Apologetics: witnessing to atheists
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Look at you quoting OT.Yes, this is very true, either we are blessed or we are cursed, Jesus came to save us from the curse but not everyone accepts this free gift by abiding in Him John 15:10 1 John 2:6 John 15:4
Yes, and God enables everyone to make the choice to accept Christ or not by ensuring even sinners retain the divine image, which refers to God-consciousness and MFW or conscience that makes humanity different from animals.
My original post wasn't about my own sinfulness, but whether or not it was possible to live sinlessly. So why would I mention whether or not I personally still sin. It wasn't relevant to the post. Nor have I made a claim that I live sinlessly continuously. But by your own admission, you posted it is possible to live sinlessly. Yet you admonish me for believing something you have attested to as being true.
Honestly I spend nearly as much time on this site explaining what I haven't said as what I have said.
I think your OP was this: "By walking under the influence of the Spirit, one can actually live sin free. But this isn't accomplished through an act our will focusing on the law. No one ever kept the law by trying to keep the law. The motions of sin in the flesh will guarantee the failure of this approach. See James 1 for the anatomy of sin. Rather, our effort should be to humble ourselves and divorcing ourselves from any effort, we empty ourselves to be filled with an alternative Director. He Who cannot sin, will keep us in all righteousness as He propels us. Perhaps a thread concerning what it is to actually walk in the Spirit is warranted.":
My observation was that if the cofounder of the NT did not claim perfection per PHP 3:12, then we should realize that living sin-free by walking in the Spirit is an earthly goal per PHP 3:14, but not something we should expect to surpass Paul on by achieving it this side of heaven even by humbling or emptying ourselves, so having a thread on that subject would be a useless and prideful exercise.
Right...your point was irrelevant to the discussion at hand. Perfection was not the issue, but how commandments can be kept.
And Paul didn't co-found the NT. The Spirit is the lone author.
And while I believe the Apostle to be an incredible person and probably a devout and holy man, my guess is he would have applauded those who sought to walk in holiness and encouraged it. Even God Himself encourages us to be holy as He is holy. But again, not the substance of my post regardless of how hard you try to make it so.
"actually live sin free" would be pretty perfect, thus
"how commandments can be kept" perfectly WAS the issue
God's HS inspired Paul to write most of the NT including the gospels by his assistants Mark and Luke
Seeking to walk in holiness was what Paul said he did not claim to do perfectly
Encouragement is not the same as achievement
And this response is in reply to the substance of your post #365
I believe Paul's teaching in 2CR 5:7 that we live by faith rather than sight regarding God or ultimate reality and that life presents humanity with the choice between two opposing faiths, God/Christ or atheism, just as A&E had to choose between believing God or the serpent and Moses presented the Israelites with the choice between life and death in DT 30:19. This volition is what makes normal human souls accountable when they refuse to cooperate with God and thus justly condemned to hell unless they repent.
I try to obey the command of Peter in 1PT 3:15-16 to share reasons for having confidence that the best belief regarding how to be saved from hell is in the NT God and Gospel of Christ.
I think any open-minded truthseeker who compares the NT teachings of Jesus and Paul with the founding scriptures of other religions will conclude that the NT is inspired by God, because its concept of one God as the just and all-loving Judge is spiritually highest and the evidence for the resurrection of Jesus is most credible. The NT hope for heaven is based on evidence in support of Jesus’ claim to be Messiah/Christ, which includes: the prophecy or foreshadowing of His life (in various OT scriptures, including IS 53 and PS 22, and by the sacrificial system), the purpose of His death (as explained in the NT, such as HB 7:18-10:18), and the probability or credibility of His resurrection (in history as recorded by the last chapters of the Gospels and RM 1:3-4).
Because sinful humanity retains the image of God or moral free will to choose what to believe, Paul went “every Sabbath to the synagogue, trying to persuade Jews and Greeks” (ACTS 18:4)! “He witnessed to them from morning till evening, explaining about the kingdom of God, and from the Law of Moses and from the Prophets he tried to persuade them about Jesus.” (ACTS 28:23b) “Some were convinced by what he said, but others would not believe. (ACTS 28:24) They disagreed among themselves and began to leave after Paul made this final statement: The Holy Spirit spoke the truth to your ancestors when he said through Isaiah the prophet, “You will be ever hearing but never understanding; you will be ever seeing but never perceiving, for this people’s heart has become calloused.” (ACTS 28:25-27a)
I try to obey the command of Peter in 1PT 3:15-16 to share reasons for having confidence that the best belief regarding how to be saved from hell is in the NT God and Gospel of Christ.
I think any open-minded truthseeker who compares the NT teachings of Jesus and Paul with the founding scriptures of other religions will conclude that the NT is inspired by God, because its concept of one God as the just and all-loving Judge is spiritually highest and the evidence for the resurrection of Jesus is most credible. The NT hope for heaven is based on evidence in support of Jesus’ claim to be Messiah/Christ, which includes: the prophecy or foreshadowing of His life (in various OT scriptures, including IS 53 and PS 22, and by the sacrificial system), the purpose of His death (as explained in the NT, such as HB 7:18-10:18), and the probability or credibility of His resurrection (in history as recorded by the last chapters of the Gospels and RM 1:3-4).
