Wow way to bring reproach on Christ and the church. These photos you’re spamming the forum with clearly paint God is a rather negative light.
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And the SMOKE of their torment...No eternal damnation for anyone, except the Devil
- Thread starter kleronomos
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where do we find ANYTHING WRITTEN that sets an example of FIRE ETERNAL being ETERNAL TORMENT, like this does of death and destruction being the penalty that took place?
Genesis 19:24 Then the LORD rained upon Sodom and upon Gomorrah brimstone and fire from the LORD out of heaven;
Genesis 19:25 And he overthrew those cities, and all the plain, and all the inhabitants of the cities, and that which grew upon the ground.
Genesis 19:26 But his wife looked back from behind him, and she became a pillar of salt.
Genesis 19:27 And Abraham gat up early in the morning to the place where he stood before the LORD:
Genesis 19:28 And he looked toward Sodom and Gomorrah, and toward all the land of the plain, and beheld, and, lo, the smoke of the country went up as the smoke of a furnace. (and the smoke of that torment upon them ascended for ever)
Genesis 19:29 And it came to pass, when God destroyed the cities of the plain, that God remembered Abraham, and sent Lot out of the midst of the overthrow, when he overthrew the cities in the which Lot dwelt.
THERE MUST BE ONE VERSE that GIVES AN EXAMPLE because the '2 word definitions' combined to reach a conclusion ARE NOT coming close to rendering all of this null and void, which is going to be a requirement for eternal torture to be proved correct.
If anyone is serious about an example of the penalty of "fire eternal" we have these 2 verses that say specifically what happens to unbelievers.
Rev 19:20 - But the beast was captured, and with it the false prophet who had performed the signs on its behalf. With these signs he had deluded those who had received the mark of the beast and worshiped its image. The two of them were thrown alive into the fiery lake of burning sulfur.
Rev 20:10 - And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
The blue words are the beast and FP in both verses.
The red words are where the beast, FP and the devil will be thrown into, which is the LOF.
The purple words describe the fate of those thrown into the LOF. The "they" refer to the beast, FP, and the devil and all fallen angels.
We know that all fallen angels will join the devil from Matt 25:41 - “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.
That's all there is to know what happens to unbelievers. It is perfectly clear.
It is a total presumption that the unbelievers from the GWT judgment WON'T get the same fate as the beast, FP and fallen angels.
Rev 19:20 - But the beast was captured, and with it the false prophet who had performed the signs on its behalf. With these signs he had deluded those who had received the mark of the beast and worshiped its image. The two of them were thrown alive into the fiery lake of burning sulfur.
Rev 20:10 - And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
The blue words are the beast and FP in both verses.
The red words are where the beast, FP and the devil will be thrown into, which is the LOF.
The purple words describe the fate of those thrown into the LOF. The "they" refer to the beast, FP, and the devil and all fallen angels.
We know that all fallen angels will join the devil from Matt 25:41 - “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.
That's all there is to know what happens to unbelievers. It is perfectly clear.
It is a total presumption that the unbelievers from the GWT judgment WON'T get the same fate as the beast, FP and fallen angels.
Jackson123 said:
you say death is cease to exist don’t you?
Please finish with what ALL J123 said about Jesus. He DIED ON THE CROSS. Did He "cease to exist"?
That would be the LOGICAL conclusion from your view.
you say death is cease to exist don’t you?
Please finish with what ALL J123 said about Jesus. He DIED ON THE CROSS. Did He "cease to exist"?
That would be the LOGICAL conclusion from your view.
And I answered it post 1,685. There’s a difference between the unrighteous and righteous. One is punished with destruction, they other isn’t. Do we really need to hash out if Jesus ceased to exist compared to the wicked who are destroyed forever and disappear like smoke? That question is absurd, but for Jackson I answered it anyway because maybe he sincerely needs it explained. I can respect honest questions.
I don’t believe that. I don’t think anyone is believing that. You’ll notice that it appears that one of her posts got deleted (#1,700) because it’s blank. As you know it’s impossible to post a blank comment here.
There are ways to refute something using the words of the Bible, but deferring to quips from the “atheist’s Bible commentary” and quotes from prominent atheist’s is tasteless and indefensible.
I’m reminded of when you told me to “join up with the atheists…” in post #1,109.
Now you’re defending people who cite an atheist’s Bible commentary? Unbelievable. There’s something not right going on in this thread.
There are ways to refute something using the words of the Bible, but deferring to quips from the “atheist’s Bible commentary” and quotes from prominent atheist’s is tasteless and indefensible.
I’m reminded of when you told me to “join up with the atheists…” in post #1,109.
Now you’re defending people who cite an atheist’s Bible commentary? Unbelievable. There’s something not right going on in this thread.
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You have said that death means ceasing to exist. So you don't really mean what you say then.
