Apologetics: witnessing to atheists

[LTL]

My comment was to LTL who claimed it was a waste of time teaching the gospel to atheists. I said we're supposed to spread it

S,
the gospel is easy to understand. If an atheist with a sincere heart wants to learn the gospel message there are hundreds of saints willing to teach them. For me however, the goal is to help saints navigate the tribulation that is coming very soon.

 

[LTL]

I didn't mention any rapture doctrine. My post was about your claim that the apostle John was a Davidic king.

The verses you quote from Revelation do not mention John himself being a king.

That is so funny because there are many verses in Revelation that calls the servants of God kings. Look at Rev. 1:4-7, Rev. 17:14, etc.

 

[LTL]

I am glad we agree; spiritual unity is good.

So the message is not for you and I am free of any obligation to you in this regard. For those who may feel the prompting of the spirit then it falls upon you to learn of the Savior's servant here in the last days.

 

[DavidLamb]

That is so funny because there are many verses in Revelation that calls the servants of God kings. Look at Rev. 1:4-7, Rev. 17:14, etc.

I agree, but not Davidic kings, nor is John singled out as being made a king by God:

NKJV Rev 1:6 and has made us kings and priests to His God and Father, to Him be glory and dominion forever and ever. Amen.

Not "and has made me a king."

Revelation 17:14 mentions that Jesus Christ is King of kings, but not that John specifically is a king:

NKJV Rev 17:14 These will make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb will overcome them, for He is Lord of lords and King of kings; and those who are with Him are called, chosen, and faithful."

Peter also writes about Christians being kings and priests:

NKJV 1Pe 2:9 But you are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, His own special people, that you may proclaim the praises of Him who called you out of darkness into His marvelous light;

Again, that refers to all Christians, not John in particular. And of course no mention of Davidic kings.

 

[LTL]

I agree, but not Davidic kings, nor is John singled out as being made a king by God:

NKJV Rev 1:6 and has made us kings and priests to His God and Father, to Him be glory and dominion forever and ever. Amen.

Not "and has made me a king."

Revelation 17:14 mentions that Jesus Christ is King of kings, but not that John specifically is a king:

NKJV Rev 17:14 These will make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb will overcome them, for He is Lord of lords and King of kings; and those who are with Him are called, chosen, and faithful."

Peter also writes about Christians being kings and priests:

NKJV 1Pe 2:9 But you are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, His own special people, that you may proclaim the praises of Him who called you out of darkness into His marvelous light;

Again, that refers to all Christians, not John in particular. And of course no mention of Davidic kings.

D, I understand where you are at.

Again, Jesus was a Davidic King in a long line of Davidic Kings which continues today with John who was appointed by Jesus when he was on the cross. That is, Jesus appointed John as Mary's son making him the next Davidic King.

You have this information and have rejected it. And, that is okay. However, only John's people will survive the tribulation. He is the only person who can access the Davidic Covenant.

 

[DavidLamb]

D, I understand where you are at.

Again, Jesus was a Davidic King in a long line of Davidic Kings which continues today with John who was appointed by Jesus when he was on the cross. That is, Jesus appointed John as Mary's son making him the next Davidic King.

You have this information and have rejected it. And, that is okay. However, only John's people will survive the tribulation. He is the only person who can access the Davidic Covenant.

That is a huge leap from Jesus committing Mary into John's care to claiming that meant that John was from then on a descendant of David, the next Davidic king. And, as I have asked you before, where in the Bible are we told that only John's people will survive the tribulation? And where are we told that we need to access a Davidic covenant? Rather, Jesus Christ is called the Mediator of the new covenant:

NKJV Heb 9:11 But Christ came as High Priest of the good things to come, with the greater and more perfect tabernacle not made with hands, that is, not of this creation.
Heb 9:12 Not with the blood of goats and calves, but with His own blood He entered the Most Holy Place once for all, having obtained eternal redemption.
Heb 9:13 For if the blood of bulls and goats and the ashes of a heifer, sprinkling the unclean, sanctifies for the purifying of the flesh,
Heb 9:14 how much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered Himself without spot to God, cleanse your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?
Heb 9:15 And for this reason He is the Mediator of the new covenant, by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions under the first covenant, that those who are called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance.

 

[GWH]

So the message is not for you and I am free of any obligation to you in this regard. For those who may feel the prompting of the spirit then it falls upon you to learn of the Savior's servant here in the last days.

The Spirit leads me to see that humanity has experienced tribulation throughout history,
and many Christians around the world are now being persecuted and murdered because of their faith.

I am thankful that in the USA the persecution has not martyred many yet recently other than Charlie Kirk,
but I hope we are able to navigate our way out of the current communist attempt to capture us.

 

[LTL]

The Spirit leads me to see that humanity has experienced tribulation throughout history,
and many Christians around the world are now being persecuted and murdered because of their faith.

