Apologetics: witnessing to atheists

[SirSolaScriptura]

Witnessing to Atheists depends on some factors. If they are respectful and curious, there is "fertile soil," if they are hostile and tell you to read all these books by the New Atheists, you are wasting your time and they are trying to antievangelize you.

Praying for them is probably the most effective tool. Our Lord has an ability to work on their heart and reach them in ways we cannot and even best guide us on what to say or not say.

Also beware that there are atheists like John Carpenter who are really Satanists, and they can label themselves thus because they don't worship a god, they worship an angel.

 

[GWH]

Witnessing to Atheists depends on some factors. If they are respectful and curious, there is "fertile soil," if they are hostile and tell you to read all these books by the New Atheists, you are wasting your time and they are trying to antievangelize you.

Praying for them is probably the most effective tool. Our Lord has an ability to work on their heart and reach them in ways we cannot and even best guide us on what to say or not say.

Also beware that there are atheists like John Carpenter who are really Satanists, and they can label themselves thus because they don't worship a god, they worship an angel.

Yes indeed, and even praying may not change their hearts. Both Jesus (in MT 13:14-15) and Paul (in ACTS 28:26-27), cited Isaiah to say, “You will be ever hearing but never understanding; you will be ever seeing but never perceiving. For this people’s heart has become calloused.”

Apparently, this callous attitude demands God to nullify faith/MFW and thereby abrogate the essence of humanness by performing miracles in order to prove He exists. Atheists presume to know better than God, but they may one day (at the eschaton per Rev. 20:15) wish they had admitted the possibility that God has ordained this mortal life on earth for the purpose of people proving to Him who is worthy of (qualified for) eternal life in heaven (cf. Rom. 2:5-8 & 2Cor. 13:5; heart/mind).

And yes, atheism as well as Phariseeism is really Satanism per Jesus in John 8:42-47.

Everyone is born to die, so the existential need and desire for heavenly life and ultimate justice (the duo of desirables or DOD) make it logical for truthseekers to have a propensity to hope and believe a God who provides the DOD exists, to determine the most credible revelation of God’s requirement for attaining heaven, and to cooperate with His revealed will. IOW, it seems logical--given the existential facts of death and imperfect justice--that an unbiased truthseeker would have a propensity to hope the Christian view is correct, because there is no better (more credible and desirable) way of attaining the DOD than NT theism. Christianity is the best belief!

 

[SirSolaScriptura]

Yes indeed, and even praying may not change their hearts. Both Jesus (in MT 13:14-15) and Paul (in ACTS 28:26-27), cited Isaiah to say, “You will be ever hearing but never understanding; you will be ever seeing but never perceiving. For this people’s heart has become calloused.”

Apparently, this callous attitude demands God to nullify faith/MFW and thereby abrogate the essence of humanness by performing miracles in order to prove He exists. Atheists presume to know better than God, but they may one day (at the eschaton per Rev. 20:15) wish they had admitted the possibility that God has ordained this mortal life on earth for the purpose of people proving to Him who is worthy of (qualified for) eternal life in heaven (cf. Rom. 2:5-8 & 2Cor. 13:5; heart/mind).

And yes, atheism as well as Phariseeism is really Satanism per Jesus in John 8:42-47.

Everyone is born to die, so the existential need and desire for heavenly life and ultimate justice (the duo of desirables or DOD) make it logical for truthseekers to have a propensity to hope and believe a God who provides the DOD exists, to determine the most credible revelation of God’s requirement for attaining heaven, and to cooperate with His revealed will. IOW, it seems logical--given the existential facts of death and imperfect justice--that an unbiased truthseeker would have a propensity to hope the Christian view is correct, because there is no better (more credible and desirable) way of attaining the DOD than NT theism. Christianity is the best belief!

Atheism is a safe cover for a lot of true blue Satanists who don't want the stigma. I am fairly certain Ridley Scott is one, considering he trumpets paganism in his Gladiator films, but demonizes Christianity in his other epics, and his Alien films are occultism, I mean H.R. Giger who designed the Xenomorph Monster made the creature for Necromoricon, a advanced book of witchcraft, the Xenomorph is Necromon IV, and in the Illustrated Necromoricon that Giger did, there is Pentagrams and Christ being torn to pieces.. so the influence in those films is clearly Satanic proper.

