Apologetics: witnessing to atheists

[GWH]

LOL Sounds like the short summary I have on the topic of salvation. I was going to try and keep it under 10 pages. that was 34 pages ago. I'd be happy to read your whole thing through, and id also be happy to pm you my phone and email ... just think of the trouble we could get into together. LOL I chat with anyone who will listen, and usually send copies of my study on salvation out at least 3-4 times a week, asking them to help me find out where I am wrong. Based on the lack of corrections and comments, it must be absolutely flawless. LOL The 1st part of it was in my other post.

Well, I prefer posting on CC because it is like texting, which allows a person to reflect and reply at his convenience.
I also like for others to chime in with constructive comments.

So, I suggest we discuss your study on salvation, perhaps in a new thread that you start on that subject.

 

[EmethAlethia]

Well, I prefer posting on CC because it is like texting, which allows a person to reflect and reply at his convenience.
I also like for others to chime in with constructive comments.

So, I suggest we discuss your study on salvation, perhaps in a new thread that you start on that subject.

You sir are a glutton for punishment. I sent you some pm's, We are thinking alike,.. again. I like the whole thing at once, and of course, as all my studies are, the one on salvation is a work in progress. I'd be happy to send you what I have.

If you think it belongs in a thread, we can do that as well.

 

[GWH]

You sir are a glutton for punishment. I sent you some pm's, We are thinking alike,.. again. I like the whole thing at once, and of course, as all my studies are, the one on salvation is a work in progress. I'd be happy to send you what I have.

If you think it belongs in a thread, we can do that as well.

All of my threads are also works in progress, and sometimes the discussion gets derailed by trolls, but I think it would be good for you to start a thread on Soteriology: the Study of Salvation or something like that. I see that you started two other threads, but the titles do not fit this topic.

You mentioned liking the whole thing at once, but of course the topic is too large to dump the whole load on folks in one whack,
so I suggest dividing it up into more manageable pericopes. Slow but sure. Looking forward to an edifying discussion.

 

[GWH]

All of my threads are also works in progress, and sometimes the discussion gets derailed by trolls, but I think it would be good for you to start a thread on Soteriology: the Study of Salvation or something like that. I see that you started two other threads, but the titles do not fit this topic.

You mentioned liking the whole thing at once, but of course the topic is too large to dump the whole load on folks in one whack,
so I suggest dividing it up into more manageable pericopes. Slow but sure. Looking forward to an edifying discussion.

My thread on soteriology is entitled "The Kerygma: The Christian Creed". Until you are ready to start a thread on this subject,
perhaps we could discuss it on my thread. I suggest beginning discussion with the Scripture you cited, 2Thes. 2:10-13, exploring its implications regarding salvation. I will post there soon, but you are welcome to go first.

 

[GWH]

My thread on soteriology is entitled "The Kerygma: The Christian Creed". Until you are ready to start a thread on this subject,
perhaps we could discuss it on my thread. I suggest beginning discussion with the Scripture you cited, 2Thes. 2:10-13, exploring its implications regarding salvation. I will post there soon, but you are welcome to go first.

Oops! I meant the title is "The Kerygma - God's Requirement for Salvation".
(Got it confused with a website for a senior moment :^).

 

[GWH]

The Bible teaches that God is just/righteous (Rom. 3:25-26, 9:14, 2Thes. 1:6, Isa. 5:16). This doctrine is called "theodicy". It means that explanations of God’s will should not seem unloving or unfair. Some atheists have a negative or evil conception of God, which may be reinforced by the words and deeds of those who claim to be theists (Rom. 2:24, 2Pet. 2:2). Who would want to believe in such a God? Rather than reject a caricature of God, an atheist should imagine the most perfect, loving and just God that he/she can, and choose to believe in that benevolent Being. God is NOT demonic!

What a person believes about the moral attributes of God affects how he or she interprets GW in the Bible, called “hermeneutics”. A Scripture-based hermeneutic might begin well by triangulating from two key NT "guiding teachings" in order to discern the best understanding of problematic biblical statements:

First, God loves and wants to save everyone (John 3:16, 1Tim. 2:3-4, Ezek. 33:11, Acts 17:26-28). Christ died to show God’s love and the possible salvation of all (Rom. 5:6-8) including His enemies (ungodly, atheist, anti-Christ).