Then please explain why 2 human beings WILL BE tormented for ever and ever in the LOF but NONE of the rest of the unbelievers will be. I cannot find any verse that tells us that the GWT crowd won't get the same FATE as the beast and FP.
Why isn't there a verse for what you believe about the GWT crowed?
Then please explain why 2 human beings WILL BE tormented for ever and ever in the LOF but NONE of the rest of the unbelievers will be. I cannot find any verse that tells us that the GWT crowd won't get the same FATE as the beast and FP.
Why isn't there a verse for what you believe about the GWT crowed?
FreeGrace2 said:
lucy was showing the thread that your view of ECT is what atheists think about God.
Doesn't matter what you believe. She was abviously showing the whole thread views ECT the same way as you do.
[QOUTE] You’ll notice that it appears that one of her posts got deleted (#1,700) because it’s blank. As you know it’s impossible to post a blank comment here.[/QUOTE]
And? What is your point? I don't snap pics of posts and then go back to see if any got deleted.
I have. Matt 25:41 says all fallen angels will be cast into the LOF.
Rev 19:20 says the beast and FP will be cast into the LOF alive. That means their physical body with their soul.
Rev 20:10 says that the devil will JOIN the beast and FP, who are still THERE 1,000 after being cast into the LOF. So we KNOW that they will NOT be consumed, since they are still there.
Immediately following is the GWT where all the rest of the unbelievers, who get their resurrected bodies back, being thrown into the same LOF.
Yet you believe somehow they WON'T get the SAME FATE as the beast, FP and all fallen angels.
And what verse informs you of that?
Rather, she was PROVING A POINT about how atheists and YOU view ECT the SAME WAY.
Since you agree with them regarding ECT.
Sometimes the truth hurts. She nailed the fact that your emotional opinion of ECT is the SAME as atheists. That's all she was proving.
Sure. Believers who project and transfer their emotional sentiments onto God about ECT.
lucy was showing the thread that your view of ECT is what atheists think about God.
Doesn't matter what you believe. She was abviously showing the whole thread views ECT the same way as you do.
[QOUTE] You’ll notice that it appears that one of her posts got deleted (#1,700) because it’s blank. As you know it’s impossible to post a blank comment here.[/QUOTE]
And? What is your point? I don't snap pics of posts and then go back to see if any got deleted.
I have. Matt 25:41 says all fallen angels will be cast into the LOF.
Rev 19:20 says the beast and FP will be cast into the LOF alive. That means their physical body with their soul.
Rev 20:10 says that the devil will JOIN the beast and FP, who are still THERE 1,000 after being cast into the LOF. So we KNOW that they will NOT be consumed, since they are still there.
Immediately following is the GWT where all the rest of the unbelievers, who get their resurrected bodies back, being thrown into the same LOF.
Yet you believe somehow they WON'T get the SAME FATE as the beast, FP and all fallen angels.
And what verse informs you of that?
Rather, she was PROVING A POINT about how atheists and YOU view ECT the SAME WAY.
Since you agree with them regarding ECT.
Sometimes the truth hurts. She nailed the fact that your emotional opinion of ECT is the SAME as atheists. That's all she was proving.
Sure. Believers who project and transfer their emotional sentiments onto God about ECT.
In context of the unsaved it means cease to exist, which is what we’ve been talking about for dozens of pages, now suddenly you want to know of the saved cease to exist? No they don’t cease to exist. They have guaranteed eternal life.
Correct Bible interpretation relies on what the Bible confirms, not on what the Bible doesn’t confirm. The Bible doesn’t say there won’t be a kitchen sink and free pizza in the lake of fire either. So do we assume that there might be some free pizza? This is a rhetorical question using your logic to demonstrate that it isn’t a rational way to interpret the Bible. If it says two literal people are tormented forever then that’s all we can confirm. Therefore, that’s all we can know.
I’m not sure what you’re asking. I only believe as much as the Bible says.
Correct Bible interpretation relies on what the Bible confirms, not on what the Bible doesn’t confirm. The Bible doesn’t say there won’t be a kitchen sink and free pizza in the lake of fire either. So do we assume that there might be some free pizza? This is a rhetorical question using your logic to demonstrate that it isn’t a rational way to interpret the Bible. If it says two literal people are tormented forever then that’s all we can confirm. Therefore, that’s all we can know.
I’m not sure what you’re asking. I only believe as much as the Bible says.
That cartoon probably came from some atheist's mocking of what the Bible teaches. Don't you know atheists hate everything about the Bible. that post reveals their mocking of the Bible.
I see. So then, atheists have it right and the VAST majority of evangelical believers screwed totally up. Yeah, sure.
As to the ridiculous notion that God wouldn't be "humane" if He did implement ECT, have you missed the fact that "humane" refers to how humans act? God does not act like we do. He is far ABOVE mere humans.
