Anti-denominational followers of Jesus

[ChristianTonyB]

If it says "as was His custom" then it must be in reference to before he started his ministry, because this incident WAS the start of Jesus ministry. He was baptised in Jordan the Spirit came upon him in the bodily shape of a dove. He was lead by the Spirit in the wilderness to be tempted of the devil. He came out of the wilderness in the Power of the Spirit and went into the Synagogue 'As was his custom" before all this, before the baptism at Jordan. And He read the prophesy of Isaiah saying "The Spirit has sent me... " And thus his ministry began.

Now I don't think Jesus going to synagogue as custom all of his life is relative to how we attend church or worship in the NT church but He certainly did attend Synagogue as a custom before he began His ministry.

Yes, that's true. But we don't know what He did everytime He went into a synagogue. And His ministry was far broader than His attendance at synagogues. He wasn't /isn't into religiosity except for the kind that James described. Judging by the way He walked and talked amongst the people, I assume that's what He mostly did when He visited the synagogues during His ministry here. As a norm, He wouldn't have rubbed shoulders with the religious elite or those that associated with them, who were hard of hearing.

 

[ChristianTonyB]

I understand brother. I wish more understood we each have different walks.

There is only one, true, narrow path to walk, but we all have differing needs as we travel along that path. As I understand it, God requires compassion from us towards others. If we have a spirit that criticises and condemns those in need of godly support, we obviously aren't being compassionate!

 

[Willow]

There is only one, true, narrow path to walk, but we all have differing needs as we travel along that path. As I understand it, God requires compassion from us towards others. If we have a spirit that criticises and condemns those in need of godly support, we obviously aren't being compassionate!

I was referring to those who worry about everyone's dress and what they eat and how they pray. Years ago I was condemned for wearing pants to church. Someone had it in their mind that our walk with God includes being fashionable the way they feel led to dress.So if you feel led not to go to church because your not wanting to be labeled by a denomination that is your walk,amen.

 

[Beckie]

Yes, that's true. But we don't know what He did everytime He went into a synagogue

Yes, we do not know . The rest of your post is speculation.

 

[ChristianTonyB]

I was referring to those who worry about everyone's dress and what they eat and how they pray. Years ago I was condemned for wearing pants to church. Someone had it in their mind that our walk with God includes being fashionable the way they feel led to dress.So if you feel led not to go to church because your not wanting to be labeled by a denomination that is your walk,amen.

The most important thing for anyone in their 'walk' in my opinion, is to learn how to hear Jesus' voice, and follow Him. There are heaps of distractions out there, in the world and in the church, many dead ends. We all have to work on our own salvation with all fear and trembling, being cautious and careful every step of the way.

 

[ChristianTonyB]

Provided someone's heart is right with God and they would be a good addition to a local fellowship and not be one who causes division and lack of unity, if they cry out to God in faith and ask Him to lead them to a good local fellowship that they can SERVE the body of Christ and be active in evangelism and find fellowship and friends to live life with, then God will lead them to one near them.

Of course if they are messed up and not going to play nice, then He won't. He does not want them to cause division and won't let them know about that good local fellowship near them.

So even though I want to say that there is a good local fellowship near most people, I don't think some people should be going to it. That body of believers doesn't need that grief. LOL.

This is a bit of a dilemma that needs a lot of thought...on how to interact with a new (or long term) Christian that is carrying a lot of bad baggage from the past. We have to try and accommodate them, but at the same time keeping careful watch to make sure no other members are hurt or drawn into sin by any newcomer's ungodly behaviour. If there is an elder present in the group, then he is charged to watch over and make sure everyone's needs are catered for.

It begs the question too, that if the group meets in someone’s home, how can we make sure they and any family are protected from harm? A Christian‘s family home should be a safe haven for its occupants, and free from any kind of threatening behaviour.

My thoughts are, it's best to first meet in a public place anyone claiming to be a Christian or asking questions about Christianity, and only ask them to visit you at your home after you have been able to gauge their integrity. I might be sounding over protective here, but I have had experiences which proved that careful analysis was prudent before inviting any stranger into your home.

 

[ChristianTonyB]

This is a great video by Joshua Chavez (Servus Christi). It's been a while since I watched it but I'm planning on watching it again today.

Thanks for sharing this RA. I agree with the thrust of his claim, and complaint.

I also wondered why he seemed to be excluding the need for pastors, but I see you have said that wouldn't be the case. Of course, if the fellowship group is small, there may not be a need to appoint a pastor to watch over them, they can watch over each other.

 

[Beckie]

Thanks for sharing this RA. I agree with the thrust of his claim, and complaint.

I also wondered why he seemed to be excluding the need for pastors, but I see you have said that wouldn't be the case. Of course, if the fellowship group is small, there may not be a need to appoint a pastor to watch over them, they can watch over each other.

Eph_4:11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;

 

[JohnDB]

Eph_4:11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;

I have recently figured out that relationships teach more than any single lesson ever thought about.

I mean some people go about (as I once did) listening and reading various sermons...to try and learn something.