I am thankful that in the USA the persecution has not martyred many yet recently other than Charlie Kirk,
but I hope we are able to navigate our way out of the current communist attempt to capture us.

The fall of the US is at our doors and this is Rev. 8:8-9. In association with that is the rise of the beast in Rev. 13:1. These two actions begin the seven year tribulation proper.

Yes. Who killed Charlie Kirk and why? It seems to be a repeat of the JFK murder and the ones who did that is the CIA and the mob.

 

[LTL]

That is a huge leap from Jesus committing Mary into John's care to claiming that meant that John was from then on a descendant of David, the next Davidic king. And, as I have asked you before, where in the Bible are we told that only John's people will survive the tribulation? And where are we told that we need to access a Davidic covenant? Rather, Jesus Christ is called the Mediator of the new covenant:

NKJV Heb 9:11 But Christ came as High Priest of the good things to come, with the greater and more perfect tabernacle not made with hands, that is, not of this creation.
Heb 9:12 Not with the blood of goats and calves, but with His own blood He entered the Most Holy Place once for all, having obtained eternal redemption.
Heb 9:13 For if the blood of bulls and goats and the ashes of a heifer, sprinkling the unclean, sanctifies for the purifying of the flesh,
Heb 9:14 how much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered Himself without spot to God, cleanse your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?
Heb 9:15 And for this reason He is the Mediator of the new covenant, by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions under the first covenant, that those who are called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance.

D, you are mixing apples and oranges. I am talking about the Davidic King and the line of the Davidic Kings. Jesus, although a Davidic King and one member of this Davidic line is also the eternal Savior. And as your Heb. 9:15 quote shows, he is the mediator of the new covanant, that of salvation and eternal life through Christ.

If you can not discern between the two then so be it.

 

[GWH]

The fall of the US is at our doors and this is Rev. 8:8-9. In association with that is the rise of the beast in Rev. 13:1. These two actions begin the seven year tribulation proper.

Yes. Who killed Charlie Kirk and why? It seems to be a repeat of the JFK murder and the ones who did that is the CIA and the mob.

Okay, I'll bite. Why do you think Rev. 8:8-9 refers to the USA in association with Satan standing on the shore of the sea and a beast coming out of the sea?

 

[DavidLamb]

D, you are mixing apples and oranges. I am talking about the Davidic King and the line of the Davidic Kings. Jesus, although a Davidic King and one member of this Davidic line is also the eternal Savior. And as your Heb. 9:15 quote shows, he is the mediator of the new covanant, that of salvation and eternal life through Christ.

If you can not discern between the two then so be it.

Jesus was both king and eternal Saviour. I know that. My post was questioning your assertion, stated nowhere in Scripture, that Jesus appointed John to replace Him as king. That doesn't make sense anyway, because Jesus Himself is still king in Revelation. For example:

Rev 15:3 They sing the song of Moses, the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying: "Great and marvelous are Your works, Lord God Almighty! Just and true are Your ways, O King of the saints!

"The Lamb" Whose song it is, is Jesus Christ.

 

[CS1]

That is a huge leap from Jesus committing Mary into John's care to claiming that meant that John was from then on a descendant of David, the next Davidic king. And, as I have asked you before, where in the Bible are we told that only John's people will survive the tribulation? And where are we told that we need to access a Davidic covenant? Rather, Jesus Christ is called the Mediator of the new covenant:

NKJV Heb 9:11 But Christ came as High Priest of the good things to come, with the greater and more perfect tabernacle not made with hands, that is, not of this creation.
Heb 9:12 Not with the blood of goats and calves, but with His own blood He entered the Most Holy Place once for all, having obtained eternal redemption.
Heb 9:13 For if the blood of bulls and goats and the ashes of a heifer, sprinkling the unclean, sanctifies for the purifying of the flesh,
Heb 9:14 how much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered Himself without spot to God, cleanse your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?
Heb 9:15 And for this reason He is the Mediator of the new covenant, by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions under the first covenant, that those who are called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance.

amen Jesus is a King to no end. His reign is FOREVER and Ever amen.

 

[CS1]

D, you are mixing apples and oranges. I am talking about the Davidic King and the line of the Davidic Kings. Jesus, although a Davidic King and one member of this Davidic line is also the eternal Savior. And as your Heb. 9:15 quote shows, he is the mediator of the new covanant, that of salvation and eternal life through Christ.

If you can not discern between the two then so be it.

This what I am talking about. LTL and other like you want to insult others here on CC who disagree with you and provide biblical text. Saying one doesn't know how to discern, Yet you did not even (LTL) deal with the Verses in Revelation 11:15

in fact there are Several passages in Revelation highlight Jesus' eternal kingship.

