Apologetics: witnessing to atheists

[LTL]

I grew up with Christian parents and my life revolved around church, but as a high school senior I encountered atheism when a friend became an atheist and my favorite teacher had been a minister but was agnostic. This prompted me to search Scripture for answers that the pastor's weekly sermons about how to be saved had not taught. Eventually I felt led to become a minister in order to share the answers I found with Christians who might witness to atheist friends or at least be edified and not deceived by their argumenta. As a military chaplain I debated atheists on the AKO online forum, and I was invited to speak at a meeting of the atheists in Austin. Now that I am retired, I would like to pass on what the Lord has taught me before I die to those on CC. I have a similar hope with regard to people claiming to be theists and Christians who have heretical beliefs, so I amended the OP to include them.

I began philosophically like Rene Descartes (d.1650) by exploring whether there is some truth everyone affirms at least implicitly and uses as a common point of departure in discussing ultimate reality, and I proposed three axiomatic truths that even skeptics talk as though they assume: 1. the reality of the student, 2. finite human beings cannot know absolutely, infallibly, perfectly or objectively as David Hume (d. 1776) opined (cf. 1Cor. 13:9&12, 2Cor. 5:7), and 3. uncertainty does not prevent knowledge with sufficient confidence even when communicating doubts. Thus we all ought to be willing to witness with the understanding that truth is believable, rational and meaningful, even though unprovable or subjective. In the words of Isaiah 1:18a (c.735 B.C.), “Come now, let us reason together.” Discussion of ultimate reality uses a common language as the means, and I hope English will suffice for you and me.

Believing that truth is unified and so it does not matter much where discussion begins, I sought to discern the logical point from which the varieties of beliefs extant in the world diverge. Although only a newborn begins with a blank slate, I began by being unbiased and imagining that I suddenly began to exist as an adult human being, like Adam and Eve in Genesis. I guessed that my immediate concern would be survival needs, but as soon as there was time for reflection, perhaps I would wonder why I was “born”, how I should behave, and what I ought to accomplish with my life. As I pondered these questions, I discerned two qualitatively different answers.

Do you want to guess what they were?

I will guess but I am sure that my answer will be wrong. But before I do, then please consider the Savior's doctrine that is not imparted to man in general but reserved for the few.

So lets say that once converted then we know the entire plan of salvation. And that is clearly false. We may however know the basic framework of the plan, but not the comprehensive details. And then Satan perverts what little was learned and twists the new student into false doctrines.

And as time goes along the student of salvation learns more along with the false doctrines that were perverted by Satan and an unclear picture of the plan of salvation is held by the student to the point that a similar belief system is accepted as true. And the student fellowships with like kind. This type of learning and belief clearly has the framework of the plan, but lacks the finer details.

These doctrinal beliefs can be easily seen in the LDS, JW, among others. And they believe what they believe along with the errors in their understandings. The same goes for all other Christian beliefs. So what you believe has errors although the framework is correct. And that framework is that Jesus was born upon this earth and paid his life for the salvation of souls. And some denominations have more accurate details associated with the plan than do others.

And the church age is where the saints enjoy the freedom to discern as they wish and they all have salvation in the kingdom of God. But now we are moving beyond the church age into the reign of Jesus Christ upon the earth. This period of time is marked by the Savior's doctrine only. Thus, all the little variations that exist in the church doctrines with no longer exist. We will have the Savior's doctrine only.

The first to have the Savior's doctrine are the 144,000 servants that are called to serve the Savior. They know and will be taught further with respect to his doctrine. If you do not know that John the Apostle is the Davidic King of our time then you will not survive the tribulation.

First of all we were born spiritually first. This was accomplished by accepting Jesus Christ as our God. I do not understand the overall mechanics of this birth but it was before the world was created. That is, in the beginning was the Word, and he is God.

Then the plan of Salvation was given wherein we would be free to choose good or evil. The leaders who were to teach the plan were called. Lucifer was rejected as one of these leaders. So he rebelled to over throw God. And he along with his supporters were cast to the earth. So he is the evil and Jesus is the good and by these two we are to choose how to live our lives. Those who choose Jesus and work to remain faithful have salvation to live with God for ever. Those who do not are consigned to hell and later to be cast out.

