Any Strong Apologists want to discuss things?

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Which Talmud the Babylonian or Palestinian? There were brief claims to a Yeshu. Christians claim that Yeshu in the Talmud refers to Jesus. However, this Yeshu, according to scholars depicts a disciple of Jehoshua Ben-Perachia at least a century before the alleged Christian Jesus or it may refer to Yeshu ben Pandera, a teacher of the 2nd centuy CE. Regardless of how one interprets this, the Palestinian Talmud didn't come into existence until the 3rd and 5th century C.E., and the Babylonian Talmud between the 3rd and 6th century C.E., at least two centuries after the alleged crucifixion. At best it can only serve as a controversial Christian or Jewish legend; it cannot possibly serve as evidence for a historical Jesus.

I've been pointed there before.


exactly... but you're still not seeing it... **

so what you are failing to see is these things were wrote during and after his lifetime just as AUTOBIOGRAPHIES are done today... so how can a HOLY BIBLE speak of a messiah before he was ever born... and then happen just as stated?

so much knowledge mankind has... yet common sense went out the window... for we always miss the little things to see the bigger picture.
 
I think you are somewhat mistaken. Yes I do not believe in the bible or in Jesus. I said nothing of anyone's personal experiences. What baffles me is why well over a billion people identify as Christian yet there is no evidence of Jesus' existence and/or the validity of the bible. I've been searching for answers on this for several years and haven't found a single shred of evidence to confirm the existence and validity of Jesus and the bible respectively. I would never dismiss or otherwise disrespect someone's personal experiences. I'm just looking for answers that no one has been able to provide yet. That's why I wanted to discuss it with a strong apologetic. Is that you?

We would like to review your references for your assertions.

You can start with your assertion regarding the number of Christians in the world.
 
the most substantial and enduring historical evidence that Jesus was an actual human being is christianity itself. the historical written record of that is the bible. how odd that people seem to forget that these are historical eye witness accounts .
 
the most substantial and enduring historical evidence that Jesus was an actual human being is christianity itself. the historical written record of that is the bible. how odd that people seem to forget that these are historical eye witness accounts .

Are there really any eyewitness accounts? Or was it just Paul SAYING that there were eyewitnesses?
The gospel writers claimed to have "visions" of Jesus but of course everything they wrote was
decades after the death of Jesus.
 
please ponder the historical context --

also in the NT, the Jews constantly tried to explain away the "miracles" associated with Jesus, by denying Super-natural Intervention; and preferring entirely-terrestrial, natural "scientific" (as it were) explanations. In the NT, the Jews claimed that Jesus' followers stole the body from the tomb.

So, that Talmud story is another of many Jewish "scientific natural" explanations, for what Christians consider to have been Super-natural miracles. Mary wound up pregnant; Christians perceived Divine Intervention; Jews looked around, and in order to deny Divine Intervention, explained her pregnancy away, by attributing the same to philandering fraternization with some soldier.

Historically, a Hellenized Jew, from Sidon, named "Obadiah the Panther" (Greek Abdes Pantera) joined the Roman army, and served as standard-bearer, in the first cohort of archers, in Judea, circa 30 AD, by which time he seemingly had earned Roman citizenship, so taking the surname "Tiberias Julius", under the Roman emperor Tiberias. "Obadiah the Panther" seems to have been fairly famous -- that story, recorded in the Talmud, was also known to (anti-Christian pagan) Greek philosophers (namely Celsus), in the 2nd century AD. Mary may have been observed once, in the vague vicinity, of "Obadiah the Panther", and imaginations got the best of (some) people.

ever read the Jewish Talmud... i have.

it's out there but they do make several references about a man who came claiming to be GOD and did many miracles... yet they say he was born from a jewish soldier named Panthero and that Mary slept with him out of wedlock and that is why Mary married Joseph so that she wouldn't be stoned of her shame... also says that Mary was a hair dresser...
 
facts, logic, & reasoning can (in principle) prove everything that is true.

As of circa 2000 AD, humans on earth do not possess all the facts, about the cosmos / universe we inhabit.

As a result of lack of information, logic & reasoning (for which "science" is a fancy term) cannot prove everything that is true. Meanwhile, logic & reasoning can dis-prove bogusness.