But the greatest changes in people's lives comes from the relationships they have formed with other Christians who encourage acts of kindness, grace, mercy, and forgiveness.

It's not a emotional decision made on the spur of the moment after a heartfelt sermon....those things last as long as New Years resolutions....absolutely forgotten to the point of not even having guilt over them by Valentines day.

But ongoing friendships and encouragements by a friend or group of friends really does make a difference to all of us in our attitudes and behaviors.

To me, the lines are somewhat blurry over formalized titles vx what role God places us in. I tend to think that the more I have learned has taught me that the less I really know.

 

[Mofastus]

with the Gentiles that claim to be Christian/Christ's followers yet obviously aren't.

I remain hopeful for every believer to find God for themselves in their own walk in knowing Him and His promised liberty.

 

[Amanuensis]

I am one of those believers that equates no church attendance to backsliding in most cases. I just can imagine a fully surrendered Christian staying home on Sunday Morning. This part of Christian

This is a bit of a dilemma that needs a lot of thought...on how to interact with a new (or long term) Christian that is carrying a lot of bad baggage from the past. We have to try and accommodate them, but at the same time keeping careful watch to make sure no other members are hurt or drawn into sin by any newcomer's ungodly behaviour. If there is an elder present in the group, then he is charged to watch over and make sure everyone's needs are catered for.

It begs the question too, that if the group meets in someone’s home, how can we make sure they and any family are protected from harm? A Christian‘s family home should be a safe haven for its occupants, and free from any kind of threatening behaviour.

My thoughts are, it's best to first meet in a public place anyone claiming to be a Christian or asking questions about Christianity, and only ask them to visit you at your home after you have been able to gauge their integrity. I might be sounding over protective here, but I have had experiences which proved that careful analysis was prudent before inviting any stranger into your home.

I agree. I don't care for home fellowships. I am glad you are for meeting with saints in a public place with an elder involved. I was worried you were going to stay isolated until Jesus comes. We have progress.

 

[ResidentAlien]

Thanks for sharing this RA. I agree with the thrust of his claim, and complaint.

I also wondered why he seemed to be excluding the need for pastors, but I see you have said that wouldn't be the case. Of course, if the fellowship group is small, there may not be a need to appoint a pastor to watch over them, they can watch over each other.

The idea of a "head" or "lead" pastor is foreign to the New Testament. The Greek word, often translated "pastor," is poimén meaning shepherd. And in 1 Peter 5:3-4 we read: "nor as being lords over those entrusted to you, but being examples to the flock; and when the Chief Shepherd (archipoimén) appears, you will receive the crown of glory that does not fade away.

Christ is our chief pastor, or shepherd.

 

[Amanuensis]

The idea of a "head" or "lead" pastor is foreign to the New Testament. The Greek word, often translated "pastor," is poimén meaning shepherd. And in 1 Peter 5:3-4 we read: "nor as being lords over those entrusted to you, but being examples to the flock; and when the Chief Shepherd (archipoimén) appears, you will receive the crown of glory that does not fade away.

Christ is our chief pastor, or shepherd.

A dictator shepherd was never the intended model. However, lead spokespersons were indeed a part of the organic model of the original assembly.

In Acts 15 we read about how elders discussed the issue of the answer to be given to those that thought circumcision should be required for gentiles. After they discuss then James gives the decision. This model was probably similar at the beginning of local churches. There were elders, they discussed things, and there was probably a main spokes person who played a larger role in preaching and teaching and leadership.

 

[ResidentAlien]

A dictator shepherd was never the intended model. However, lead spokespersons were indeed a part of the organic model of the original assembly.

In Acts 15 we read about how elders discussed the issue of the answer to be given to those that thought circumcision should be required for gentiles. After they discuss then James gives the decision. This model was probably similar at the beginning of local churches. There were elders, they discussed things, and there was probably a main spokes person who played a larger role in preaching and teaching and leadership.

There were no doubt some who were leaders and who were looked to as influential, but where did anyone ever refer to James as "head spokesperson?" Or anyone as "head anything," except Christ?

Do you think James introduced himself as "James, head spokesperson, Jerusalem assembly?"

 

[Amanuensis]

There were no doubt some who were leaders and who were looked to as influential, but where did anyone ever refer to James as "head spokesperson?" Or anyone as "head anything," except Christ?

Do you think James introduced himself as "James, head spokesperson, Jerusalem assembly?"

I don't think it was a title.

It is no surprise that the early church adopted a functioning order that included leaders who spoke on behalf of the group. James seems to have been given that role. It's just how groups function.

Paul said he seemed to be some kind of Pillar along with Peter and it really did not matter to Paul, he was going to speak the truth of the Holy Spirit regardless. But even this observation by Paul helps us to see that an organization had developed with recognizable leadership.

I am sure that James or Peter did not carry the title "Pillar."

We know that God gives the gifts of apostles, prophets, teachers, pastors, evangelists, and if you want to use the Greek words for these it still means that God calls men to serve in these leadership ministries in the church today.