So we do not begin with a blank slate. Jesus knew who he was. And John the baptist recognized him from the womb. We have callings that we are sworn to fulfill. And you have done your part. Since you have not been invited to know and understand the next phase then you will go to your glorious reward. However, if you can move forward then please do.

The first qualitative answer is that you accepted the salvation of Jesus Christ for your eternal reward.
The second is that you chose to serve the Savior.

 

[GWH]

I will guess but I am sure that my answer will be wrong. But before I do, then please consider the Savior's doctrine that is not imparted to man in general but reserved for the few.

So lets say that once converted then we know the entire plan of salvation. And that is clearly false. We may however know the basic framework of the plan, but not the comprehensive details. And then Satan perverts what little was learned and twists the new student into false doctrines.

And as time goes along the student of salvation learns more along with the false doctrines that were perverted by Satan and an unclear picture of the plan of salvation is held by the student to the point that a similar belief system is accepted as true. And the student fellowships with like kind. This type of learning and belief clearly has the framework of the plan, but lacks the finer details.

These doctrinal beliefs can be easily seen in the LDS, JW, among others. And they believe what they believe along with the errors in their understandings. The same goes for all other Christian beliefs. So what you believe has errors although the framework is correct. And that framework is that Jesus was born upon this earth and paid his life for the salvation of souls. And some denominations have more accurate details associated with the plan than do others.

And the church age is where the saints enjoy the freedom to discern as they wish and they all have salvation in the kingdom of God. But now we are moving beyond the church age into the reign of Jesus Christ upon the earth. This period of time is marked by the Savior's doctrine only. Thus, all the little variations that exist in the church doctrines with no longer exist. We will have the Savior's doctrine only.

The first to have the Savior's doctrine are the 144,000 servants that are called to serve the Savior. They know and will be taught further with respect to his doctrine. If you do not know that John the Apostle is the Davidic King of our time then you will not survive the tribulation.

First of all we were born spiritually first. This was accomplished by accepting Jesus Christ as our God. I do not understand the overall mechanics of this birth but it was before the world was created. That is, in the beginning was the Word, and he is God.

Then the plan of Salvation was given wherein we would be free to choose good or evil. The leaders who were to teach the plan were called. Lucifer was rejected as one of these leaders. So he rebelled to over throw God. And he along with his supporters were cast to the earth. So he is the evil and Jesus is the good and by these two we are to choose how to live our lives. Those who choose Jesus and work to remain faithful have salvation to live with God for ever. Those who do not are consigned to hell and later to be cast out.

So we do not begin with a blank slate. Jesus knew who he was. And John the baptist recognized him from the womb. We have callings that we are sworn to fulfill. And you have done your part. Since you have not been invited to know and understand the next phase then you will go to your glorious reward. However, if you can move forward then please do.

The first qualitative answer is that you accepted the salvation of Jesus Christ for your eternal reward.
The second is that you chose to serve the Savior.

Okay, but add TULIP to LDS and JW regarding false doctrines.
Yes, at the end the Savior's true doctrine will be agreed upon by all Christians--an amazing miracle!
Tribulation must end with translation/rapture/resurrection to harmonize with Paul in 1Thes. 4:13-17 & 1Cor. 15:51-54.

 

[LTL]

Okay, but add TULIP to LDS and JW regarding false doctrines.
Yes, at the end the Savior's true doctrine will be agreed upon by all Christians--an amazing miracle!
Tribulation must end with translation/rapture/resurrection to harmonize with Paul in 1Thes. 4:13-17 & 1Cor. 15:51-54.

The doctrine you believe is equally as false as the LDS and JW.
Only those who accept the Davidic King, the representative of Jesus Christ, will live beyond the seven years into the millennium.
The tribulation proper is 3.5-years long and ends when the saints are gathered and the beast is destroyed. After that the gospel is preached throughout the world to gather those who are willing to accept Jesus in the 3.5-year judgment. The terms of the judgment are given in Rev. 16.

GWH, you still have time to come with us. But the decision is not mine to make. The Moses of Rev. 15:3 is the Davidic King John, the great apostle of Jesus Christ who wrote the revelation to his 144,000 servants, standing with Christ as noted in Rev. 14:1. If you do not have this testimony then it was not given to you from the Father and you are not called to this office.

