What’s the difference? If you willfully sin, your heart gets really hard, can you be brought back to repentance? Is anyones heart too far for God to restore after being born again?
Apostasy versus walking away?
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hello, in my understanding, apostasy are people who never really believed to start with they abandoned their belief by lack of conviction or faith. For those who believed then walked away then realizing they made a mistake and want to come back, yes i think repentance is possible;
The Parable of the Lost Son in LUKE 15:11-32 (NKJV) comes to mind;
11 Then He ( Jesus) said: “A certain man had two sons. 12 And the younger of them said to his father, ‘Father, give me the portion of goods that falls to me.’ So he divided to them his livelihood. 13 And not many days after, the younger son gathered all together, journeyed to a far country, and there wasted his possessions with [a]prodigal living. 14 But when he had spent all, there arose a severe famine in that land, and he began to be in want. 15 Then he went and joined himself to a citizen of that country, and he sent him into his fields to feed swine. 16 And he would gladly have filled his stomach with the [b]pods that the swine ate, and no one gave him anything.
17 “But when he came to himself, he said, ‘How many of my father’s hired servants have bread enough and to spare, and I perish with hunger! 18 I will arise and go to my father, and will say to him, “Father, I have sinned against heaven and before you, 19 and I am no longer worthy to be called your son. Make me like one of your hired servants.” ’
20 “And he arose and came to his father. But when he was still a great way off, his father saw him and had compassion, and ran and fell on his neck and kissed him. 21 And the son said to him, ‘Father, I have sinned against heaven and in your sight, and am no longer worthy to be called your son.’
22 “But the father said to his servants, [c]‘Bring out the best robe and put it on him, and put a ring on his hand and sandals on his feet. 23 And bring the fatted calf here and kill it, and let us eat and be merry; 24 for this my son was dead and is alive again; he was lost and is found.’ And they began to be merry.
25 “Now his older son was in the field. And as he came and drew near to the house, he heard music and dancing. 26 So he called one of the servants and asked what these things meant. 27 And he said to him, ‘Your brother has come, and because he has received him safe and sound, your father has killed the fatted calf.’
28 “But he was angry and would not go in. Therefore his father came out and pleaded with him. 29 So he answered and said to his father, ‘Lo, these many years I have been serving you; I never transgressed your commandment at any time; and yet you never gave me a young goat, that I might make merry with my friends. 30 But as soon as this son of yours came, who has devoured your livelihood with harlots, you killed the fatted calf for him.’
31 “And he said to him, ‘Son, you are always with me, and all that I have is yours. 32 It was right that we should make merry and be glad, for your brother was dead and is alive again, and was lost and is found.’ ”
Peace,
JF
P
pottersclay
Guest
If you are willfully sinning your heart does get harden to the word of the Lord. And yes there is a time that the Lord will not answer you anymore but laugh at your calamities. Then there is a time where you can be reprobate.
Always remember the Lord is long suffering he cares and loves and is merciful but also just.
Paul says its a fearful thing to be in the hands of the living God.
Repentance after knowing the truth then walking away from it is a hard road to travel. God can save to the uttermost but it also depends on our responce to his calling back.
I'd say, no. Because nothing is impossible for God. However, it's more than that.
We're told God saves us. We have nothing to do with that.
For by grace have ye been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;
I think when that is true, and our salvation and faith are gifts of God, we can never lose what he did to us.
Because when we can't choose faith or save ourselves, it stands to reason we also can't undo what God gave us as his free unchangeable gifts of faith and salvation. They're his gifts. And being God he would know our destiny. Which means he'd know we would stumble, or lose faith.
Yet, if we are one of his, no one can take us from him.
Because while we may decide to stop holding faith, we are sealed in the promise by God. He sealed us knowing everything about us from beginning to end.
Even losing faith? Yes, even that.
If we could revoke God's gift by choice I think it would mean God made a mistake in saving us just to have that thrown back in his face.
God knows all. From beginning to end. He doesn't make mistakes.
Apostacy to me is a person who believes in and teaches a false doctrine about God and His will....
Walking away to me would be more like becoming an Atheist.. No longer believing anything about God..
Good question. I would say that it's rare, but possible. I know someone who may well be in that state. It's important to know that such a person is still born again. They will suffer great loss in God's kingdom. God's blessing comes off in this life also. My former friend has lost pretty much anything and has gone into deception.