Second, God is just (2Thes. 1:6a, cf. Rom. 3:25-26 & 9:14, Deut. 32:4, Psa. 36:6, Luke 11:42, Rev. 15:3). All interpretations of Scripture should conform to this certitude: “The Lord is righteous in all his ways, and holy in all his works.” (Psa. 145:17) The Judge is just; He does not show favoritism (Rom. 2:11). It would be better not to attempt an explanation of GW than to state one that impugns God’s justice and love for all people (Joel 2:13, John 3:16). Even the wrath of God is an expression of His love, intended as discipline (Heb. 12:4-11) to teach people to repent of their hatefulness or faithlessness (Pro. 3:12, Isa. 33:14-15, Rev. 3:19).

Because God is loving and just, He does not tempt, trick, confuse or otherwise contribute to anyone’s sinfulness. On the contrary, God must be doing all that He can do without abrogating justice or moral free will (MFW) to influence people not to be deceived and become self-condemned (Jam. 1:13-17, Tit. 3:11, Isa. 45:19). This realization should steer us away from the problematic opinion (a la Augustine via John Calvin) that God predestines most people for hell and lead us to affirm MFW (Deut. 30:19). This view is paradoxical, because it affirms both that God is sovereign and that God chooses not to control moral thinking, because doing so would nullify human responsibility for sin, making the biblical revelation of salvation based on repentance irrelevant and absurd.

The tulip dogma has been a stumbling-block to faith in Christ ever since it became accepted by many Protestant denominations.
Although the Bible speaks of God hating Esau (Mal. 1:3) and other evil people (Hos. 9:15), Jesus’ teaching of love for enemies (Matt. 5:44) reveals that God loves all creatures including Satan but hates their sinful choices (Ezek. 33:11). Several NT Scriptural pearls teach divine omnilove: John 3:16, 1John 4:7-12, Rom. 5:8, Matt. 5:44&48, Gal. 5:6&14, Eph. 3:17b-19, Eph. 5:2 and 1Tim. 2:3-4.

It seems logical to assume that the all-loving God would create the best possible world or one in which the greatest percentage of persons may attain ultimate joy (1Tim. 2:3-4, 2Pet. 3:9). God may have created all possible kinds of worlds simultaneously: the world of dead matter, the world of living plants, the world of intelligent animals, and the world of morally accountable souls/humans. God’s world/way is best.

The Bible also teaches that God is justness or righteousness (Rom. 3:25-26, 9:14, 2Thes. 1:6). This doctrine is called theodicy. It means that we should be careful lest our explanations of God’s will seem unloving or unfair. If a person cannot explain how a loving God could order the execution of babies (Josh. 6:17, 8:2), then possibly He did not do so. Another synonym for justness is goodness (Isa. 5:16).

Atheists have a negative or evil conception of God, which may be caused or reinforced by the words and deeds of those who claim to be theists (Rom. 2:24, 2Pet. 2:2), such as tulipists. Who would want to believe in such a God? Rather than reject a caricature of God, an atheist should imagine the most perfect, loving and just God that he/she can, and choose to believe in that benevolent Being. God is NOT demonic!

What a person believes about the moral attributes of God affects how he or she interprets God’s Word in the Bible, which is called “hermeneutics”. A Scripture-based hermeneutic begins by believing that a person should triangulate from the two key NT guiding teachings (GTs: God is love and God is just) in order to arrive at a correct understanding of problematic OT statements, such as Rom. 9:13.

 

[GWH]

Another major heresy infecting Christian churches that has been debated on CC is called Judaizing, which includes the doctrines of Sabbatarianism and what might be called "Actsism". Sabbatarianism views the Sabbath law as mandatory for Christians despite the teaching of Paul in Col. 2:16-17 that it merely foreshadowed God’s rest of salvation as indicated in Heb. 3:7-4:11 and thus is part of the Levitical laws that were superseded by the Gospel (Heb. 7:11-10:1) and by the indwelling of Christ’s HS (Rom. 5:5, 8:1-15). (Those who were raised by loving Christian parents may find it easier to understand how cooperation with the Holy Spirit supersedes obeying because of fear. All believers are people of God who should witness for Christ—parents by loving and teaching their children. What is taught and inspired insights should agree with the GW, especially the Gospel.)

Actsists believe that the history of the early church in Acts 1-10 (and Mark 16:16-17) makes water baptism (WB) and speaking in tongues (SIT) mandatory for Christians. The teaching of Paul is that folks need to stop worshipping the physical symbols and focus on what they represent (Rom. 2:28-29). Like physical circumcision (PC) and WB, the 4th Commandment or Sabbath Law (SL) indicates saving faith in the righteousness of Christ. The outward works (WB, SIT) or cessation of work (SL) are appropriate, but optional. It is saving faith by which we receive the Holy Spirit (HS) that is required and manifested by loving fruit. God’s Word (GW) enters His people’s hearts when they repent of heresy including tulipism and seek divine truth (2Thes. 2:10), which culminates by acceptance of Jesus as Messiah and Lord incarnate, at which point of conversion He indwells believers as the Holy Spirit (Rev. 3:20, Rom. 5:5). Moral law summarized as "love everyone" (Matt. 22:37-40) describes what “living in the spirit” looks like.