 

[GWH]

Atheism is a safe cover for a lot of true blue Satanists who don't want the stigma. I am fairly certain Ridley Scott is one, considering he trumpets paganism in his Gladiator films, but demonizes Christianity in his other epics, and his Alien films are occultism, I mean H.R. Giger who designed the Xenomorph Monster made the creature for Necromoricon, a advanced book of witchcraft, the Xenomorph is Necromon IV, and in the Illustrated Necromoricon that Giger did, there is Pentagrams and Christ being torn to pieces.. so the influence in those films is clearly Satanic proper.

Yes, and Satanism is equivalent to I-dolatry, which has three denominations including:

1. egoism (meaning is self-dictated),
2. elitism (“might makes right”) and
3. popularism (“the majority rules”).

Souls are forced by the structure of reality to choose to believe something; humans are volitional beings, paradoxically forced to make free moral decisions. However, this choice or affirmation does not necessarily mean people determine or create truth ultimately.

The truth of egoism is that each individual is responsible for his/her choices (but to whom; is there a Higher Authority?).
The truth of elitism is that the ruling class of people has political power over those who are governed (although a superhuman Governor of the universe may exist).
And the truth of popularism is that in a democracy the majority may be the governors (however, this does not mean its decisions are objective or right).

In short, selfish people may be I-dolatrous, but they cannot become God.

 

[SirSolaScriptura]

Yes, and Satanism is equivalent to I-dolatry, which has three denominations including:

1. egoism (meaning is self-dictated),
2. elitism (“might makes right”) and
3. popularism (“the majority rules”).

Souls are forced by the structure of reality to choose to believe something; humans are volitional beings, paradoxically forced to make free moral decisions. However, this choice or affirmation does not necessarily mean people determine or create truth ultimately.

The truth of egoism is that each individual is responsible for his/her choices (but to whom; is there a Higher Authority?).
The truth of elitism is that the ruling class of people has political power over those who are governed (although a superhuman Governor of the universe may exist).
And the truth of popularism is that in a democracy the majority may be the governors (however, this does not mean its decisions are objective or right).

In short, selfish people may be I-dolatrous, but they cannot become God.

There is certainly those kinds, I mean Ephesians 2:2 lays out anyone who is not a Christian is filled with Satan. However, I am speaking of people who actually model their lives on Lucifer or even worship and summon him. Those are ones I am saying disguise themselves as Atheists to fit in better with society.

 

[GWH]

There is certainly those kinds, I mean Ephesians 2:2 lays out anyone who is not a Christian is filled with Satan. However, I am speaking of people who actually model their lives on Lucifer or even worship and summon him. Those are ones I am saying disguise themselves as Atheists to fit in better with society.

Yeah, that's bad when the one disguised as an angel of light has to disguise himself as an atheist.

 

[GWH]

Yeah, that's bad when the one disguised as an angel of light has to disguise himself as an atheist.

With our names being about Scripture, I wonder if you would be interested in participating in a systematic study of Ephesians on the Systematic Bible Study thread or of the doctrine of election on the Hermeneutics thread (beginning at post #380). If so, please feel to chime in.

 

[GWH]

I thought Trump had an excellent speech in Saudi Arabia today, in which he manifested Christian love
as he referred to the need for peace among three major religions and how it would glorify God.
The fact that he speaks the truth so openly including the failings of the US makes me wince sometimes,
but I think sensible folks appreciate his honesty. His goal of being a peacemaker and not having permanent enemies
is worthy of us on CC to share.

 

[GWH]

The concept of logical consequences/poetic justice seems to be part of apologetics: Because God is love, joy and truth,
it is just and appropriate for those who reject Him to experience hatred, misery and meaninglessness aka hell.

 

[GWH]

The broadcast of President Trump's meeting with the President of South Africa on RAV this morning was interesting, especially when a video was shown of some black opposition leaders in SA advocating for killing of white farmers and confiscating their land. The representative of workers unions in SA pointed out that criminals are killing blacks too, and the solution includes help from the USA with improving the SA economy so the 40% unemployment rate can be improved.