Christians also have a choice after they are saved. They can choose to go God's way, refuse self will and learn God's ways, or they can remain independent, relying on their own natural abilities. For former may suffer much but also grow in grace the knowledge of the truth. The latter remain spiritual infants, of little use to God's kingdom and are rewarded appropriately.
No. IF one has truly been "born again," then, even if they turn from Gods grace, He is faithful to receive them back into His fold should they repent and ask forgiveness. (see parable of the Prodigal Son)
There is a difference between Backsliding and Apostasy
my view on this
The backslid person ----is a Born Again person who begins to have doubts about their Faith in Jesus and this causes them to slide backward where they stop acknowledgement of the truth of scripture -------
This person can be brought back from their backsilden state ------Baby Christians are known as Carnal Christians so their minds are still thinking like the world thinks and unless this person has some guidance from a more mature Christian they can easily slip backwards into doubting their Faith in both God and truth -------- Satan can play havoc with their mind and create fear and doubt in their thinking ------
The Disciples are a perfect example ---they had fear and doubted Jesus many times but as they stayed with Him their Faith and Trust grew in Him and His word ------
God tells us to renew our mindset --so we are not conformed to this world's way of thinking -----
Romans 12:2
New International Version
2 Do not conform to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God’s will is—his good, pleasing and perfect will.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Apostasy ---is a person who Claims to be a true Christian then actually turns totally away from their faith ----they have abandoned and renounced their Faith in Christianity and goes with another Religion altogether or reverts back to their old worldly ways -----
But here is the question with this ----was this person a true Christian in the first place as when a person experiences the enlightenment from the Holy Spirit and the goodness of God ---would that person really want to renounce and abandon their Faith in God ------I personally doubt it very much --------
But if one was a true Christian and did abandon and renounce their Faith in God and His word then there is no return for that person as they can't renew their repent again and crucify again for themselves the Son of God ----
my view on this
The backslid person ----is a Born Again person who begins to have doubts about their Faith in Jesus and this causes them to slide backward where they stop acknowledgement of the truth of scripture -------
This person can be brought back from their backsilden state ------Baby Christians are known as Carnal Christians so their minds are still thinking like the world thinks and unless this person has some guidance from a more mature Christian they can easily slip backwards into doubting their Faith in both God and truth -------- Satan can play havoc with their mind and create fear and doubt in their thinking ------
The Disciples are a perfect example ---they had fear and doubted Jesus many times but as they stayed with Him their Faith and Trust grew in Him and His word ------
God tells us to renew our mindset --so we are not conformed to this world's way of thinking -----
Romans 12:2
New International Version
2 Do not conform to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God’s will is—his good, pleasing and perfect will.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Apostasy ---is a person who Claims to be a true Christian then actually turns totally away from their faith ----they have abandoned and renounced their Faith in Christianity and goes with another Religion altogether or reverts back to their old worldly ways -----
But here is the question with this ----was this person a true Christian in the first place as when a person experiences the enlightenment from the Holy Spirit and the goodness of God ---would that person really want to renounce and abandon their Faith in God ------I personally doubt it very much --------
But if one was a true Christian and did abandon and renounce their Faith in God and His word then there is no return for that person as they can't renew their repent again and crucify again for themselves the Son of God ----
willful sin is to continue in a particular sin when God has made you strong enough and able to overcome it it forces a free Will choice because he really does loose the bonds of sin and dominion ot has over us at some point we have to break our Will to sin and let Gods Will expressed in the gospel fill up the voids
He able to change our Will and that then enables us to change our deeds
“For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.”
Philippians 2:13 KJV
that’s his purpose in us he’s working to chi angels our sinful will to what the gospel teaches how it teaches us to be to others when he changes our Will there’s a point we have to actively let go
if we keep trying to carry the sinfulness along with us in Christ it becomes too heavy and drags us away from the thkngs he taught us to do . Sin is a heart issue we have to come to recognize we’ve done evil and let it create Godly sorrow and that leads to repentance to actually accept what the Bible says about sin and death is sobering and empowering for the self preservationist
to willfully sin is to refuse the call of repentance Jesus is constantly making it isnt to sin once or even struggling breaking sinful habits it is to set your Will to preserve sin in your life if we set our Will to eliminate it from life Jesus is able to work mightily in us to accomplish it but f we can’t ever in our mind and heart say yes I need to stop these thkngs it’s sin and it will destroy me ……we’re never going to be able to change
In Hebrews 10.. if we sin willfully, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins.