 

[GWH]

The doctrine you believe is equally as false as the LDS and JW.
Only those who accept the Davidic King, the representative of Jesus Christ, will live beyond the seven years into the millennium.
The tribulation proper is 3.5-years long and ends when the saints are gathered and the beast is destroyed. After that the gospel is preached throughout the world to gather those who are willing to accept Jesus in the 3.5-year judgment. The terms of the judgment are given in Rev. 16.

GWH, you still have time to come with us. But the decision is not mine to make. The Moses of Rev. 15:3 is the Davidic King John, the great apostle of Jesus Christ who wrote the revelation to his 144,000 servants, standing with Christ as noted in Rev. 14:1. If you do not have this testimony then it was not given to you from the Father and you are not called to this office.

I discern that you are nutso if you believe tulip or that you have deciphered Rev!

Christ is King/Lord. No pope/other representative, including you (1Tim. 2:5).

 

[LTL]

I discern that you are nutso if you believe tulip or that you have deciphered Rev!

Christ is King/Lord. No pope/other representative, including you (1Tim. 2:5).

I do not know what tulip is.
And yes, I have interpretated the Book of Revelation to the metaphorical level.
Christ presides over kings (Rev. 17:14).
The Pope is the beast of Rev. 13:11 and is a devil.
I do not represent the Savior in the capacity of David King, but John does.

So you have not been called to serve in the tribulation and that is okay. We have about two months left. Get ready.

 

[GWH]

I do not know what tulip is.
And yes, I have interpretated the Book of Revelation to the metaphorical level.
Christ presides over kings (Rev. 17:14).
The Pope is the beast of Rev. 13:11 and is a devil.
I do not represent the Savior in the capacity of David King, but John does.

So you have not been called to serve in the tribulation and that is okay. We have about two months left. Get ready.

Well, if you Googled TULIP, hopefully you would learn why it should be classified with LDS and JW.

My interpretation of Rev is in the "How do angels jibe with the Holy Spirit?" thread.
Yes, John describes the end times in terms of old testament prophecies.

IMO Paul harmonizes with Jesus (in Matt. 24:37-44) by viewing the rapture as ending the tribulation.
I am ready.

 

[LTL]

Well, if you Googled TULIP, hopefully you would learn why it should be classified with LDS and JW.

My interpretation of Rev is in the "How do angels jibe with the Holy Spirit?" thread.
Yes, John describes the end times in terms of old testament prophecies.

IMO Paul harmonizes with Jesus (in Matt. 24:37-44) by viewing the rapture as ending the tribulation.
I am ready.

We see evidence of the rapture in WW1 and WW2 and the same will be here in WW3. That evidence is that the rapture does not exist. Like beam me up Scotty. Not.

I looked at TULIP and it does not define a specific religion but a set of ideas that several beliefs have. I do not understand the need for the categorizing. Perhaps a way to define those guys from these guys when they all practice false doctrines.

The beam me up Scotty doctrine is silly. We all will live through the tribulation. That is, all the ones who survive. The majority will not survive. The rapture is a contract that death will pass you by. Very classic LDS doctrine that is common in Christian churches. JW may also have that doctrine; the contract with death.

 

[GWH]

We see evidence of the rapture in WW1 and WW2 and the same will be here in WW3. That evidence is that the rapture does not exist. Like beam me up Scotty. Not.

I looked at TULIP and it does not define a specific religion but a set of ideas that several beliefs have. I do not understand the need for the categorizing. Perhaps a way to define those guys from these guys when they all practice false doctrines.

The beam me up Scotty doctrine is silly. We all will live through the tribulation. That is, all the ones who survive. The majority will not survive. The rapture is a contract that death will pass you by. Very classic LDS doctrine that is common in Christian churches. JW may also have that doctrine; the contract with death.

The rapture occurs at the end of history/tribulation, which does not yet exist.

TULIP is very specific.

 

[CS1]

We see evidence of the rapture in WW1 and WW2 and the same will be here in WW3. That evidence is that the rapture does not exist. Like beam me up Scotty. Not.

I looked at TULIP and it does not define a specific religion but a set of ideas that several beliefs have. I do not understand the need for the categorizing. Perhaps a way to define those guys from these guys when they all practice false doctrines.

The beam me up Scotty doctrine is silly. We all will live through the tribulation. That is, all the ones who survive. The majority will not survive. The rapture is a contract that death will pass you by. Very classic LDS doctrine that is common in Christian churches. JW may also have that doctrine; the contract with death.