The claim that "'God in heaven' is mysteriously strangely inexplicable" is a claim, not based on facts, logic, or reasoning. "God in heaven" is (supposedly) a Super-Intelligent living Being, capable of communicating voice & data (Voices & Visions), from heaven, into humans on earth (and also other terrestrial animals, e.g. birds, bears, whales), thereby manipulating their minds, to do what "God in heaven" Desires. "God in heaven" can also, by qualitatively similar means, transmit "Holy Spirit" signals into earth itself, e.g. to trigger earthquakes.

So, "God in heaven" is a Super-Intelligent Life-form, in heaven, capable of communicating information, from heaven, to earth, so influencing terrestrial biology & geology ("manipulating minds & triggering earth-quake faults to slip").

Sufficient reasoning, logic, & facts could (hypothetically) explain what "God in heaven" Is (some-earth-day, if there's time-on-earth).

Something people need to remember is truth does not change. Ever. We can deny it. Refuse to accept it and pretend it doesn't exist, but the truth will always be the same.
There are many things science cannot prove. Science cannot prove the supernatural. Yet people try all the time to prove or disprove it.
 
Regarding the existence of Jesus -

When backed into a corner during a debate, even Richard Dawkins quickly changed his official position, and admitted Jesus was a real historical figure.

His prior position, in a real debate, was quickly shown to be untenable.
 
Mere words could never be convincing.
Only Holy Spirit.
Would you be willing to ask God to reveal himself to you?
He knows your currency; He's willing.
Are you?
 
Well I guess the prime question is how do you know Jesus even existed? There are no contemporary to Jesus accounts of him ever having existed by either his followers or the general population. The first writings about Jesus came some 37-38 years after his death by people who were born after his death.
Let's see if I can give you a reasonable argument (that is the correct use of apologetics, making my faith reasonable, though not proven, right?)

Let me build it logically. We have the ability to imagine worlds that do not exist, and to work in them (as in fiction and videogames). We also have knowledge whose validity is not guaranteed in the world (2+2=4 for example, but if you take your money and count it, the government takes some away, so the equation might not be valid.) There is no evolutionary reason for us to have either of these, no survival value; they serve no purpose in the world itself. Next, we have a sense of "better". This sense seems particular to humans, so it seems not to fit a random world as well. For all these reasons, it is reasonable to believe in some force external to the universe giving it meaning that we can sense. (Again, not proved, just explained why.)

There are many people who feel this way, and many approaches, systems or paradigms to how to respond to this force. One is the belief that this force is, in fact, a person, and has communicated with us at various times and places. i accpet this one for reasons I will state. Further, I accept that a person, Jesus, lived on earth, as His personal emissary, in fact His son, and taught, acted, and died in a way that might bring us closer to God. This is what we call Christianity.

Okay, why this one approach, and not the many others? In math, some answers are closer than others. 2+2=5 is less wrong than 2+2=1000. I believe it is the same here. Christianity offers me several things that the other approaches do not. Freedom to be fully me, assurances that I am loved, personal experiences, happy eternity, etc. Many of these, but not all are offered by other systems. But here is the decider: Christianity is the only religion containing any promise beyond earthly life that offers proof of what it says that works now in this life.

We cannot prove the Bible is anymore than a fictional story with some archeology here and there. We cannot prove Jesus ever lived. We cannot prove He died. That He rose. That He ascended. But we can prove that He is at the right hand of the Father right now, interceding for us. If the other things were not true, that could not be true, because all these things we cannot prove must happen in the order I gave, before the last can occur. If I can prove the last, I prove the entire chain that led up to it, from Genesis 1:1 up to and including the ascension and His position in heaven now.

So how do I prove his position? Because it works. I have learned through experience and teaching to apply and share the life what I believe has taught me. Every day, I see person after person who will follow what I know, be set free from guilt, empowered to love and serve, given new purpose and hope. There is no other explanation possible. This does not happen in Islam, witchcraft, Buddhism, of any other system you care to name. Any of those systems requires performance of certain actions and thoughts. Christianity requires only cooperative reception of what we call grace. Something must be getting that grace from outside the visible world, because we do not do anything to get it for ourselves, it seems to come from nowhere, and that is exactly what Jesus said He will do (if the Bible is true) is have the Father give us that grace, and the Father is our name for that force.

I believe what I believe, because it resonates in the human heart, and fills human longing like nothing else. It's the 4 to the 2+2 when everyone else is saying 5, or 6, or 1000.
 
Well I guess the prime question is how do you know Jesus even existed? There are no contemporary to Jesus accounts of him ever having existed by either his followers or the general population. The first writings about Jesus came some 37-38 years after his death by people who were born after his death.