 

[rewriter]

Another major heresy infecting Christian churches that has been debated on CC is called Judaizing, which includes the doctrines of Sabbatarianism and what might be called "Actsism". Sabbatarianism views the Sabbath law as mandatory for Christians despite the teaching of Paul in Col. 2:16-17 that it merely foreshadowed God’s rest of salvation as indicated in Heb. 3:7-4:11 and thus is part of the Levitical laws that were superseded by the Gospel (Heb. 7:11-10:1) and by the indwelling of Christ’s HS (Rom. 5:5, 8:1-15). (Those who were raised by loving Christian parents may find it easier to understand how cooperation with the Holy Spirit supersedes obeying because of fear. All believers are people of God who should witness for Christ—parents by loving and teaching their children. What is taught and inspired insights should agree with the GW, especially the Gospel.)

Actsists believe that the history of the early church in Acts 1-10 (and Mark 16:16-17) makes water baptism (WB) and speaking in tongues (SIT) mandatory for Christians. The teaching of Paul is that folks need to stop worshipping the physical symbols and focus on what they represent (Rom. 2:28-29). Like physical circumcision (PC) and WB, the 4th Commandment or Sabbath Law (SL) indicates saving faith in the righteousness of Christ. The outward works (WB, SIT) or cessation of work (SL) are appropriate, but optional. It is saving faith by which we receive the Holy Spirit (HS) that is required and manifested by loving fruit. God’s Word (GW) enters His people’s hearts when they repent of heresy including tulipism and seek divine truth (2Thes. 2:10), which culminates by acceptance of Jesus as Messiah and Lord incarnate, at which point of conversion He indwells believers as the Holy Spirit (Rev. 3:20, Rom. 5:5). Moral law summarized as "love everyone" (Matt. 22:37-40) describes what “living in the spirit” looks like.

Another heresy is Biblicism or Sola Scripture, the belief that all we need is what WE read in scripture, not what the earliest believers would have read. There are multiple places where scripture points to information outside of scripture that is important, yet we "enlightened" believers "know" that this information that scripture points us to is unimportant, that it will just cloud the issue when it contradicts what we have decided is tgrue.

Did God ask Job questions to silence him and overwhelm him, or was He encouraging Job to dig deeper, unlike his friends? What is Psalm 23 telling us about reality? The answers to such questions are not easily, if at all, found in scripture but that says nothing about how important they are to a mature faith.

 

[GWH]

Another heresy is Biblicism or Sola Scripture, the belief that all we need is what WE read in scripture, not what the earliest believers would have read. There are multiple places where scripture points to information outside of scripture that is important, yet we "enlightened" believers "know" that this information that scripture points us to is unimportant, that it will just cloud the issue when it contradicts what we have decided is tgrue.

Did God ask Job questions to silence him and overwhelm him, or was He encouraging Job to dig deeper, unlike his friends? What is Psalm 23 telling us about reality? The answers to such questions are not easily, if at all, found in scripture but that says nothing about how important they are to a mature faith.

Heresy refers to contradiction of GRFS, which Sola Scriptura does not do.
Extra-canonical information may be interesting and nice to know, but it is not necessary to know in order to be saved.
Even information in the Bible may be in that category, which is why I distinguish between kerygmatic and didachaic information as follows:

The kerygma or GRFS can be stated in various ways, which may cause confusion. Some statements (e.g. Acts 16:31, quoted previously, & Eph. 2:8-9) are in terms of believing right, and others (e.g. Matt. 7:21, “only he who does the will of my Father will enter heaven”, cf. Gal. 6:7-9 & Eph. 2:10) are in terms of behaving right. This prompts the question: Is salvation obtained by believing God’s words or by doing God’s works? The answer is indicated by John 6:29: “The work of God is to believe in the one [Messiah/Christ] He has sent.” As Jesus stated (in John 14:6): “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.” The
mind of Jesus is truth incarnate (John 1:14), and all truth manifests the Spirit of Christ or God (1John 5:6). The work of God (GRFS) is to seek and believe the truth, and part of the truth is that no one comes to know God as Father except through faith in God’s truth embodied as God the Son.