I agree that many who have these jobs are not called, not gifted, and also many who may be called are not doing their jobs, but the fact remains that it is God's plan to have ministry leaders who are full of the Holy Spirit and pray and lead. By whatever name or title.

I mean even we look at Timothy appointing elders in Ephesus we get the impression that Timothy is playing the lead elder role. So there is biblical support for this model.

 

[ResidentAlien]

I don't think it was a title.

It is no surprise that the early church adopted a functioning order that included leaders who spoke on behalf of the group. James seems to have been given that role. It's just how groups function.

Paul said he seemed to be some kind of Pillar along with Peter and it really did not matter to Paul, he was going to speak the truth of the Holy Spirit regardless. But even this observation by Paul helps us to see that an organization had developed with recognizable leadership.

I am sure that James or Peter did not carry the title "Pillar."

We know that God gives the gifts of apostles, prophets, teachers, pastors, evangelists, and if you want to use the Greek words for these it still means that God calls men to serve in these leadership ministries in the church today.

I agree that many who have these jobs are not called, not gifted, and also many who may be called are not doing their jobs, but the fact remains that it is God's plan to have ministry leaders who are full of the Holy Spirit and pray and lead. By whatever name or title.

I mean even we look at Timothy appointing elders in Ephesus we get the impression that Timothy is playing the lead elder role. So there is biblical support for this model.

It's very simple. Just show me from scripture one example of a "lead pastor" or "lead elder" hired by a congregation to run the show.

 

[Amanuensis]

It's very simple. Just show me from scripture one example of a "lead pastor" or "lead elder" hired by a congregation to run the show.

I think I did. I mentioned Timothy appointed elders in Ephesus.

Show me one example of a worship team. Show me one example of a Youth Pastor. Show me one example of a Bus ministry to pick up kids in a neighborhood near the church building. Show me one example of a nursing home ministry. Show me one example of a an out reach pastor who organizes and gets people from the church involved in outreaches.

The Church has the freedom to grow dynamically and organically to meet the needs in the local assembly as they meet together and serve Christ and live life together, and as they attempt to reach the lost with the Gospel. If as they go about doing that they develop a lead pastor model along with elders, deacons, outreach leaders, youth pastors, children pastors, worship team leaders, etc they have that freedom to do so. It is neither wrong or right in a New Testament Legalistic code book on exact methods of local assembly organization and leadership models.

Pray, seek God as a body, and develop the model that works for you. It's that simple. Let the Holy Spirit be in charge and the scriptures as your guide. There is a reason it is not all spelled out like the Law of Moses for temple cultic practices as that is not the way the Church was to operate. Looking for a scripture that says this is exactly how it must be organized won't work. Praying and hearing from the Holy Spirit as needs arise is the model.

And most good churches that have a lead pastor also have a board that votes on major decisions and the pastor does not go against those decisions. Many lead pastors have testimonies about how much they appreciate the board model because they would have done things they would have later regretted without those checks and balances in place.

A lead pastor should not be a dictator running the show. You can have a lead pastor that is more like a "pillar" and a "spokes person" for the governing body.

Every church is unique and we can't just say all lead pastor models are unbiblical. The bible does not support that assumption.

 

[RichMan]

Another thread where people try to justify their refusing to follow the command to assemble.
They seem to be looking for others that agree with them 100% without considering they may be the ones in the wrong. And I believe those who refuse to assemble are wrong in most of their beliefs.
There are no perfect local churches. Never has been.
We all should find a local church to serve with. NO EXCUSES.

 

[Beckie]

man o man wants his will at any cost the scriptures are clear in the appointments but that is not good enough for arrogant man.

Eph 4:11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;

Do we really need to rewrite the scriptures

And he gave some, lead apostles; and some, lead prophets; and some, lead evangelists; and some, lead pastors and lead teachers;

It's very simple. Just show me from scripture one example of a "lead pastor" or "lead elder" hired by a congregation to run the show.

This post shows how much lead pastors or shepherds are needed and truly needed by those who dont want them. The susbtilness of the change of God Word in the Garden


man = humans not just males

 

[arthurfleminger]

It's very simple. Just show me from scripture one example of a "lead pastor" or "lead elder" hired by a congregation to run the show.

Show me one from one scripture that the Bible will be used as a dictionary or a history reference. Show me one scripture reference that even mentions the Bible, Old and New Testament combined.

Scripture was never meant to be used as a history or science book. And there is ample and provable evidence outside scripture to show there were indeed bishops/oveerseers in the Apolostic church.

You choose to ignore history to fit your beliefs. It is simple to research the structure of the Apolostilic Church, the Church that Jesus founded. From these documents we learn that the Church of the first two centuries had a definite governing structure, consisting of four principle offices: the bishop, the presbyters, the deacons, and the laity. Early Church Hierarchy | First Century Church Structure (hierarchystructure.com)

Of course you don't want these things to be true, so you try and prove your point by saying these historical facts aren't listed in the Bible. You try and make the Bible fit your beliefs rather than making your beliefs fit God's word in Scripture.