Because sinful humanity retains the image of God or moral free will to choose what to believe, Paul went “every Sabbath to the synagogue, trying to persuade Jews and Greeks” (ACTS 18:4)! “He witnessed to them from morning till evening, explaining about the kingdom of God, and from the Law of Moses and from the Prophets he tried to persuade them about Jesus.” (ACTS 28:23b) “Some were convinced by what he said, but others would not believe. (ACTS 28:24) They disagreed among themselves and began to leave after Paul made this final statement: The Holy Spirit spoke the truth to your ancestors when he said through Isaiah the prophet, “You will be ever hearing but never understanding; you will be ever seeing but never perceiving, for this people’s heart has become calloused.” (ACTS 28:25-27a)
Paul taught the importance of continuing to learn God’s Word (LGW) in 2TM 3:14-17, saying “Continue in what you have learned and have been convinced of, because you know those from whom you learned it, and how from infancy you have known the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, so that the servant of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.”
Several things in this pericope are worth noting:
1. “Continue” speaks of perseverance.
2. “Convinced” speaks of confident faith rather than of absolute certainty.
3. “Learning GW from infancy” refers to God’s “plan A” for parenting.
4. “Able” speaks of humanity having volition or faith to seek–or not (MT 7:7, RM 3:11).
5. “All Scripture is God-breathed and useful…” refers to the reason God inspired the OT and NT canons.
6. “Servant of God” means “muslim”.
7. “Equipped” refers to having spiritual armor by which to defeat the devil’s schemes (EPH 6:10-18).
8. “Teaching” implies LGW as the main method of becoming mature or fully equipped, which means having humility = teachability.
Paul explains how LGW may be accomplished in EPH 4:11-13: “Christ himself gave the apostles, the prophets, the evangelists, the pastors and teachers to equip his people for works of service, so that the body of Christ may be built up until we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of the Son of God and become mature, attaining to the whole measure of the fullness of Christ.”
Unity in the faith was the prayer of Jesus: "My prayer is... that all of them may be one, Father... so that the world may believe that you have sent me... that they may be one as we are one... that they may be brought to complete unity. Then the world will know that you sent me and have loved them even as you have loved me." (JN 17:20-23)
And the hope of Paul: "Watch out for those who cause divisions and put obstacles in your way that are contrary to the teaching you have learned. Keep away from them, for such people are not serving the Lord Christ, but their own appetites." (RM 16:17-18a, cf. 1CR 12:10&25, TIT 3:10)
Several things in this pericope are worth noting:
1. “Continue” speaks of perseverance.
2. “Convinced” speaks of confident faith rather than of absolute certainty.
3. “Learning GW from infancy” refers to God’s “plan A” for parenting.
4. “Able” speaks of humanity having volition or faith to seek–or not (MT 7:7, RM 3:11).
5. “All Scripture is God-breathed and useful…” refers to the reason God inspired the OT and NT canons.
6. “Servant of God” means “muslim”.
7. “Equipped” refers to having spiritual armor by which to defeat the devil’s schemes (EPH 6:10-18).
8. “Teaching” implies LGW as the main method of becoming mature or fully equipped, which means having humility = teachability.
Paul explains how LGW may be accomplished in EPH 4:11-13: “Christ himself gave the apostles, the prophets, the evangelists, the pastors and teachers to equip his people for works of service, so that the body of Christ may be built up until we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of the Son of God and become mature, attaining to the whole measure of the fullness of Christ.”
Unity in the faith was the prayer of Jesus: "My prayer is... that all of them may be one, Father... so that the world may believe that you have sent me... that they may be one as we are one... that they may be brought to complete unity. Then the world will know that you sent me and have loved them even as you have loved me." (JN 17:20-23)
And the hope of Paul: "Watch out for those who cause divisions and put obstacles in your way that are contrary to the teaching you have learned. Keep away from them, for such people are not serving the Lord Christ, but their own appetites." (RM 16:17-18a, cf. 1CR 12:10&25, TIT 3:10)
I began this thread regarding witnessing to atheists by discussing a logical train of thought rather than the Bible. I opined that reality is interconnected or unified, so that it is not necessary to worry about where to start exploring, but I began like Descartes by asking whether there is some truth which is not debatable--which everyone believes at least implicitly and uses as a common point of departure in discussing ultimate reality?
I proposed that there is such axiomatic truth, because in order to study reality it appears that one must (logically or implicitly) begin by assuming at least the reality of the student, so that absolute skepticism in philosophy is like absolute zero in physics: it serves as a hypothetical point that is not actually achieved or else nothing would happen. However, I acknowledged that skepticism does serve to admit the truth that finite human beings cannot know absolutely, infallibly, perfectly or objectively. This truth was expressed by the apostle Paul in the New Testament (NT) book of 1 Corinthians 13:9&12, “We know in part . . . We see but a poor reflection” (as in a fogged mirror).