• Revelation 11:15 — This verse proclaims that the kingdoms of the world belong to Jesus, affirming His reign forever.
• Revelation 19:16 — Jesus is described as "King of kings and Lord of lords," underscoring His supreme authority.
• Revelation 1:6 — Believers are made a kingdom and priests, indicating their relationship with the eternal King.

FYI where in Revelation calls Jesus the LAMB is speaking of the Eternal Sacrifice that was the only one accepted for payment of all sin for ever.

HE is a King forever
He is the Lamb that took away the sin Forever
He is Lord or lords and King of kings FOREVER!!!!

You can't see that ? You can't Discern that ? Asking for a friend.

 

[LTL]

Okay, I'll bite. Why do you think Rev. 8:8-9 refers to the USA in association with Satan standing on the shore of the sea and a beast coming out of the sea?

Thank you G,
I knew that you have a heart of gold.

The beast coming out of the sea is the wicked leader (beast) coming forth from mankind (sea). Thus, in the Book of Revelation any reference to the sea is a reference to the followers of this wicked leader. And example of this is in Chapter Sixteen where the followers of the beast of the sea are condemned (Rev. 16:3).

3And the second angel poured out his vial upon the sea; and it became as the blood of a dead man: and every living soul died in the sea.

Another example is Rev. 10:2 where the angel stands with authority over the earth and the sea meaning that he has authority over the followers of the Rev. 13:1 beast and the followers of the Rev. 13:11 beast.

2And he had in his hand a little book open: and he set his right foot upon the sea, and his left foot on the earth,

I realize these things are hard to see but if you keep and open mind then it may be given to you.

Thus, in Rev. 8:7 both the beast of the sea and the beast of the earth rise (Rev. 13:1 and Rev. 13:11).

7The first angel sounded, and there followed hail (Rev. 13:11) and fire (Rev. 13:1) mingled with blood (mankind) and they (hail and fire) were cast upon the earth (upon the world stage): and the third part of trees (leaders) was burnt up and all green grass (followers) was burnt up (lost their salvation in Christ by following Lucifer's two leaders)

And next in Rev. 8:8-9 we see the actions of the Rev. 13:1 beast.

8And the second angel sounded, and as it were a great mountain (a great nation) burning with fire (burning with the actions of the 13:1 beast from 8:7 above) was cast into the sea (cast into servitude of the 13:1 beast, Rev. 18:21) : and the third part of the sea became blood (the followers of the 13:1 beast); 9And the third part of the creatures (people) which were in the sea (following the 13:1 beast), and had life (had life in Christ), died (died the eternal death Rev. 12:4); and the third part of the ships were destroyed The destruction of this nation includes the destruction of its ships which is its navy.

I realize that reading the metaphors is not easy but some day you may decide to do that.

 

[LTL]

This what I am talking about. LTL and other like you want to insult others here on CC who disagree with you and provide biblical text. Saying one doesn't know how to discern, Yet you did not even (LTL) deal with the Verses in Revelation 11:15

in fact there are Several passages in Revelation highlight Jesus' eternal kingship.

• Revelation 11:15 — This verse proclaims that the kingdoms of the world belong to Jesus, affirming His reign forever.
• Revelation 19:16 — Jesus is described as "King of kings and Lord of lords," underscoring His supreme authority.
• Revelation 1:6 — Believers are made a kingdom and priests, indicating their relationship with the eternal King.

FYI where in Revelation calls Jesus the LAMB is speaking of the Eternal Sacrifice that was the only one accepted for payment of all sin for ever.

HE is a King forever
He is the Lamb that took away the sin Forever
He is Lord or lords and King of kings FOREVER!!!!

You can't see that ? You can't Discern that ? Asking for a friend.

C, lets examine the three verses you referenced. KJV

11:15And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices (saints) in heaven (on the earth), saying, The kingdoms of this world (the kingdoms of this earth) are become the kingdoms of our Lord (have become the kingdoms of John the Davidic King), and of his Christ (and of Jesus Christ); and he (Jesus Christ) shall reign for ever and ever.

19:16And he (Jesus) hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.

1:6And (John the Davidic King) hath made us kings and priests unto God (Jesus) and his Father (God the Father); to him (God the Father) be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

C,
I do not see a problem in reading these verses.

 

[CS1]

C, lets examine the three verses you referenced. KJV

11:15And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices (saints) in heaven (on the earth), saying, The kingdoms of this world (the kingdoms of this earth) are become the kingdoms of our Lord (have become the kingdoms of John the Davidic King), and of his Christ (and of Jesus Christ); and he (Jesus Christ) shall reign for ever and ever.

19:16And he (Jesus) hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.

1:6And (John the Davidic King) hath made us kings and priests unto God (Jesus) and his Father (God the Father); to him (God the Father) be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

C,
I do not see a problem in reading these verses.