2Peter 3:3-4 NLT

3 Most importantly, I want to remind you that in the last days scoffers will come, mocking the truth and following their own desires.
4 They will say, “What happened to the promise that Jesus is coming again? From before the times of our ancestors, everything has remained the same since the world was first created.”

 

[GWH]

2Peter 3:3-4 NLT

3 Most importantly, I want to remind you that in the last days scoffers will come, mocking the truth and following their own desires.
4 They will say, “What happened to the promise that Jesus is coming again? From before the times of our ancestors, everything has remained the same since the world was first created.”

Yes, and do not omit verse 8: "To the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years is like a day."

 

[CS1]

Yes, and do not omit verse 8: "To the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years is like a day."

I did not omit it, and that verse is saying that the timing of God is not man's timing, for GOD is timeless. Good try to suggest I omitted something when it was you who did so.

 

[LTL]

The rapture occurs at the end of history/tribulation, which does not yet exist.

TULIP is very specific.

If TULIP is specific then what church is it?

 

[GWH]

If TULIP is specific then what church is it?

Not sure, but on CC its members post in the "Calvinism is Gospel" thread.

 

[CS1]

Not sure, but on CC its members post in the "Calvinism is Gospel" thread.

many threads posted by members don't mean CC support the context. That's a good thing so all can provide input or opinions

 

[LTL]

many threads posted by members don't mean CC support the context. That's a good thing so all can provide input or opinions

Who cares about Calvinism? I do not know the doctrine but it has false elememts to the doctrine as do all Christian denominations and churches.

Why do you guys think your church doctrine is true and correct? It is a silly foundation to proceed from.

Here are the basics.
1) Israel was born when Moses led the people on the exodus.
2) As time went by then Israel was presided over by judges.
3) The people wanted a king.
4) Saul was chosen and then the kingship went to David, a son in Judah.
5) The Davidic kingship descended through time to Jesus Christ.
6) Jesus appointed John to be the next Davidic King.
7) John is the Davidic King today.

As the tribulation begins then John will participate with his appointed 144,000 servants.

Any church not teaching this is not teachings the Savior's doctrine. There is no church upon the earth teaching this doctrine. This is the correct foundation of the Savior's gospel message. He has his servants prepared to respond to the wicked beast of Rev. 13. They are ready to serve and you guys do not have a clue because it is not taught in your churches.

 

[CS1]

Who cares about Calvinism? I do not know the doctrine but it has false elememts to the doctrine as do all Christian denominations and churches.

Why do you guys think your church doctrine is true and correct? It is a silly foundation to proceed from.

Here are the basics.
1) Israel was born when Moses led the people on the exodus.
2) As time went by then Israel was presided over by judges.
3) The people wanted a king.
4) Saul was chosen and then the kingship went to David, a son in Judah.
5) The Davidic kingship descended through time to Jesus Christ.
6) Jesus appointed John to be the next Davidic King.
7) John is the Davidic King today.

As the tribulation begins then John will participate with his appointed 144,000 servants.

Any church not teaching this is not teachings the Savior's doctrine. There is no church upon the earth teaching this doctrine. This is the correct foundation of the Savior's gospel message. He has his servants prepared to respond to the wicked beast of Rev. 13. They are ready to serve and you guys do not have a clue because it is not taught in your churches.

First off, slow down Trigger. I am not a Calvinist. Secondly Doctrine means teaching. You have it also if you are Orthodox Christian.

1. Israel was born when God changed Jacob to Israel.
2. as time went By the People of Israel were in captivity in Egypt after Joseph Died.
3. God told Moses that the People would get a King in Deuteronomy 17:14-20,
4. It was not until that Generation all died and The time of the Judges has come to end with Samuel the last Judge then the time of the king
5. The Seed of David would bring forth the Messiah as The Genealogy of Jesus is seen in Matthew and Luke one from David the other from Adam.
6. Jesus did not appoint John to be the next King
7. That is the most foolish thing I heard all day. was your 6&7
You have the gull to say we don't know the word of God LOL. what a Troll.

 

[PaulThomson]

My reason for beginning this thread is simply to share my fallible faith with atheists, hoping they will find what I have learned helpful for understanding ultimate truth. I am grateful to all people—famous philosophers and anonymous acquaintances—who have helped shape my beliefs.