Partial knowledge or uncertainty does not prevent would-be skeptics from talking as if knowledge with some degree of confidence were possible the moment they attempt to communicate their doubts. An agnostic assumes at least implicitly that truth is believable, rational and meaningful, even though unprovable or subjective. These three affirmations seem to be a priori truth or unavoidable (beginning) beliefs: 1. Truth or reality exists (cf. EX 3:14, God is “I am” or the essence of existence), 2. (Objective) reality is subjectively known by seekers (cf. 2 CR 5:7, “We live by faith, not by sight” or proof), and 3. Reality is meaningful and communicable or able to be discussed rationally in fellowship with other truthseekers (cf. IS 1:18a, “Come now, let us reason together.”).
That is how I began, but I would like for y'all to share how you like to begin witnessing to atheists.
I proposed that there is such axiomatic truth, because in order to study reality it appears that one must (logically or implicitly) begin by assuming at least the reality of the student, so that absolute skepticism in philosophy is like absolute zero in physics: it serves as a hypothetical point that is not actually achieved or else nothing would happen. However, I acknowledged that skepticism does serve to admit the truth that finite human beings cannot know absolutely, infallibly, perfectly or objectively. This truth was expressed by the apostle Paul in the New Testament (NT) book of 1 Corinthians 13:9&12, “We know in part . . . We see but a poor reflection” (as in a fogged mirror).
Partial knowledge or uncertainty does not prevent would-be skeptics from talking as if knowledge with some degree of confidence were possible the moment they attempt to communicate their doubts. An agnostic assumes at least implicitly that truth is believable, rational and meaningful, even though unprovable or subjective. These three affirmations seem to be a priori truth or unavoidable (beginning) beliefs: 1. Truth or reality exists (cf. EX 3:14, God is “I am” or the essence of existence), 2. (Objective) reality is subjectively known by seekers (cf. 2 CR 5:7, “We live by faith, not by sight” or proof), and 3. Reality is meaningful and communicable or able to be discussed rationally in fellowship with other truthseekers (cf. IS 1:18a, “Come now, let us reason together.”).
That is how I began, but I would like for y'all to share how you like to begin witnessing to atheists.
Paul adjusted his message to accomodate the unbeliever in front of him. If it’s a brief encounter with a stranger vs someone you see often or occasionally, it’s different. Our actions speak louder than our words and oftentimes our personal testimony of our trials and path through life can affect the opinion of unbelievers. If the Holy Spirit is not involved in our presentation, it is wasted effort.
All very true, which is a reason I began this thread logically rather than by citing Scripture, and which is why I propose that Muslims may become Messianic in a way similar to how Paul dealt with Judaism.
On CC we may not have any atheists participating and we cannot speak via actions, so what words or testimony would you like to share with us regarding witnessing to atheists (with what you just said as context)?
A context would begin with a few questions about where they were from, hobbies, education, then lead the conversation towards shared similarities and family relationships. From there I would draw from personal experience (I have 73 years worth) to discuss our natural world. I have been an avid outdoorsman for many decades and have secured numerous lessons from observing our natural world. Sometimes we plant, sometimes till, sometimes water, or simply provide a little shade.
I agree with that approach, but because we don't have atheists on CC with whom to employ that context, can you share some personal experiences in this world that might help us Christians when witnessing to atheists we encounter? Thanks :^)
It seems you want a “ logical” argument for Christianity, and I personally don't see human logic as an effective tool. I have met very many babes in Christ, but very few real atheist. My most extended conversation lasted over several years with a co-worker, who finally conceded he didn’t see anything wrong with someone believing in a God. He was hurt early in life by a relative that pastored a country church. He rebelled more against human hypocrisy and religion which lead to his opinion of God. His son started sneaking to church with friends and he became furious. It ended with his son shooting him during a heated argument. There is no script for sharing the Gospel, it must come from the heart.
It seems you don't have anything else to say on this topic, which is fine.
I understand you don't see divine logic as an effective tool, and it was only semi-effective for Jesus and Paul, too--both of whom quoted IS 6:9-10 at points in their witnessing.
I don't associate with many atheists either.
There is Script for sharing the Gospel from the heart. :^)
With rational people, the answer is yes.
However, people are being trained, virtually brainwashed, to be IRRATIONAL.
With irrational people, the answer is no.
You first have to trick them into agreeing such axiomatic truths exist... then you can go forward.
It's painful.
.
Because I am retired, mainly eat out for breakfast with my wife and my atheist relatives live 1,000 miles away.
The most association I had with atheists was via another chat site when I was deployed with the military about 15 years ago.
My best experience was when a former atheist and his family in Bosnia converted and were baptized in their bathtub :^)