Teachings that are secondary or subsequent to learning GRFS may be indicated by another Greek word, didache, which means teaching. The didache may be very important and requisite for becoming spiritually mature, but it is not most important or necessary to know/believe in order to be saved. The distinction between kerygma/saving faith and didache/working faith was made by Jesus when He commissioned His original twelve disciples minus Judas (Matt. 28:19-20). This “Great Commission” speaks of both types of information. The kerygma is indicated by verse 19, in which Jesus says, “Therefore go and make disciples of all nations”.

A Christian disciple is a learner or one who believes the good news about God’s offer of eternal life to all who accept Jesus as Christ, the Lord incarnate. The didache is implicit in verse 20, in which Jesus continues by saying “teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you.” This speaks of the information a disciple needs to know and believe after conversion in order to grow in Christ-likeness regarding how to live the law of love. It is the “all truth” that is taught by the Spirit referred to in John 16:13. Again, it is very important but not necessary for salvation. Witness the thief on the cross in Luke 23:39-43, who had no opportunity to learn the didache after his conversion; although, like Paul (according to Acts 22:3) and most adults, some didachaic truth is learned prior to knowing the kerygma.

The distinction between kerygma and didache can be seen also in 2 Tim. 3:15-17. The scriptures “which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus” refers to the Gospel or kerygma. The scriptural teaching that is useful for “training in righteousness, so that the man [or woman per Gal. 3:28] of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work” refers to the didache. The apostle Paul also employs the difference between kerygma and didache in 1 Cor. 3:10-15. The “foundation… which is Jesus Christ” is the kerygmatic teaching regarding salvation. Paul alludes to the didache when he says that one should be careful how he/she builds upon this foundation.

The distinction between kerygma and didache involves a difference in content and purpose. The kerygma proclaims GRFS, which calls for repentance and acceptance of Jesus as Lord, which is an all or nothing decision that occurs at one moment in time. The didache teaches God’s will regarding how saints or those who have been saved should live in order to be a good witness for Christ, which involves learning more of God’s Word throughout one’s lifetime. A passage teaching this truth is Col. 2:6-7: “Just as you received Christ Jesus as Lord [kerygma], continue to live in him, rooted and built up in him, strengthened in the faith as you were taught [didache].”

There is no qualitative difference between faith that accepts God’s saving grace at conversion and faith that accepts God’s working grace while walking/living (Eph. 2:8-10, 1Cor. 15:10, 2Cor. 5:7, Rom. 1:17), but only a quantitative difference as each additional moment passes–and of course faith remains non-meritorious during the saint’s entire lifetime.

 

[rewriter]

Heresy refers to contradiction of GRFS, which Sola Scriptura does not do.
Extra-canonical information may be interesting and nice to know, but it is not necessary to know in order to be saved.
Even information in the Bible may be in that category, which is why I distinguish between kerygmatic and didachaic information as follows:

The kerygma or GRFS can be stated in various ways, which may cause confusion. Some statements (e.g. Acts 16:31, quoted previously, & Eph. 2:8-9) are in terms of believing right, and others (e.g. Matt. 7:21, “only he who does the will of my Father will enter heaven”, cf. Gal. 6:7-9 & Eph. 2:10) are in terms of behaving right. This prompts the question: Is salvation obtained by believing God’s words or by doing God’s works? The answer is indicated by John 6:29: “The work of God is to believe in the one [Messiah/Christ] He has sent.” As Jesus stated (in John 14:6): “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.” The
mind of Jesus is truth incarnate (John 1:14), and all truth manifests the Spirit of Christ or God (1John 5:6). The work of God (GRFS) is to seek and believe the truth, and part of the truth is that no one comes to know God as Father except through faith in God’s truth embodied as God the Son.

Teachings that are secondary or subsequent to learning GRFS may be indicated by another Greek word, didache, which means teaching. The didache may be very important and requisite for becoming spiritually mature, but it is not most important or necessary to know/believe in order to be saved. The distinction between kerygma/saving faith and didache/working faith was made by Jesus when He commissioned His original twelve disciples minus Judas (Matt. 28:19-20). This “Great Commission” speaks of both types of information. The kerygma is indicated by verse 19, in which Jesus says, “Therefore go and make disciples of all nations”.

A Christian disciple is a learner or one who believes the good news about God’s offer of eternal life to all who accept Jesus as Christ, the Lord incarnate. The didache is implicit in verse 20, in which Jesus continues by saying “teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you.” This speaks of the information a disciple needs to know and believe after conversion in order to grow in Christ-likeness regarding how to live the law of love. It is the “all truth” that is taught by the Spirit referred to in John 16:13. Again, it is very important but not necessary for salvation. Witness the thief on the cross in Luke 23:39-43, who had no opportunity to learn the didache after his conversion; although, like Paul (according to Acts 22:3) and most adults, some didachaic truth is learned prior to knowing the kerygma.