I wished both Trump and the SA leaders would have cited their Christian faith and NT morality as the divine mandate and motivation for their desire for peace.

 

[GWH]

Kudos to Sec-Def Hegspeth for sponsoring a monthly prayer meeting at the Defense Department,
but regarding the bill in Texas to post the Ten Commandments in schools: Is it possible to post the first nine
and/or the two commandments Jesus affirmed as greatest (Matt. 22:37-40)?

 

[GWH]

Yes, and Satanism is equivalent to I-dolatry, which has three denominations including:

1. egoism (meaning is self-dictated),
2. elitism (“might makes right”) and
3. popularism (“the majority rules”).

Souls are forced by the structure of reality to choose to believe something; humans are volitional beings, paradoxically forced to make free moral decisions. However, this choice or affirmation does not necessarily mean people determine or create truth ultimately.

The truth of egoism is that each individual is responsible for his/her choices (but to whom; is there a Higher Authority?).
The truth of elitism is that the ruling class of people has political power over those who are governed (although a superhuman Governor of the universe may exist).
And the truth of popularism is that in a democracy the majority may be the governors (however, this does not mean its decisions are objective or right).

In short, selfish people may be I-dolatrous, but they cannot become God.

So, back to the topic of Satanism or I-dolatry, we see the three denominations manifested thusly:

1. Disrespecting GW in favor of belief that there is no objective meaning but only what each person constructs.
A&E were the first to exemplify this attitude.

2. The proponents of might makes right are seeking to rule by using wealth to purchase power over the world.
These include the oligarchs, globalists and Marxists seeking to undermine societies in which individuals are free.

3. Examples of majority rule in the world today include Muslim societies that accept sharia law and persecute Christians.
Historically slavery was accepted by the majority in many cultures, but the influence of Christianity has ended most of that.

 

[GWH]

And so because of Rom. 9:10-24 it became necessary not only to address the confusion it caused TULIPists
but also to answer the accusations of atheists that God is NOT loving and just to save only a few and condemn the rest to hell.

 

[GWH]

Others seem unwilling to walk by faith (2Cor. 5:7).
The desire for proof/miracles is understandable (John 20:24-29),
but the demand for them was denounces by Jesus (Matt. 12:39).

However, faith is quite reasonable rather than blind. Any open-minded truthseeker who compares the NT teachings of Jesus and Paul with the founding scriptures of other religions will conclude that the NT is the most credible canon or collection of writings purporting to be a communique from God. The NT hope for heaven is based on evidence in support of Jesus’ claim to be Messiah/Christ, which includes: the prophecy or foreshadowing of His life (in various OT scriptures, including Isa. 53 and Psa. 22, and by the sacrificial system), the purpose of His death (as explained in the NT, such as Heb. 7:18-10:18), and the probability or credibility of His resurrection (in history as recorded by the last chapters of the Gospels and Rom. 1:3-4).

Thus, Christians may have confidence, assurance and as much certainty regarding their faith as atheists can claim for theirs.

 

[GWH]

A train of thought to consider sharing when witnessing to atheists who reject GW is the following logic that I call the “Propensity Principle” (PP). The PP points out that until proof is provided in the future at the eschaton, humanity’s existential need and desire for eternal life and ultimate justice (the duo of desirables or DOD) make it logical for truthseekers to have a propensity to hope and believe a God who provides the DOD exists, to determine the most credible revelation of God’s requirement for attaining heaven, and to cooperate with His revealed will. IOW, it seems logical–given the existential facts of death and imperfect justice–that an unbiased truthseeker would have a propensity to hope the Christian view is correct, because there is no better (credible and desirable) way of attaining the DOD than NT theism. This PP restates Pascal’s wager in terms of comparison shopping (with all belief systems) instead of gambling.

The PP employs linear logic (rather than circular reasoning) to propose faith in the NT God as the best belief that solves the maze of reality as follows:

1. Current scientific knowledge cannot explain how the universe came to exist by means of natural causes, thus it is possible that the cause of the universe is a supernatural Creator/God.

