Apostasy, error and disputable matters of doctrine

[1still_waters]

Some people love to throw around words like apostasy.

Apostasy does not equal someone who disagrees with you on a disputable matter found in the Bible.

Apostasy has to do with being completely wrong on the core essentials of the faith and not living out what those core essentials tell us to do.

Be careful tossing words like apostasy around folks.

Error might be a better word. But even that implies you have an absolute grasp on these non-essential, disputable matters within the faith.

I'm not a Pentecostal, but I'm not going to tell someone who believes in initial physical evidence that they've aposticized themselves. It's a disagreement, an honest one, and I might personally believe it's an error.

If someone goes around denying Christ or the Bible's authority, then yeah, you have some apostasy going on.

 

[Baruch]

Some people love to throw around words like apostasy.

Apostasy does not equal someone who disagrees with you on a disputable matter found in the Bible.

Apostasy has to do with being completely wrong on the core essentials of the faith and not living out what those core essentials tell us to do.

Be careful tossing words like apostasy around folks.

Error might be a better word. But even that implies you have an absolute grasp on these non-essential, disputable matters within the faith.

I'm not a Pentecostal, but I'm not going to tell someone who believes in initial physical evidence that they've aposticized themselves. It's a disagreement, an honest one, and I might personally believe it's an error.

If someone goes around denying Christ or the Bible's authority, then yeah, you have some apostasy going on.

FYI... my understanding of apostasy is "standing apart from the truth".

Does this fall under the core essential of our faith?

Ephesians 4:4There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; 5One Lord, one faith, one baptism, 6One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

Is it not completely wrong then to preach "another baptism of the Holy Spirit" that comes with evidence of tongues, especially when it is after the rudiment found in the world in how they get tongues which is gibberish by seeking after "spirits"? Would that not be considered how this prophetic warning is coming true now?

1 Timothy 4:1Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils; 2Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;

If you consider that the hypocrisey of calling for the Holy Spirit to come when He is already in you as promised is applicable in verse 2 in relations to verse 1, we can see the falling away of the faith by denying He is in us by their actions.

2 Corinthians 13:5Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?

Sounds like denying the Lord that bought them to me.

2 Peter 2:1But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in ****able heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction. 2And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of.

What is the way of truth?

John 14: 6Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

John 10:1Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that entereth not by the door into the sheepfold, but climbeth up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber..... 7Then said Jesus unto them again, Verily, verily, I say unto you, I am the door of the sheep.

I believe I am applying the term apostasy correctly. I believe it is more than just an error as I am defending the central core of our beliefs... when others insist that there is more to receive and thus, the way of truth is being evil spoken of by declaring to not rest in Jesus when they came to Him... for they must seek another baptism.

I know you are not Pentecostal, but have you heard this saying on more than one occasions when those that seek after the "Spirit...."I hunger for more of God." ? And yet in according to our central core belief, this promise is in Jesus Christ.

John 6: 35And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.

So all the warnings signs are popping up as the falling away of the faith is occurring.

Do feel free to correct me if I applied this wrong in according to your post, but I do see apostasy abounding in these perilous times we are living in... and it is not the only one.

 

[1still_waters]

FYI... my understanding of apostasy is "standing apart from the truth".

Does this fall under the core essential of our faith?


John 10:1Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that entereth not by the door into the sheepfold, but climbeth up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber.....

We're not talking about debating about the door. We all agree on the door.

You on the other hand want to argue about the paint on the fence and the flowers we put along side it!

Someone is not apostate and deserving of your 'correction' because they disagree with your preference of color scheme on the paint for the fence.

Sorry to go crazy with analogies here folks, but we can't use 'correcting' as license to declare judgment on every area of faith we may disagree with someone on.

 

[Abing]

We're not talking about debating about the door. We all agree on the door.

You on the other hand want to argue about the paint on the fence and the flowers we put along side it!

Someone is not apostate and deserving of your 'correction' because they disagree with your preference of color scheme on the paint for the fence.

Sorry to go crazy with analogies here folks, but we can't use 'correcting' as license to declare judgment on every area of faith we may disagree with someone on.

i totally agree !

 

[carpetmanswife]

We're not talking about debating about the door. We all agree on the door.

You on the other hand want to argue about the paint on the fence and the flowers we put along side it!

Someone is not apostate and deserving of your 'correction' because they disagree with your preference of color scheme on the paint for the fence.

Sorry to go crazy with analogies here folks, but we can't use 'correcting' as license to declare judgment on every area of faith we may disagree with someone on.

thank you stilly! i think im gonna go cry now....