YOU added to the text. I just want to post this then I am done with you. I think you are still a troll and from an unbiblical sect maybe JW or some other cult. here you go Revelation 22:18-19

" For I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: If anyone adds to these things, God will add to him the plagues that are written in this book;" "and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part from the Book of Life, from the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book."

 

[GWH]

Thank you G,
I knew that you have a heart of gold.

The beast coming out of the sea is the wicked leader (beast) coming forth from mankind (sea). Thus, in the Book of Revelation any reference to the sea is a reference to the followers of this wicked leader. And example of this is in Chapter Sixteen where the followers of the beast of the sea are condemned (Rev. 16:3).

3And the second angel poured out his vial upon the sea; and it became as the blood of a dead man: and every living soul died in the sea.

Another example is Rev. 10:2 where the angel stands with authority over the earth and the sea meaning that he has authority over the followers of the Rev. 13:1 beast and the followers of the Rev. 13:11 beast.

2And he had in his hand a little book open: and he set his right foot upon the sea, and his left foot on the earth,

I realize these things are hard to see but if you keep and open mind then it may be given to you.

Thus, in Rev. 8:7 both the beast of the sea and the beast of the earth rise (Rev. 13:1 and Rev. 13:11).

7The first angel sounded, and there followed hail (Rev. 13:11) and fire (Rev. 13:1) mingled with blood (mankind) and they (hail and fire) were cast upon the earth (upon the world stage): and the third part of trees (leaders) was burnt up and all green grass (followers) was burnt up (lost their salvation in Christ by following Lucifer's two leaders)

And next in Rev. 8:8-9 we see the actions of the Rev. 13:1 beast.

8And the second angel sounded, and as it were a great mountain (a great nation) burning with fire (burning with the actions of the 13:1 beast from 8:7 above) was cast into the sea (cast into servitude of the 13:1 beast, Rev. 18:21) : and the third part of the sea became blood (the followers of the 13:1 beast); 9And the third part of the creatures (people) which were in the sea (following the 13:1 beast), and had life (had life in Christ), died (died the eternal death Rev. 12:4); and the third part of the ships were destroyed The destruction of this nation includes the destruction of its ships which is its navy.

I realize that reading the metaphors is not easy but some day you may decide to do that.

Oh, I get it:

the second angel poured out his vial Upon the sea
he Set his right foot upon the sea
And the second angel sounded, and as it were A great mountain

Right?

 

[LTL]

YOU added to the text. I just want to post this then I am done with you. I think you are still a troll and from an unbiblical sect maybe JW or some other cult. here you go Revelation 22:18-19

" For I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: If anyone adds to these things, God will add to him the plagues that are written in this book;" "and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part from the Book of Life, from the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book."

C,
I did not add to, but explained the text.

And just for clarification,

Rev. 22:18For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:

Rev. 1:3
Blessed is he that readeth (I am one of those who have been blessed to read the prophecy),
and they that hear the words of this prophecy (you have not heard the words of this prophecy),
and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand (since you have not been blessed to read the prophecy and have not heard the words of this prophecy then you can not keep the things written therein).

Rev. 22:19
And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy (In this verse the Savior addresses any man) ,
God shall take away his part out of the book of life (Thus, if any man takes away takes away from the words of the prophecy then they loose their place in the book of life),
and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book (and from the blessings of the prophecy of this book).

C, you will not enjoy the blessing of the prophecy of the Book of Revelation. And that is not a bad thing. It just means that you will not survive the tribulation. And, if you do not take the mark of the beast, then you have salvation in the kingdom of God. And that is a good thing.

Many of the saints will not survive the tribulation. It is seven years of hell on earth.

 

[LTL]

Oh, I get it:

the second angel poured out his vial Upon the sea
he Set his right foot upon the sea
And the second angel sounded, and as it were A great mountain

Right?

Sorry, the Rev. 10:1 angel is not the second angel of Rev. 8:8-9.

The verses in Rev. 10 pertain to the call of John to the responsibility of the Davidic Throne.

The verses in Rev. 8:7-12 pertain to the judgment upon Babylon and the subsequent judgments upon the followers of the 13:1 beast, the 13:11 beast, and the saints of God who follow the false prophet Wormwood. These three judgments are explained in Rev. 16:3, 16:2, and 16:4-7.

 

[GWH]

Sorry, the Rev. 10:1 angel is not the second angel of Rev. 8:8-9.

The verses in Rev. 10 pertain to the call of John to the responsibility of the Davidic Throne.

The verses in Rev. 8:7-12 pertain to the judgment upon Babylon and the subsequent judgments upon the followers of the 13:1 beast, the 13:11 beast, and the saints of God who follow the false prophet Wormwood. These three judgments are explained in Rev. 16:3, 16:2, and 16:4-7.

Okay, but my question was/is "Why do you think Rev. 8:8-9 refers to the USA in association with Satan standing on the shore of the sea and a beast coming out of the sea?"