2. The most creative species is humanity, whose traits also include language, moral conscience and God consciousness (personality), so it is possible that these human traits reflect attributes of a God who created humanity.

3. Existential reality indicates that humans are mortal and life is painful, but when life is happy, one wishes it would continue indefinitely. Thus, it is rational to seek ways to become immortal in a heavenly existence (where there is love and justice for all forever, the DOD).

4. Comparing all possible ways of achieving the DOD, the best or most credible way/hope at this point appears to be the God who resurrected Christ Jesus.

5. When words from God are sought, the NT teachings of Jesus and Paul seem to be the most highly inspired when compared with other scriptures (including the OT), because its concept of one God as the just and all-loving Judge (rationale for morality) is spiritually highest or most advanced, and the evidence for the resurrection of Jesus is most credible.

6. Thus, it is appropriate or wise to believe in the NT God and to accept Jesus as God’s Messiah.

Atheists deny the validity of this argument, but in the absence of disproof, I find the decision to reject the biblical gospel of salvation from selfishness, spiritual death, and a miserable destiny to be illogical or foolish. This is why all truthseekers should agree on NT theism now rather than assume atheism is an unlucky guess.

As someone has said, heaven is like a vision of water in the desert: the scoffer will surely die where he/she is, while the believer will live if right. Again, however, this analogy should be viewed in terms of comparison shopping and logic rather than of blind faith and fear. True love for God is evoked by His love for humanity and is a reflection of His loving Holy Spirit (1JN 4:7-12); it cannot be coerced, although it can be imitated (2CR 11:14 calls Satan an “angel of light”). Heaven may not be a mirage!

A biblical illustration of the PP is the OT story about Naaman being told to bathe in the dirty Jordan River to cure his leprosy (2KG 5:10-14). The Naaman Example teaches us not to let sinful pride prevent us from being cured of spiritual sickness by methods we think are silly or do not fully understand. Some people might not understand why God ordained Messiah to atone for humanity’s sins, so they think the Gospel seems foolish or silly (cf. 1CR 1:18-25). However, they accept physical reality without necessarily understanding very well how it works (cf. JN 3:8), and Jesus said that those who seek salvation will find it, which indicates that God graces every sinful soul with the ability or opportunity to understand how to be saved (MT 7:7, cf. 1TM 2:3-4), which might be called “seeking grace”.

Those who reject the PP (and Naaman Example) apparently employ a logical fallacy that might be called non praecedere (comparable to non sequitur), making an unwarranted conclusion which precedes unknown facts, namely the cause for the universe “banging bigly”. Atheists assume a natural cause will be discovered, but their assumption is premature and thus inappropriate.

 

[GWH]

So, how does the PP compare with your preferred way of reasoning with atheists and anti-Christians?

 

[GWH]

God's one requirement for salvation can be expressed in various ways that are summarized by the word "faith",
and in order to understand the biblical doctrine of salvation (soteriology) one needs to employ the semantic/hermeneutic gift
of "both-and" logic, which means being able to harmonize Scripture or see synonyms and essential similarities,
like describing different facets of one diamond or understanding anatomy by adding one system at a time.

Citing the need for logic/right reasoning is not intended to demean emotion. Both are important aspects of personality, but their relationship is analogous to that of saving faith and works: faith precedes love (per Gal. 5:6), and right reasoning should guide one’s emotion and hermeneutic. Right reasoning or logic functions in a way similar to the OT law: leading sinful souls to learn the need for God’s Gospel (Gal. 3:19-25).

Biblical passages that seem to support the view that human logic is a divine gift include the following:

1. “Come now, let us reason together,” says the Lord. (Isa. 1:18a)

2. “They hated me without reason.” (John 15:25)

3. “So [Paul] reasoned in the synagogue with the Jews and the God-fearing Greeks, as well as in the marketplace day by day with those who happened to be there.” (Acts 17:17)

4. “We do, however, speak a message of wisdom [right reasoning] among the mature…” (1Cor. 2:6)

5. “When I was a child… I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put childish ways behind me.” (1Cor. 13:11)

6. “Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have.” (1Pet. 3:15b)

These passages indicate that a good hermeneutic attempts to learn the best beliefs/opinions or solutions regarding issues
including the arguments or accusations of atheists (cf. 1Pet. 3:15).