 

[Raeshelle]

We're not talking about debating about the door. We all agree on the door.

You on the other hand want to argue about the paint on the fence and the flowers we put along side it!

Someone is not apostate and deserving of your 'correction' because they disagree with your preference of color scheme on the paint for the fence.

Sorry to go crazy with analogies here folks, but we can't use 'correcting' as license to declare judgment on every area of faith we may disagree with someone on.

AMEN STILL!!! I agree.

 

[NoahsMom]

hmmm, short , sweet and to the point, thats one thing I admire about you muddy..... no long winded speeches, no quotes from 10 different commentaries, straight from your heart, as i imagine God led you to say it, wish there were more folks like you tellin it like it outta be.

 

[roaringkitten]

1still_waters, yes I agree with you 100%.....The core of Christianity is the heart of our faith.....I can disagree with someone about how much money they should give, how short someone's hair should be, etc......Mere disagreement about other issues in the faith apart from the core, is negotiable......I think people need to realize that we all make mistakes(myself included) when interpreting some of the other issues of the faith...We have to be humble to accept correction when the Holy Spirit prompts us......

 

[missy2shoes]

We're not talking about debating about the door. We all agree on the door.

You on the other hand want to argue about the paint on the fence and the flowers we put along side it!

.....

 

[Abing]

thank you stilly! i think im gonna go cry now....

ill cry wth you

 

[1still_waters]

I also think some folks on this board may confuse this board with the local ministry they're involved in.

In your local ministry you're in, there are probably clear guidelines for your ministry, so you have a certain amount of authority to 'correct' and make sure folks adhere to them. Afterall, most ministries establish things like that and those in leadership are at liberty to desire that folks line up with their interpretation on the disputable matters.

The thing is, this message board isn't your local ministry, so your approach needs to be a little different here. There ARE going to be people who don't agree with you on some of the more disputable matters. In this domain you don't have authority to make people adhere to your own private interpretations.

Instead you kind of have to sit like adults at this grown ups table and air your 'views' with a little more diplomacy.

Or just NOT air them at all, which I really try to do, unless it's something involving the more, 'non-disputable' matters of the faith.

If you have a tendency to be snarky like me, your best option might just be to NOT post in this section. Jus sayin.

 

[BLC]

1still_waters,

How do you know that Jesus Christ was the Son of God incarnate and that the death, burial and resurrection of Christ actually took place and for the purpose of putting away the sin of the world. You believe by faith because of a testimony either by man, the testimony of the scripture or by God's testimony through the Holy Spirit. You were not there when Christ was crucified and even if you were, you would have been as the other disciples who did not know why He was offered up. Today, you rely upon the testimony of the scriptures rather than upon the testimony of man. You compare what man says to the scriptures to determine if man is telling the truth about God. Yet all scripture was given by inspiration of God to man as they were moved by the Holy Spirit. So every word of scripture came from God to man as a testimony of God. The spoken word became the written word to be revealed in the heart of man as the living word. How would you believe, if you did not have the written word that was spoken? Someone would have to tell you, but you would have nothing to compare it to. If two or more testified the same thing to you then it would be more convincing, giving you confidence to believe what they say. The point is that you have believed as a result of the spoken word or report given to you as a testimony of the truth, and you believed that report by faith.


If you go to a country or land that does not have God's spoken word in written form, you become the epistle for them to read by the report that you give of the gospel of Christ. Those that will hear what you have to say will be the ones that you can teach the written word as it was spoken from God. As an epistle of God's word, you are in Christ's stead to reveal the life of the living God. The Holy Spirit in you takes the written word that you have hid in your heart and out of your belly flows the living water of God's word. When they drink that water, Jesus said they would never thirst again. If you don't have the right understanding of the written word through the Holy Spirit, then everything you speak will misrepresent the spoken word and living waters will not flow from your belly. You can't expect God to honor any word that is spoken that misrepresents Him. Any testimony that misrepresents the spoken word will produce a misrepresented faith. He will honor the hearts of those that thirst for Him and give them salvation by grace, but He will make sure that someone is raised up that will represent His spoken work to teach them, so that His life is revealed to them and in them. This is the manner that God produces fruit and the way that our God, who is invisible becomes visible in the heart of man.

 

[LynnJ]

Thanks, Stilly, for clarifying this for everyone.