I believe reality is interconnected or unified, so that it is not necessary to worry about where to start exploring, but I will begin by asking the following philosophical question: Is there some truth which is not debatable; which everyone believes at least implicitly and uses as a common point of departure in discussing ultimate reality? I think there is such axiomatic truth, because in order to study reality it appears that one must (logically or implicitly) begin by assuming at least the reality of the student. Thus, absolute skepticism in philosophy is like absolute zero in physics: it serves as a hypothetical point that is not actually achieved or else nothing would happen (even in ice .

An “ism” affirms some valid part of reality. The truth represented by skepticism is that finite human beings cannot know absolutely, infallibly, perfectly or objectively. I find this truth expressed by the apostle Paul in the New Testament (NT) book of 1 Corinthians 13:9&12, “We know in part . . . We see but a poor reflection” (as in a fogged mirror).

The element of uncertainty does not prevent would-be skeptics from talking as if knowledge with some degree of confidence were possible the moment they attempt to communicate their doubts. An agnostic has “certain” assumptions at least implicitly; so, what do y'all think are three pre-Scriptural axiomatic truths revealed via right logic?

Over...

This is not an exhaustive list, but -

1. Things exists.
2. I have a sense of myself as something that exists.
3. I have a sense that things and persons that are not myself also exist.
4. There are recurring patterns in reality.
5. Reality is constantly changing.
6. Time exists.
7. Space exists.

Does anyone here dispute that these observations are true?

 

[GWH]

This is not an exhaustive list, but -

1. Things exists.
2. I have a sense of myself as something that exists.
3. I have a sense that things and persons that are not myself also exist.
4. There are recurring patterns in reality.
5. Reality is constantly changing.
6. Time exists.
7. Space exists.

Does anyone here dispute that these observations are true?

Not I, although I view those items as subsumed in my first two a priori or unavoidable beliefs:

1. Truth or reality (your #1&4-7) exists. The classic expression of this belief was by Rene Descartes (d.1650): cogito ergo sum: “I think, therefore I am”. The OT says in Exo. 3:14 that God is “I am” (the essence of existence).

2. (Objective) reality is subjectively known by seekers (your #2&3, cf. Rodin’s sculpture; thinking is believing). David Hume (d. 1776) was a notable proponent of this opinion, and 2Cor. 5:7 expresses this truth by saying, “We live by faith, not by sight” (or proof, cf. 1Cor. 13:9&12 cited previously).

Our discussion illustrates my third axiomatic truth:

3. Reality is meaningful and communicable or able to be discussed rationally in fellowship with other truthseekers. As Isa. 1:18a (c.735 B.C.) says, “Come now, let us reason together.” Perhaps whoever invented language should be regarded as the founder of this fact, because the discussion of reality uses language as the means, and in order to communicate sufficiently for attaining agreement or unity, it is necessary to have a common language and cultural context. (I hope that as Earthlings using English these needs are met for you and me

Having established three unavoidable or axiomatic beliefs, my intent was to discuss next the logical point from which the varieties of beliefs extant in the world diverge.

 

[CS1]

This is not an exhaustive list, but -

1. Things exists.
2. I have a sense of myself as something that exists.
3. I have a sense that things and persons that are not myself also exist.
4. There are recurring patterns in reality.
5. Reality is constantly changing.
6. Time exists.
7. Space exists.

Does anyone here dispute that these observations are true?

Is this list one created with out God in the Context?

1.Things did not just appear. They were created
2. Ones self did not exist until they were born Formed in the womb as God intended
3. all thing we see where created Roman chapter 1 tell us that God made it plain for us to see Him by what He made
4. God lives outside Time and Space they do not control him The reality of God is in each one of us because we were created to know God.

 

[GWH]

Is this list one created with out God in the Context?

1.Things did not just appear. They were created
2. Ones self did not exist until they were born Formed in the womb as God intended
3. all thing we see where created Roman chapter 1 tell us that God made it plain for us to see Him by what He made
4. God lives outside Time and Space they do not control him The reality of God is in each one of us because we were created to know God.

This list include beliefs every atheist cannot avoid/deny.

Belief in God is the logical point at which the varieties of beliefs in the world (including denominations of atheism) diverge.