The distinction between kerygma and didache can be seen also in 2 Tim. 3:15-17. The scriptures “which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus” refers to the Gospel or kerygma. The scriptural teaching that is useful for “training in righteousness, so that the man [or woman per Gal. 3:28] of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work” refers to the didache. The apostle Paul also employs the difference between kerygma and didache in 1 Cor. 3:10-15. The “foundation… which is Jesus Christ” is the kerygmatic teaching regarding salvation. Paul alludes to the didache when he says that one should be careful how he/she builds upon this foundation.

The distinction between kerygma and didache involves a difference in content and purpose. The kerygma proclaims GRFS, which calls for repentance and acceptance of Jesus as Lord, which is an all or nothing decision that occurs at one moment in time. The didache teaches God’s will regarding how saints or those who have been saved should live in order to be a good witness for Christ, which involves learning more of God’s Word throughout one’s lifetime. A passage teaching this truth is Col. 2:6-7: “Just as you received Christ Jesus as Lord [kerygma], continue to live in him, rooted and built up in him, strengthened in the faith as you were taught [didache].”

There is no qualitative difference between faith that accepts God’s saving grace at conversion and faith that accepts God’s working grace while walking/living (Eph. 2:8-10, 1Cor. 15:10, 2Cor. 5:7, Rom. 1:17), but only a quantitative difference as each additional moment passes–and of course faith remains non-meritorious during the saint’s entire lifetime.

Are you saying that taking an approach of Sola Scripture cannot be heretical? I am merely noting that it can be used heretically and indeed is so used far too often. Recall, Satan used and misused scripture, are you saying that such use and misuse by humans is not?
Note, I am not saying that scripture must be misused, but rather that is it possible to misuse and that outside sources may be used to assist in avoiding misuse. There are multiple, sometimes opposing, doctrines advanced even in this forum all citing scripture. At such points, I find that looking outside scripture, that is using everything that springs from God's word, to determine what is correct and what is the result of misuse/misunderstanding. Are you suggesting that only part of what we have available from God's word be used, or that preference be given to a specific portion of God's eternal word?

 

[GWH]

Are you saying that taking an approach of Sola Scripture cannot be heretical? I am merely noting that it can be used heretically and indeed is so used far too often. Recall, Satan used and misused scripture, are you saying that such use and misuse by humans is not?
Note, I am not saying that scripture must be misused, but rather that is it possible to misuse and that outside sources may be used to assist in avoiding misuse. There are multiple, sometimes opposing, doctrines advanced even in this forum all citing scripture. At such points, I find that looking outside scripture, that is using everything that springs from God's word, to determine what is correct and what is the result of misuse/misunderstanding. Are you suggesting that only part of what we have available from God's word be used, or that preference be given to a specific portion of God's eternal word?

Yes, creation and Scripture are not heretical, but only beliefs that contradict GRFS.
As you said, truth can be twisted into heresy.
That possibility is because fallible folks have MFW.

I summarize what is essential in GW IMO as follows:

1. There is a/one all-loving and just Lord or God (Deut. 6:4, John 3:16, 2Thes. 1:6), who is both able (2Tim. 1:12) and willing (1Tim. 2:3-4, Ezek. 33:11) to provide all morally accountable human beings salvation or heaven—a wonderful life full of love, joy and peace forever.
2. Human beings are selfish or sinful (Rom. 3:23, 2Tim. 3:2-4, Col. 3:5), miserable (Gal. 5:19-21), and hopeless (Eph. 2:12) or hell-bound at the judgment (Matt. 23:33 & 25:46) when they reject God’s salvation (John 3:18, Rom. 2:5-11).
3. Jesus is God’s Messiah/Christ and incarnate Son, the way that God has chosen (John 3:16, Acts 16:30-31, Phil. 2:9-11) of providing salvation by means of his atoning death on the cross for the payment of the penalty for the sins of humanity (Rom. 3:22-25 & 5:9-11), followed by his resurrection to reign in heaven (1Cor. 15:14-28).
4. Thus, every person who hears the NT Gospel needs to repent and accept God’s justification in Jesus as Christ/Messiah the Lord or Supreme Commander (Luke 2:11, John 14:6, Acts 16:31), which means trying to obey (Phil. 3:12, 1John 1:8) His commandment to love one another (Matt. 22:37-40, John 13:35, Rom. 13:9)—forever (Matt. 10:22, Psa. 113:2).
5. Then God’s Holy Spirit will establish a saving relationship with those who freely accept Him (Rev. 3:20) that will eventually achieve heaven when by means of persevering in learning Truth/God’s Word/sanctification everyone cooperates fully with His will (John 14:6, 17&26, Rom. 8:6-17, Gal. 6:7-9, Eph. 1:13-14, Heb. 10:36, 12:1, Jam. 1:2-4).
6. This creed summarizes revelation of the NT Gospel/Truth (Matt. 26:13, John 14:6), which fulfilled the OT revelation (Matt. 5:17, John 19:30, Heb. 7:11-10:10) and culminates the search for salvation by souls who know only general revelation (Rom. 1:20, 2:14-16, Matt. 7:12). Seeking begins when souls love truth/repent of false beliefs (2Thes. 2:10&13, Matt. 4:17, 7:7), which is the Way to eternal life God wills, who is the Lord Jesus (Matt. 7:14, John 1:14, 4:24, 14:6). Lacking this love leads to believing lies and debauchery (Matt. 7:6, Rom. 1:18&25-26, 2Thes. 2:11-12).