Another thing I'd like to point out is that this is a Christian chat room. It is not a Bible college, so we are not sent here to instruct everyone in the chat room or in the forums. Neither is CC a church in which we are to preach at everyone or a debate forum where we are required to prove our points. It is my understanding that CC is more like a fellowship hall, a place where we come to hang out with each other, talk about the goodness of the Lord, share our experiences, have fun, and only correct when a moderator is not present to do so and when someone is in complete error of the basics like denying the diety of Christ or proclaiming that the Bible is not the Word of God, for example.

I've noticed that the chat room has been really friendly most of the time since I've been a CC member. It's the forums where people tend to get carried away. Before you post, even if someone is in obvious error, please remember what Apostle Paul instructed us to do in 2 Timothy 2:24-26: "And the Lord's servant must not quarrel; instead, he must be kind to everyone, able to teach, not resentful. Those who oppose him he must gently instruct, in the hope that God will grant them repentance leading them to a knowledge of the truth, and that they will come to their senses and escape from the trap of the devil, who has taken them captive to do his will."

Blessings to all of you!
Lynn

 

[BLC]

Lynn J,

You have the liberty to speak freely on this site and you do. Others have the same liberty. This forum in particular is for Bible Discussion, is it not? Do we have the freedom to discuss the scriptures or not? If not then why this forum, if we do, then let people speak freely. Much counsel has been given by many on different forums and threads, some has been given with good wisdom and some not so good. You speak of the cardinal doctrines of the faith to not be compromised as does 1still_waters and I agree. However, every doctrine of the faith is related to all doctrines and to each other (John 19:35).

I hope you understand what Jesus taught concerning leaven, if not, then you should learn everything you can about it. A 'little' leaven can leaven the whole lump, so purge out the leaven (Mt 13:33, 1Cor 5:6, Gal 5:9). Should leaven be ignored and left to corrupt the whole lump of our faith? I do not think so. If we love our brother and discern leaven, do we leave that alone when we are members one of another (Rom 12:5, 1Cor 12:25, Eph 4:25)? Are we not all members together of Jesus Christ's body, flesh and bones (Eph 5:30)? Can God have fellowship and communion with someone who has been leavened in their faith? If our light is turned into darkness, what fellowship does light have with datkness (Luke 11:34,35, 2Cor 6:14).

Those who are entreatable can be gently instructed, but those who are not because of pride, need to be corrected so that others will know the truth. If any compromise with the truth, their love is not for their brother or for the truth but for the justification of their own understanding about the truth. That is what leaven does to the thinking of people who have been infected by it.

 

[1still_waters]

1still_waters,

How do you know that Jesus Christ was the Son of God incarnate and that the death, burial and resurrection of Christ actually took place and for the purpose of putting away the sin of the world. You believe by faith because of a testimony either by man, the testimony of the scripture or by God's testimony through the Holy Spirit. You were not there when Christ was crucified and even if you were, you would have been as the other disciples who did not know why He was offered up. Today, you rely upon the testimony of the scriptures rather than upon the testimony of man. You compare what man says to the scriptures to determine if man is telling the truth about God. Yet all scripture was given by inspiration of God to man as they were moved by the Holy Spirit. So every word of scripture came from God to man as a testimony of God. The spoken word became the written word to be revealed in the heart of man as the living word. How would you believe, if you did not have the written word that was spoken? Someone would have to tell you, but you would have nothing to compare it to. If two or more testified the same thing to you then it would be more convincing, giving you confidence to believe what they say. The point is that you have believed as a result of the spoken word or report given to you as a testimony of the truth, and you believed that report by faith.


If you go to a country or land that does not have God's spoken word in written form, you become the epistle for them to read by the report that you give of the gospel of Christ. Those that will hear what you have to say will be the ones that you can teach the written word as it was spoken from God. As an epistle of God's word, you are in Christ's stead to reveal the life of the living God. The Holy Spirit in you takes the written word that you have hid in your heart and out of your belly flows the living water of God's word. When they drink that water, Jesus said they would never thirst again. If you don't have the right understanding of the written word through the Holy Spirit, then everything you speak will misrepresent the spoken word and living waters will not flow from your belly. You can't expect God to honor any word that is spoken that misrepresents Him. Any testimony that misrepresents the spoken word will produce a misrepresented faith. He will honor the hearts of those that thirst for Him and give them salvation by grace, but He will make sure that someone is raised up that will represent His spoken work to teach them, so that His life is revealed to them and in them. This is the manner that God produces fruit and the way that our God, who is invisible becomes visible in the heart of man.