How did you get the info on "The first writings about Jesus came some 37-38 years after his death.."? Please list a source.
 
I have many questions why Christians believe in Jesus and the bible. Wondered if there was anybody that wanted to take a shot at explaining it to me. We can do it in PM or in open forum I don't mind which. I'm not using a computer at the moment so chat is not an option until maybe Monday. Im on my smartphone at my lake house.


What would like to discuss ? Also will you be able to back up your cliam by useing Chapters and Verses ?
 
You assume people believe that history too.
Read these forums, many people believe the opposite of what's reported.
Iz uh con-speer-see. See?
lol still:rolleyes:
okay. i'll bite.
do you believe christopher columbus discovered america, like yer history books tell ya?
and what really happened to spark the Boer War(s) - did it happen like dem history books told ya?
and is Ida, the 47 million year old 8th wonder of the world the missing link between men and monkeys in evolution?

ahem
lalalalalalala
hi still.:)
 
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whoa....look at that super-cool flag!

feel like i'm at woodstock, man.

Seychelles.jpg


Seychelles. who knew?

Seychelles (i/seɪˈʃɛlz/ say-shelz; French: [sɛʃɛl]), officially the Republic of Seychelles (French: République des Seychelles; Creole: Repiblik Sesel), is a 115-island country spanning an archipelago in the Indian Ocean, some 1,500 kilometres (932 mi) east of mainland Africa, northeast of the island of Madagascar.

220px-Anse_Source_d%27Argent_2-La_Digue.jpg


oh ya...i'm there.




simple things and shiny objects are good.
end derailment.
sorry
 
Even the Orthodox Jewish community acknowlodges the historocity of Jesus. For them, it has never been a question of whether he existed, but rather a question of an accurate recording of Jesus' life, words, claims, actions, ressurection, etc. Despite the various writings of Jesus (Bible, Talmud, Gnostic Gospels, etc.), one can always claim the written records are false, insufficient, or falsified by someone like Constantine to control the poulation. The fact is, the only way to prove it emperically is if you can create time travel.
A prime example of that is in even closer history is the Nazi Death Camp deniers, and some of them are outstanding apologists to their viewpoint. And much of what they say is possible; the lies, coverups, and fasilsified photos are possibilities. But the general public (including myself) find the historical accounts true, and have never questioned the historocity of it.
Not to say that this comparison is an exact parallel, given the time frame, records, use of photography, etc., which causes Christianity to deserve greater scrutiny than the existance of death camps, but it helps make the point.

So what it truely boils down to after you have done all the research is what Piper27 said a couple posts back:

"Mere words could never be convincing.
Only Holy Spirit.
Would you be willing to ask God to reveal himself to you?
He knows your currency; He's willing.
Are you?"
 
Even the Orthodox Jewish community acknowlodges the historocity of Jesus. For them, it has never been a question of whether he existed, but rather a question of an accurate recording of Jesus' life, words, claims, actions, ressurection, etc. Despite the various writings of Jesus (Bible, Talmud, Gnostic Gospels, etc.), one can always claim the written records are false, insufficient, or falsified by someone like Constantine to control the poulation. The fact is, the only way to prove it emperically is if you can create time travel.
A prime example of that is in even closer history is the Nazi Death Camp deniers, and some of them are outstanding apologists to their viewpoint. And much of what they say is possible; the lies, coverups, and fasilsified photos are possibilities. But the general public (including myself) find the historical accounts true, and have never questioned the historocity of it.
Not to say that this comparison is an exact parallel, given the time frame, records, use of photography, etc., which causes Christianity to deserve greater scrutiny than the existance of death camps, but it helps make the point.

So what it truely boils down to after you have done all the research is what Piper27 said a couple posts back:

"Mere words could never be convincing.
Only Holy Spirit.
Would you be willing to ask God to reveal himself to you?
He knows your currency; He's willing.
Are you?"

that's a terrible comparison.
amazing.
 
that's a terrible comparison.
amazing.

I said it wasn't an exact parallel, meany pants.
The point was to show how people accept and reject historical recordings and the somewhat impossibility of empirical proof.

Wait a minute, I rememeber you. Your that gal that rejects almost all historical recordings and scientific findings, and stuff about how the earth is flat or the center of the universe (can't remember) and some secret society is behind it all and in control of the world. I saw some of your posts a couple weeks back. Fun read. A little confusing at times, but fun read.