 

[GWH]

I am sponsoring a comparison of the NT creed with a tulip creed on the Resolving Problematic Interpretations of Scripture thread for those who are interested in that.

 

[GWH]

Yes, creation and Scripture are not heretical, but only beliefs that contradict GRFS.
As you said, truth can be twisted into heresy.
That possibility is because fallible folks have MFW.

I summarize what is essential in GW IMO as follows:

1. There is a/one all-loving and just Lord or God (Deut. 6:4, John 3:16, 2Thes. 1:6), who is both able (2Tim. 1:12) and willing (1Tim. 2:3-4, Ezek. 33:11) to provide all morally accountable human beings salvation or heaven—a wonderful life full of love, joy and peace forever.
2. Human beings are selfish or sinful (Rom. 3:23, 2Tim. 3:2-4, Col. 3:5), miserable (Gal. 5:19-21), and hopeless (Eph. 2:12) or hell-bound at the judgment (Matt. 23:33 & 25:46) when they reject God’s salvation (John 3:18, Rom. 2:5-11).
3. Jesus is God’s Messiah/Christ and incarnate Son, the way that God has chosen (John 3:16, Acts 16:30-31, Phil. 2:9-11) of providing salvation by means of his atoning death on the cross for the payment of the penalty for the sins of humanity (Rom. 3:22-25 & 5:9-11), followed by his resurrection to reign in heaven (1Cor. 15:14-28).
4. Thus, every person who hears the NT Gospel needs to repent and accept God’s justification in Jesus as Christ/Messiah the Lord or Supreme Commander (Luke 2:11, John 14:6, Acts 16:31), which means trying to obey (Phil. 3:12, 1John 1:8) His commandment to love one another (Matt. 22:37-40, John 13:35, Rom. 13:9)—forever (Matt. 10:22, Psa. 113:2).
5. Then God’s Holy Spirit will establish a saving relationship with those who freely accept Him (Rev. 3:20) that will eventually achieve heaven when by means of persevering in learning Truth/God’s Word/sanctification everyone cooperates fully with His will (John 14:6, 17&26, Rom. 8:6-17, Gal. 6:7-9, Eph. 1:13-14, Heb. 10:36, 12:1, Jam. 1:2-4).
6. This creed summarizes revelation of the NT Gospel/Truth (Matt. 26:13, John 14:6), which fulfilled the OT revelation (Matt. 5:17, John 19:30, Heb. 7:11-10:10) and culminates the search for salvation by souls who know only general revelation (Rom. 1:20, 2:14-16, Matt. 7:12). Seeking begins when souls love truth/repent of false beliefs (2Thes. 2:10&13, Matt. 4:17, 7:7), which is the Way to eternal life God wills, who is the Lord Jesus (Matt. 7:14, John 1:14, 4:24, 14:6). Lacking this love leads to believing lies and debauchery (Matt. 7:6, Rom. 1:18&25-26, 2Thes. 2:11-12).

Bumped for @rewriter.

 

[rewriter]

Thank you for the bump on this thread.

One key issue is that of Sin. Is sin a moral failing or is it a failing of a different sort? Does Anselm apply in the problem of sin and the need for salvation, his explanation is widely accepted to be sure, but is it accurate? I was reminded of him in some of my reading this morning about Psalm 35 and how this and similar psalms can raise issues for Christians. And to explore this point even further would be to go down trails that cannot be adequately covered in the space allotted for post here and would also upset many readers who just see the surface of a very deep issue.