And as to being fair, He's perfectly fair. Rom 1:19-21 teaches that God HAS REVEALED His divine power and attributes to everyone, so that no one has any excuse for NOT recognizing God as Creator and being thankful to Him.
Bur, there are many, like the fool atheists (Psa 14:1, 53:1), who still claim "there is no God". They have no excuse.
Then, there are unbelievers like Cornelius (Acts 10), who DO recognize Creator God and he sought God through prayers and alms giving.
God responds to positive volition and sent an angel to tell him to go get Peter who would bring a message by which he would be SAVED (Acts 11:14).
Cornelius is one of many who condemns the fool atheists who claim "there is no God".
So perfect God is PERFECTLY JUST to send ALL unbelievers to the LOF and ECT for ever.
You have no excuse for the beast and FP to have ECT for ever but not the rest of the unbelievers. And there is no verse that teaches that.
I see. So then, atheists have it right and the VAST majority of evangelical believers screwed totally up. Yeah, sure.
As to the ridiculous notion that God wouldn't be "humane" if He did implement ECT, have you missed the fact that "humane" refers to how humans act? God does not act like we do. He is far ABOVE mere humans.
And as to being fair, He's perfectly fair. Rom 1:19-21 teaches that God HAS REVEALED His divine power and attributes to everyone, so that no one has any excuse for NOT recognizing God as Creator and being thankful to Him.
Bur, there are many, like the fool atheists (Psa 14:1, 53:1), who still claim "there is no God". They have no excuse.
Then, there are unbelievers like Cornelius (Acts 10), who DO recognize Creator God and he sought God through prayers and alms giving.
God responds to positive volition and sent an angel to tell him to go get Peter who would bring a message by which he would be SAVED (Acts 11:14).
Cornelius is one of many who condemns the fool atheists who claim "there is no God".
So perfect God is PERFECTLY JUST to send ALL unbelievers to the LOF and ECT for ever.
You have no excuse for the beast and FP to have ECT for ever but not the rest of the unbelievers. And there is no verse that teaches that.
FreeGrace2 said:
You have said that death means ceasing to exist. So you don't really mean what you say then.
So "death" is only "death" for unbelievers. btw, where is the verse about God resurrecting any SOULS of unbelievers?
Exactly!! The Bible confirms clearly that 2 human beings will be cast into the LOF and 1,000 years later, when the devil joins THEM, they are still there and will be tormented for ever along with the devil.
Then we immediately get to the GWT judgment where all the rest of unbelievers will be cast into the SAME LOF.
Without any confirmation, you now say, "well, they WON'T be tormented day and night for ever and ever, like the first 2 humans that were cast into it."
Nah. Doesn't fly.
Nope. But you CAN'T answer WHY the first 2 humans to be cast into the LOF will have ECT but none of the rest of the humans who will be cast into the LOF. That is totally inconsistent.
Then OPEN your closed eyes and see who else gets thrown in; all the rest of the unbelievers. So why wouldn't they get the very same fate? YOU CANNOT ANSWER THAT.
You are presuming what isn't said, in spite of the trend. I am presuming nothing, but AM noticing the trend.
All creatures who will be cast into the LOF will be tormented day and night for ever and ever. That is logical.
I asked:Why isn't there a verse for what you believe about the GWT crowed?
You believe that none of the GWT crowd will have ECT, yet all the ones thrown in BEFORE the GWT crowd WILL have ECT.
That is illogical.
You have said that death means ceasing to exist. So you don't really mean what you say then.
So "death" is only "death" for unbelievers. btw, where is the verse about God resurrecting any SOULS of unbelievers?
Exactly!! The Bible confirms clearly that 2 human beings will be cast into the LOF and 1,000 years later, when the devil joins THEM, they are still there and will be tormented for ever along with the devil.
Then we immediately get to the GWT judgment where all the rest of unbelievers will be cast into the SAME LOF.
Without any confirmation, you now say, "well, they WON'T be tormented day and night for ever and ever, like the first 2 humans that were cast into it."
Nah. Doesn't fly.
Nope. But you CAN'T answer WHY the first 2 humans to be cast into the LOF will have ECT but none of the rest of the humans who will be cast into the LOF. That is totally inconsistent.
Then OPEN your closed eyes and see who else gets thrown in; all the rest of the unbelievers. So why wouldn't they get the very same fate? YOU CANNOT ANSWER THAT.
You are presuming what isn't said, in spite of the trend. I am presuming nothing, but AM noticing the trend.
All creatures who will be cast into the LOF will be tormented day and night for ever and ever. That is logical.
I asked:Why isn't there a verse for what you believe about the GWT crowed?
You believe that none of the GWT crowd will have ECT, yet all the ones thrown in BEFORE the GWT crowd WILL have ECT.
That is illogical.