Apology - I have said the h. of Israel includes gentiles

[OrphanedRepublican]

I'm also not interested in discussing with you because of your ultra-rude "ZZZZ" emojis that you like to issue. Your attitude is incredibly unchristian. Best of luck to you.

Press the ignore button. Just some advice so you will not see anymore of my ZZZs for you.

 

[2ndTimothyGroup]

But, I could be as blind as the next person.

And yet you bash those who do not think like you. Perplexing. Absolutely perplexing.

 

[2ndTimothyGroup]

Press the ignore button. Just some advice so you will not see anymore of my ZZZs for you.

Ask and you shall receive. Done.

 

[2ndTimothyGroup]

It amazes me how "christians" can be so openly rude and yet feel that they belong to Christ. It's as if "they" don't understand how in total opposition "they" are to what it means to "follow the example of Christ."

 

[Nehemiah6]

He is Jacob's and Esau's grandfather.

Abraham was a Hebrew, descended from Eber. The word "Jew" came into use after the Babylonian captivity, and applied primarily to the tribes of Judah (Yehudi = Jew) and Benjamin.

 

[OrphanedRepublican]

Abraham was a Hebrew, descended from Eber. The word "Jew" came into use after the Babylonian captivity, and applied primarily to the tribes of Judah (Yehudi = Jew) and Benjamin.

Well, I believe your opinion is a majority opinion and by its logic, all were Hebrews since creation because Adam ... you know. All came from Adam and none of Abraham's descendants can be independent of his own ancestry.

So, that would mean that every last one of us is a Hebrew as well. Even me. Let us apply the term globally if we are to be correct.

The scripture that I cited (in my opinion only) teaches where God begins the Hebrew people and the "starting point" (or at least the naming point) of their lineage. But, we can't ignore your logic either, so all come from Adam even if God doesn't start with Adam as a naming point.

Genesis 35:10 And God said unto him, Thy name is Jacob: thy name shall not be called any more Jacob, but Israel shall be thy name: and he called his name Israel.
11 And God said unto him, I am God Almighty: be fruitful and multiply; a nation and a company of nations shall be of thee, and kings shall come out of thy loins;
12 And the land which I gave Abraham and Isaac, to thee I will give it, and to thy seed after thee will I give the land.

Notice the mention of a "company of nations shall be of thee ..." That's kind of a tip off that there are other nations besides "Jews" included in this nation of Israel.

Now, he does mention Abraham and Isaac, so I get it if that is your basis for understanding Abraham to be a Hebrew also, if that's the "starting point" of the "naming of the lineage" that you think is correct. I don't share that opinion because I start at the "naming point" God first reveals the nation of Hebrews to come of Jacob, now named, Israel

I may be mistaken in that understanding or I may be correct. I don't think that my opinion is held by the majority of believers though. I'll say that much.

 

[Nehemiah6]

So, that would mean that every last one of us is a Hebrew as well. Even me. Let us apply the term globally if we are to be correct.

That's not how it works. But here is how it works.

Noah---->Eber---->Abraham---->Isaac---->Jacob---->Judah + Benjamin----> Jews

 

[OrphanedRepublican]

That's not how it works. But here is how it works.

Noah---->Eber---->Abraham---->Isaac---->Jacob---->Judah + Benjamin----> Jews

I'm trying to understand if you are opining under the assumption that Israel is comprised of only Hebrews or Jews. Because I really don't understand your point and I don't see how you can extend "Jewishness" to Abraham. It doesn't make any sense to me.

 

[pottersclay]

• Isa 66:8 Who has heard such a thing? and who has seen after this manner? Has the earth travailed in one day? or has even a nation been born at once, that Sion has travailed, and brought forth her children?
  
  
• 1Pe 2:9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people;

And what is this nation? Isaiah says basically a nation was born of Israel.

1948 in one day Israel became a nation☺

 

[soberxp]

I realized that this is a country that operates under the rules of Satan, not under the word of God.
kingdom of Satan not kingdom of God.
but what is kingdom of God should looks like?