 

[GWH]

Thank you for the bump on this thread.

One key issue is that of Sin. Is sin a moral failing or is it a failing of a different sort? Does Anselm apply in the problem of sin and the need for salvation, his explanation is widely accepted to be sure, but is it accurate? I was reminded of him in some of my reading this morning about Psalm 35 and how this and similar psalms can raise issues for Christians. And to explore this point even further would be to go down trails that cannot be adequately covered in the space allotted for post here and would also upset many readers who just see the surface of a very deep issue.

Sin per A&E begins by choosing wrongly to ignore GW, which is immoral inwardly and will manifest outwardly in various evil or immoral actions. No need to cite Anselm, although we may admire his reasoning/logic.

 

[rewriter]

Sin per A&E begins by choosing wrongly to ignore GW, which is immoral inwardly and will manifest outwardly in various evil or immoral actions. No need to cite Anselm, although we may admire his reasoning/logic.

Is that the message of A&E or is it a convenient distortion. Which came first, the immoral action or the believed creation of an entity that could get away with the immoral action? Which of us does not believe in a unique, unconnected to any other, self that has specific needs that must be addressed and that cannot be fully known by any other person? And from whence does such a unique self arise as it is in conflict with all known physics and psychology.

Now admittedly even acknowledging this false entity is a threat to it and will prompt a reaction against the threat, most often immediate denial, but take time to think it through carefully and refute it on logical grounds, not emotional ones. It my contention is correct, this false self has no life as it is not connected to God and is thus automatically dead in its sin, even as the associated physical body, and the spiritual entity associated with that physical body, continues to live on. But the false self will feast on the true spiritual entity in order to preserve itself.

 

[GWH]

Is that the message of A&E or is it a convenient distortion. Which came first, the immoral action or the believed creation of an entity that could get away with the immoral action? Which of us does not believe in a unique, unconnected to any other, self that has specific needs that must be addressed and that cannot be fully known by any other person? And from whence does such a unique self arise as it is in conflict with all known physics and psychology.

Now admittedly even acknowledging this false entity is a threat to it and will prompt a reaction against the threat, most often immediate denial, but take time to think it through carefully and refute it on logical grounds, not emotional ones. It my contention is correct, this false self has no life as it is not connected to God and is thus automatically dead in its sin, even as the associated physical body, and the spiritual entity associated with that physical body, continues to live on. But the false self will feast on the true spiritual entity in order to preserve itself.

The message in the A&E story/parable Sin includes that sin begins by choosing wrongly to ignore GW, which is immoral inwardly and will manifest outwardly in various evil or immoral actions/chain sinning unless/until confessed instead of denied or blamed on someone else, including the devil.

The possibility of choosing wrongly was created by God when He provided the option of eating or not eating the forbidden fruit aka MFW, which was good, but it was wrong/wicked for A&E to make evil actual by ignoring GW.

I do not understand your question about the unique self/false entity.

 

[CS1]

I grew up with Christian parents and attended church most every Sunday, but when I reached college age I encountered atheism and wondered why the daughter of a missionary became an atheist. This prompted me to request a modern English Bible for Christmas, which I read completely through in order to find answers to atheists' criticisms, because the pastor's weekly sermons about how to be saved had not equipped me for such apologetics.

As I learned biblical teachings beyond the Gospel, I felt led to become a minister and perhaps a pastor so that I could share such truth with Christians who might witness to atheist friends or at least be edified and not deceived by their argumenta. When I became a military chaplain, there was an AKO online forum in which atheists debated Christians, and at one point I was invited to speak at a meeting of the atheists in Austin.

So, now that I discovered this ChristianChat forum, I would like to pass on what the Lord has taught me before I die, especially to those Christians whose experience sitting in church pews has been similar to mine.

Thanks for asking!

If you see your faith as fallible, then I must ask the question who is Jesus to you?

 

[GWH]

If you see your faith as fallible, then I must ask the question who is Jesus to you?

Below is what God, Christ and the HS are to me expressed as a/my creed:

1. There is a/one all-loving and just Lord or God (Deut. 6:4, John 3:16, 2Thes. 1:6), who is both able (2Tim. 1:12) and willing (1Tim. 2:3-4, Ezek. 33:11) to provide all morally accountable human beings salvation or heaven—a wonderful life full of love, joy and peace forever.
2. Human beings are selfish or sinful (Rom. 3:23, 2Tim. 3:2-4, Col. 3:5), miserable (Gal. 5:19-21), and hopeless (Eph. 2:12) or hell-bound at the judgment (Matt. 23:33 & 25:46) when they reject God’s salvation (John 3:18, Rom. 2:5-11).