 

[GWH]

Because God desires humanity to love one another, all who advocate hatred are atheists.
Throughout the history of humanity since Cain's murder of Abel, the world has been plagued by sinful hatred
and struggle caused by atheists wanting to be the "king of the hill" (KOTH). This struggle is described in the OT
as it pertained to the Israelites, and is summarized in the thread about the History of Beliefs (HOB).

Regarding the history of the USA, after declaring independence from England in 1776, winning it in the Revolutionary War and defending it in the War of 1812, slavery caused the Civil War in 1860 and then struggles for equality and the right for all citizens to vote threatened our unity. In the 1900s, dictators attacked freedom, provoking World War I in 1914, WWII in 1940 and the Korean War in 1950. Then the high cost and eventual loss of both the Vietnam War in 1973 and the War on Islamic Terrorists from 9-11-91 until 2019 divided and damaged our country. By 2022 the nation that began as a republic established by the U.S. Constitution appeared to be in danger of becoming an authoritarian socialist state.

While the history of wars against threats to liberty is fairly well known, what is only recently becoming apparent is the threat our disunity will end in Marxist socialism, which now governs most of the world and almost every aspect of our society–education, entertainment, news, social media, banking and monopolistic businesses–corrupting politicians and elections. The main cause of this corruption is that following WWII America allowed subversive educators to infiltrate universities, including Herbert Marcuse and Marxist Saul Alinsky, whose book "Rules for Radicals" was dedicated to Satan and which rules included deception and violence (the end justifies the means). The teachings of such radical professors has influenced many college students (including Hillary Clinton and Barack Obama) to favor socialist policies. (See "The War for America’s Soul" by Gorka, p. 59-65.) Many Americans are oblivious to the slow disintegration of the Constitutional consensus, because the owners of most news media were similarly educated and sympathetic.

A main financier of the socialist movement has been George Soros, who became a billionaire, established a network called the Open Society Foundation to promote a global government, and since 2003 has been financing numerous socialist groups in the U.S. (See The Shadow Party by Horowitz & Poe, p. 78-95 & 177-82.) Another leader of the globalist cabal or “new world order” is Klaus Schwab, founder of the World Economic Forum in 1971, which meets annually in Davos, Switzerland. He envisions a technological revolution that transforms the world (including America), converting humans who freely worship God into drones coerced by a fascist-communist state as in China. A prominent American participant in the WEF is Bill Gates. (See The Great Reset by A. Jones, p. 4-7, 28 & 95.)

The globalists began to conspire with communist China (the CCP) in 1978, when the Trilateral Commission befriended Chinese leaders and sought a New International Economic Order. Since then the CCP has pursued a clever strategy that has steadily weakened the U.S. as China gained power, currently on display as its military buildup, the COVID-19 pandemic, aggression against Taiwan and the “One Road One Belt” policy. It aims to surpass the U.S. and dominate Eurasia by the year 2049. (See Reset, p. 40-44 & War, p. 136.) And now, authoritative Biden administration dictates are weakening the U.S. and attempting to banish conservative Constitutionalist opposition. Much of the news media fail to report this truth, so that many people remain ignorant of the dissolution of the American dream of liberty for all (like frogs being boiled alive because the water temperature is raised slowly).

In 2024 the MAGA movement led by Donald Trump (which includes many Christians) won the election, and it has been trying to root out the Marxism and corruption in what is called the "deep state" or "swamp", but the question remains: Where will we go from here?

 

[GWH]

What a person believes about the moral attributes of God affects how he or she interprets God’s Word in the Bible, which is called “hermeneutics”. A Scripture-based hermeneutic is explained in Lesson 2 of our website entitled “The Christian Creed”, but it begins by believing that a person should triangulate from two key NT teachings in order to arrive at a correct understanding of problematic OT statements:

First, God loves and wants to save everyone (1Tim. 2:3-4, Eze. 33:11, Acts 17:26-28); Christ died to show God’s love and the possible salvation of all (Rom. 5:6-8) including His enemies (ungodly, atheist, anti-Christ).