 

[OrphanedRepublican]

I realized that this is a country that operates under the rules of Satan, not under the word of God.
kingdom of Satan not kingdom of God.
but what is kingdom of God should looks like?

Jesus told us that offences must come.

Matthew 18:7 Woe unto the world because of offences! for it must needs be that offences come; but woe to that man by whom the offence cometh! (KJV)

But even the offences in the world are the testimony to the truth and glory of the Lord's words to us. I try to keep that in mind when I'm downcast at the way the world is. I keep thinking if only it would behave better or if all followed Jesus in perfect truth. But even I don't do that. Score one for hypocrisy -- even on me.

Such that it is, it is a glory to our Lord that all He says and does is truth we can rely on forever. Amen.

 

[pumpkinbread1567]

And it's Abraham we are conjoined with through our faith, not Jacob

I understand that, but didn't Jesus come from Jacob?

I understand your point. And I think there is confusion here in the premise of this entire thread. As I have learned through my studies, God makes "final" statements about Israel such that one understands the Abrahamic covenant to also understand Israel is mixed of Jews and non Jews who have one thing in common, they are both branches of the same olive tree, the few natural branches and the wild branches that are grafted in among them. The fulness of that tree is Israel. I believe that Romans Chapter 11 (whole chapter) teaches us about the spiritual construct of Israel comprising of both Jew and gentile.

That is my understanding. Others have different understanding, but there is only one truth and God teaches truth to his faithful. Hopefully that is me and I understand the spiritual truth of this matter. But, I could be as blind as the next person. It's a process, a long wonderful process coming to truth.

I think this one would explain the current confusion surrounding "Israel".

So should we say that, by Israel, prophecies remaining still refer to the Jacobites?

 

[pumpkinbread1567]

This is why Israel is comprised of children of the covenant, which includes non Jews.

"Num 15:16 One law and one ordinance shall be both for you, and for the stranger that sojourneth with you."

I don't know, but it seems to me that God had the vision in mind, where there is neither Jew nor Greek. At least at this time, it seems that strangers sojourning with them were not necessarily of the nation.

 

[Nehemiah6]

I understand that, but didn't Jesus come from Jacob?

Of course he did. People are so thoroughly confused about things which are quite plain. So here is how it was:
Abraham--->Isaac--->Jacob---> Judah--->Jesse--->David---> Solomon & Nathan--->
Joseph & Mary---> Jesus of Nazareth (the Lion of the tribe of Judah). Thus Jesus legitimately became the King/Messiah of Israel, even though He is David's Lord.

At the same time, within the Abrahamic covenant, there are several entities:
1. The twelve tribes of Israel (who will eventually be redeemed and restored)
2. Christ the "seed" of Abraham
3. All believers (Jews and Gentiles) who are justified by grace through faith (the Church).
4. The Ishmaelites, since God even blessed Ishmael and came to the rescue of Hagar and her son. However the majority of Arabs are Muslims, and Islam was set up to oppose the Gospel.

 

[2ndTimothyGroup]

"Num 15:16 One law and one ordinance shall be both for you, and for the stranger that sojourneth with you."

I don't know, but it seems to me that God had the vision in mind, where there is neither Jew nor Greek. At least at this time, it seems that strangers sojourning with them were not necessarily of the nation.

You, my friend . . . are beginning to understand the entire Bible as a whole. Keep asking, seeking, and knocking! One question to ask as a person reads the entire Bible is: "Who is Isreal?" When a person scours the entire Bible, word by word, phrase by phrase, point by point, and asks the above question, a couple of lights will flicker on.

 

[pumpkinbread1567]

1948 in one day Israel became a nation☺

Actually,
Isa 66:7 Before she travailed, she brought forth; before her pain came, she was delivered of a man-child.

I think you should've checked the prophecy first before making that comment. The prophecy of the birth there is referring to Jesus Christ.