3. Jesus is God’s Messiah/Christ and incarnate Son, the way that God has chosen (John 3:16, Acts 16:30-31, Phil. 2:9-11) of providing salvation by means of his atoning death on the cross for the payment of the penalty for the sins of humanity (Rom. 3:22-25 & 5:9-11), followed by his resurrection to reign in heaven (1Cor. 15:14-28).
4. Thus, every person who hears the NT Gospel needs to repent and accept God’s justification in Jesus as Christ/Messiah the Lord or Supreme Commander (Luke 2:11, John 14:6, Acts 16:31), which means trying to obey (Phil. 3:12, 1John 1:8) His commandment to love one another (Matt. 22:37-40, John 13:35, Rom. 13:9)—forever (Matt. 10:22, Psa. 113:2).

5. Then God’s Holy Spirit will establish a saving relationship with those who freely accept Him (Rev. 3:20) that will eventually achieve heaven when by means of persevering in learning Truth/God’s Word/sanctification everyone cooperates fully with His will (John 14:6, 17&26, Rom. 8:6-17, Gal. 6:7-9, Eph. 1:13-14, Heb. 10:36, 12:1, Jam. 1:2-4).
6. This creed summarizes revelation of the NT Gospel/Truth (Matt. 26:13, John 14:6), which fulfilled the OT revelation (Matt. 5:17, John 19:30, Heb. 7:11-10:10) and culminates the search for salvation by souls who know only general revelation (Rom. 1:20, 2:14-16, Matt. 7:12). Seeking begins when souls love truth/repent of false beliefs (2Thes. 2:10&13, Matt. 4:17, 7:7), which is the Way to eternal life God wills, who is the Lord Jesus (Matt. 7:14, John 1:14, 4:24, 14:6). Lacking this love leads to believing lies and debauchery (Matt. 7:6, Rom. 1:18&25-26, 2Thes. 2:11-12).

 

[CS1]

Below is what God, Christ and the HS are to me expressed as a/my creed:

1. There is a/one all-loving and just Lord or God (Deut. 6:4, John 3:16, 2Thes. 1:6), who is both able (2Tim. 1:12) and willing (1Tim. 2:3-4, Ezek. 33:11) to provide all morally accountable human beings salvation or heaven—a wonderful life full of love, joy and peace forever.
2. Human beings are selfish or sinful (Rom. 3:23, 2Tim. 3:2-4, Col. 3:5), miserable (Gal. 5:19-21), and hopeless (Eph. 2:12) or hell-bound at the judgment (Matt. 23:33 & 25:46) when they reject God’s salvation (John 3:18, Rom. 2:5-11).

3. Jesus is God’s Messiah/Christ and incarnate Son, the way that God has chosen (John 3:16, Acts 16:30-31, Phil. 2:9-11) of providing salvation by means of his atoning death on the cross for the payment of the penalty for the sins of humanity (Rom. 3:22-25 & 5:9-11), followed by his resurrection to reign in heaven (1Cor. 15:14-28).
4. Thus, every person who hears the NT Gospel needs to repent and accept God’s justification in Jesus as Christ/Messiah the Lord or Supreme Commander (Luke 2:11, John 14:6, Acts 16:31), which means trying to obey (Phil. 3:12, 1John 1:8) His commandment to love one another (Matt. 22:37-40, John 13:35, Rom. 13:9)—forever (Matt. 10:22, Psa. 113:2).

5. Then God’s Holy Spirit will establish a saving relationship with those who freely accept Him (Rev. 3:20) that will eventually achieve heaven when by means of persevering in learning Truth/God’s Word/sanctification everyone cooperates fully with His will (John 14:6, 17&26, Rom. 8:6-17, Gal. 6:7-9, Eph. 1:13-14, Heb. 10:36, 12:1, Jam. 1:2-4).
6. This creed summarizes revelation of the NT Gospel/Truth (Matt. 26:13, John 14:6), which fulfilled the OT revelation (Matt. 5:17, John 19:30, Heb. 7:11-10:10) and culminates the search for salvation by souls who know only general revelation (Rom. 1:20, 2:14-16, Matt. 7:12). Seeking begins when souls love truth/repent of false beliefs (2Thes. 2:10&13, Matt. 4:17, 7:7), which is the Way to eternal life God wills, who is the Lord Jesus (Matt. 7:14, John 1:14, 4:24, 14:6). Lacking this love leads to believing lies and debauchery (Matt. 7:6, Rom. 1:18&25-26, 2Thes. 2:11-12).

I want much rather prefer your own words thank you. Who is Jesus to you.?