Second, God is just (2Thes. 1:6a, cf. Rom. 3:25-26 & 9:14, Deut. 32:4, Psa. 36:6, Luke 11:42, Rev. 15:3). All explanations of reality and interpretations of Scripture should conform to this certitude: “The Lord is righteous in all his ways, and holy in all his works.” (Psa. 145:17) The Judge is just. It would be better not to attempt an explanation of God’s Word than to state one that impugns God’s justice and love for all people (Joel 2:13, John 3:16).

Even the wrath of God is an expression of His love. Hebrews 12:4-11 offers the clue for harmonizing these two themes. This passage indicates that divine wrath is intended as discipline: to teach people to repent of their hatefulness or faithlessness (Pro. 3:12, Isa. 33:14-15 Rev. 3:19) before they die, after which divine wrath will be experienced justly without the opportunity for repentance.

If a righteous explanation cannot be found for a passage, then it should be considered as historical or descriptive of what occurred rather than as pedagogical or prescriptive of how people should behave. Of course, because God is loving and just, He does not tempt, trick, confuse or otherwise contribute to anyone’s sinfulness. On the contrary, God must be doing all that He can do without abrogating justice or volition (MFW) to influence people not to be deceived and become self-condemned (Jam. 1:13-17, Tit. 3:11, Isa. 45:19).

This realization should steer us away from the problematic opinion (a la Augustine via John Calvin) that God predestines most people for hell and lead us to affirm moral free will as a paradoxical fact (Deut. 30:19). It is paradoxical, because it affirms both that God is sovereign and that God chooses not to control moral thinking, because doing so would nullify human responsibility for sin, making the biblical revelation of salvation based on repentance irrelevant and absurd.

 

[GWH]

What a person believes about the moral attributes of God affects how he or she interprets God’s Word in the Bible, which is called “hermeneutics”. A Scripture-based hermeneutic is explained in Lesson 2 of our website entitled “The Christian Creed”, but it begins by believing that a person should triangulate from two key NT teachings in order to arrive at a correct understanding of problematic OT statements:

First, God loves and wants to save everyone (1Tim. 2:3-4, Eze. 33:11, Acts 17:26-28); Christ died to show God’s love and the possible salvation of all (Rom. 5:6-8) including His enemies (ungodly, atheist, anti-Christ).

Second, God is just (2Thes. 1:6a, cf. Rom. 3:25-26 & 9:14, Deut. 32:4, Psa. 36:6, Luke 11:42, Rev. 15:3). All explanations of reality and interpretations of Scripture should conform to this certitude: “The Lord is righteous in all his ways, and holy in all his works.” (Psa. 145:17) The Judge is just. It would be better not to attempt an explanation of God’s Word than to state one that impugns God’s justice and love for all people (Joel 2:13, John 3:16).

Even the wrath of God is an expression of His love. Hebrews 12:4-11 offers the clue for harmonizing these two themes. This passage indicates that divine wrath is intended as discipline: to teach people to repent of their hatefulness or faithlessness (Pro. 3:12, Isa. 33:14-15 Rev. 3:19) before they die, after which divine wrath will be experienced justly without the opportunity for repentance.

If a righteous explanation cannot be found for a passage, then it should be considered as historical or descriptive of what occurred rather than as pedagogical or prescriptive of how people should behave. Of course, because God is loving and just, He does not tempt, trick, confuse or otherwise contribute to anyone’s sinfulness. On the contrary, God must be doing all that He can do without abrogating justice or volition (MFW) to influence people not to be deceived and become self-condemned (Jam. 1:13-17, Tit. 3:11, Isa. 45:19).

This realization should steer us away from the problematic opinion (a la Augustine via John Calvin) that God predestines most people for hell and lead us to affirm moral free will as a paradoxical fact (Deut. 30:19). It is paradoxical, because it affirms both that God is sovereign and that God chooses not to control moral thinking, because doing so would nullify human responsibility for sin, making the biblical revelation of salvation based on repentance irrelevant and absurd.

Hopefully those playing ping-pong on other threads will be edified by the reposting of this truth.