Yeah again, we agree on the whole Jesus thing. I'd reckon 98% of folks on this board who proclaim themselves as Christians all agree on Jesus.

You're trying to put the need for arguing on the necessity of Jesus on the same level as wrangling over what color to paint the fence (aka the disputable doctrines of the faith.).

It's kind of like people who want pot legalized for every purpose known to man, arguing in favor of medicinal marijuana. We all know they want marijuana for more than medicinal purposes.

I guess what I'm saying is I'm not going toke on the "we need to wrangle over every non-necessity doctrine' pipe you're passin around there buddy. I reckon quite a few people on this board would rather not either.

 

[1still_waters]

Lynn J,

. A 'little' leaven can leaven the whole lump, so purge out the leaven (Mt 13:33, 1Cor 5:6, Gal 5:9). Should leaven be ignored and left to corrupt the whole lump of our faith? I do not think so. If we love our brother and discern leaven, do we leave that alone when we are members one of another (Rom 12:5, 1Cor 12:25, Eph 4:25)? Are we not all members together of Jesus Christ's body, flesh and bones (Eph 5:30)? Can God have fellowship and communion with someone who has been leavened in their faith? If our light is turned into darkness, what fellowship does light have with datkness (Luke 11:34,35, 2Cor 6:14).

But you seem to want to label every disputable issue you don't agree with as 'leaven'. If something is really leaven, then keep it outta the dough. But when you pick too closely, you not only get rid of leaven, you get rid of dough too. Then none of us have any bread to eat..and well.......who wants that!

 

[Abing]

lol BLC, do u even understand the reason why stilly posted this thread. , anyways im sick of people saying this and that (apostasy, heresy and all).. here like posting it without even thinking.,

 

[imoss]

& how do I know the leaven that needs to go is not me ? In reading the posts... the ones that are actually readable... pray, read them & reflect on your own belief. We are to question what we are taught. Most all of the beliefs in here have Biblical basis and the Bible study room should be a place to voice our belief and read and reflect on the beliefs of others to maintain a proper course in our walk as Christians. We should use the word for internal reflection not outward attack. Fellow Christians are not the enemy... doesnt matter if you are 18 or 80 we all can learn from others. Oh & BTW Kitten... tried to add to your rep power with that post but i guess i have to spread some around first...

 

[LynnJ]

Lynn J,


I hope you understand what Jesus taught concerning leaven, if not, then you should learn everything you can about it. A 'little' leaven can leaven the whole lump, so purge out the leaven (Mt 13:33, 1Cor 5:6, Gal 5:9). Should leaven be ignored and left to corrupt the whole lump of our faith? I do not think so. If we love our brother and discern leaven, do we leave that alone when we are members one of another (Rom 12:5, 1Cor 12:25, Eph 4:25)? Are we not all members together of Jesus Christ's body, flesh and bones (Eph 5:30)? Can God have fellowship and communion with someone who has been leavened in their faith? If our light is turned into darkness, what fellowship does light have with datkness (Luke 11:34,35, 2Cor 6:14).

Those who are entreatable can be gently instructed, but those who are not because of pride, need to be corrected so that others will know the truth. If any compromise with the truth, their love is not for their brother or for the truth but for the justification of their own understanding about the truth. That is what leaven does to the thinking of people who have been infected by it.

I do not see in the Scriptures you quoted that it is up to us to expose leaven in someone else. Jesus stated the fact that a little leaven can leaven the whole lump. Apostle Paul instructed each individual to remove their own leaven. And following the portion of Scripture you mentioned in Gal 5:9 comes verse 13, which reminds us to serve one another in love. I do not see where we are to judge our brothers and sisters and *correct* them, other than with love. All Scriptures must be taken in light of other Scriptures. Personally, I find your posts to be on the argumentative side, not containing the loving instruction that is promoted in Scripture.

So that I do not continue the argument any further, I respectfully bow out of this thread.

 

[BLC]

The individual has to know that they have leaven, in order to purge it. The problem is that the leaven is deception and the one that has it, does not realize or know it. God has to bring in the light of conviction to identify the leaven, then the person will be able to purge out the old leaven. That is simple to understand. You can accuse me of judging my brother, attacking others or whatever you would like. It is just not true and 1still_waters has missed the mark in his evaluation as well. It matters not to me and I take no offense. When you can not see or discern leaven, that concerns me and it concerned our LORD very much. If you read what He said about it and studied the tenses, voices and moods of what He said, you would have a greater appreciation and urgency about the subject.