1948 event certainly was big, and it seems to have been the end of the extent of the Babylonian Exile. ((430 years - 70 years = 360 years) x 7). 2520 years in Jewish Cal. is equal to 2485 days in Gregorian. So Year 537 B.C.E. + 2485.4 = 1948.4.

 

[pumpkinbread1567]

Of course he did. People are so thoroughly confused about things which are quite plain. So here is how it was:
Abraham--->Isaac--->Jacob---> Judah--->Jesse--->David---> Solomon & Nathan--->
Joseph & Mary---> Jesus of Nazareth (the Lion of the tribe of Judah). Thus Jesus legitimately became the King/Messiah of Israel, even though He is David's Lord.

At the same time, within the Abrahamic covenant, there are several entities:
1. The twelve tribes of Israel (who will eventually be redeemed and restored)
2. Christ the "seed" of Abraham
3. All believers (Jews and Gentiles) who are justified by grace through faith (the Church).
4. The Ishmaelites, since God even blessed Ishmael and came to the rescue of Hagar and her son. However the majority of Arabs are Muslims, and Islam was set up to oppose the Gospel.

Of the course, I did know that Jesus is literally an Israelite. The point of the question was: Since Jesus descended from Jacob, wouldn't all believers reconciled in Christ (seed of Abraham) be of Israel?

Just as a side note, God said to Israel, "I am God Almighty. Be fruitful and multiply; a nation and a company of nations shall be of thee, and kings shall come out of thy loins;"
Even though in Jesus are all believers reconciled, but they're not all called Israel, or should they?
Meanwhile, God said to Abraham, "Shall I hide from Abraham that which I am doing;
seeing that Abraham shall surely become a great and mighty nation, and all the nations of the earth shall be blessed in him?"

It seems to me that he ALREADY DID become a mighty nation which was Israel:

Deu 26:5 "And thou shalt speak and say before the LORD thy God: 'A wandering Aramean was my father, and he went down into Egypt, and sojourned there, few in number; and he became there a nation, great, mighty, and populous."

Deu4:7 "For what great nation is there, that hath God so nigh unto them, as the LORD our God is whensoever we call upon Him?"

2Sa7:23 "And who is like Thy people, like Israel, a nation one in the earth, whom God went to redeem unto Himself for a people, and to make Him a name, and to do for Thy land great things and tremendous, even for you, in driving out from before Thy people, whom Thou didst redeem to Thee out of Egypt, the nations and their gods?"

hmm............... And Jesus came to redeem them again (Luke 24) along with people from Gentiles.

 

[Nehemiah6]

Of the course, I did know that Jesus is literally an Israelite. The point of the question was: Since Jesus descended from Jacob, wouldn't all believers reconciled in Christ (seed of Abraham) be of Israel?

Not at all. All believers are in the Church, and the Church is not Israel, neither is Israel the Church. While Paul calls the Church metaphorically "the Israel of God" in one context, in another context he speaks about "all Israel" being saved (meaning the twelve tribes of Israel) after the Second Coming of Christ.

 

[pumpkinbread1567]

Notice the mention of a "company of nations shall be of thee ..." That's kind of a tip off that there are other nations besides "Jews" included in this nation of Israel.

Yes. So should we say that we are all spiritually "sons of Jacob" through Jesus Christ, but there are multiple nations, yet called as one holy nation? Is this nation:

• "Isa 66:8 Who hath heard such a thing? Who hath seen such things? Is a land born in one day? Is a nation brought forth at once? For as soon as Zion travailed, she brought forth her children. "

Then, the nation spoken of multiple times as "holy nation" different from all other nations that have existed?

 

[pumpkinbread1567]

7 But the house of Israel will not hearken unto thee; for they will not hearken unto me: for all the house of Israel are impudent and hardhearted.

This is one of the things that have confused me. And I saw a difference between "House of Israel" & "Israel", and therefore the topic. If Israel pertains to all nations on Earth IN CHRIST (All-capped for stress), then why should house of Israel pertain only to the Hebrew descendants?