The sacrifice all through this chapter is mainly of animals.
The Hebrew believer, can't go back to their system of offering of animals if they sin willfully, but can expect fiery discipline from Jesus.
Jesus isn't going to leave them though, that makes a mockery of His forgiveness of sin.
Compare Hebrews 10 with John 3:16..or John 5:24... there is no contradiction in scripture
From my perspective, God will diligently seek out “lost sheep.” I believe lost sheep are apostates. His methods for reclaiming lost sheep may vary and it could involve periods of silence, miracles, or punishment.
Also, remember the parable of the prodigal son. I believe you have your answer there.
It is even more dangerous and subtle than that.
The insidious deception of sin can keep a backslider on the road to hell while they comfort themselves with the idea that they have not yet gone too far as to lose their salvation and they will be repenting and returning soon. Very soon now. Maybe next month. Definitely before the year is over.
God strives against sin, He punishes sin with ever increasing severity but He can never damn the saved one.
God's thoughts are higher than ours and His ways are higher than ours ...
I don't think anyone can get too far gone for Yahweh to restore, but each case is different. It depends on the person and the situation.
There does come a point if a person is reproved and disciplined yet refuses to listen or repent they will be in great danger of being cut off. The idea that a person can renounce their faith, become an enemy of the Lord, maybe even a Satanist or atheist, and actively work against Him and still retain their salvation is as unscriptural as it is ridiculous.
Maybe, maybe not, hmm......
Question: Can a "saved one" live a life of disobedience to God and STILL go to their eternal reward with God?
The only question is will we live lives according to the flesh and the mind of the flesh or we will walk in newness of life and live according to the perfect will of God? these are the options placed before us.
The flesh and the mind of the flesh are ALWAYS contrary to God and always shall be whether we are saved or not.
Unfortunately the most fall back in some measure ... what then? shall we start to compare each one of us with the other and say "ah you have fallen back more than I"?
"I am the cleanest rat"
No let us all seek the Lord together and be renewed and refreshed together.
We are God's garden. whether in winter or in summer. Individually God takes us on when we are at our worst, when we are dead in sin ... rotten to the core. We might backslide from our promise but God never will, He has sworn to save us and He will.
All sin can be forgiven so if a person wilfully sins they can be forgiven if they mean it to turn from the sin.
Hebrews 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins.
If a person sins it can be forgiven but if a person holds on to sin then the sacrifice of Christ cannot wash it away because God will not take away a sin if a person holds on to that sin.
2 Peter 2:20-22 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
21For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.
22But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.
This speaking of people that have received the truth that God does not like sin and does not want us to sin but they went back to holding on to sin which they turned from the truth.
But this can be reversed if they repent of their sins and mean it and move forward not wanting to sin.
Hebrews 6:1-6 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,
2Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.
3And this will we do, if God permit.
4For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
5And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
6If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.
This is speaking of people that have stopped believing that Jesus is Lord and Savior and believed in an alternate reality whether another religion or becoming an atheist and they lost salvation.
These people cannot be saved again because God will not accept them going through the process of being saved.
1 Timothy 4:1-5 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;
2Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;
3Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth.
4For every creature of God is good, and nothing to be refused, if it be received with thanksgiving:
5For it is sanctified by the word of God and prayer.
This is speaking of the new age movement that shall come out at the latter times which is the last days of the last days which they interpret the Bible according to the occult and evolution and people are still evolving to be spiritual and godlike, and Jesus is not Lord and Savior but a good teacher in spiritual enlightenment and evolved to be an ascended master, and believe in no personal God but honor the God of forces or the power of nature as their higher power the evolutionary process, and the New Age Christ is the final teacher.
It says that some shall depart from the faith and embrace the new age movement which they stopped believing that Jesus is Lord and Savior.
But if a person is involved in the new age movement and then believes Jesus is Lord and Savior then they can be saved for they did not depart from the truth.
2 Timothy 3:4-7 Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God;
5Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.
6For of this sort are they which creep into houses, and lead captive silly women laden with sins, led away with divers lusts,
7Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.
These people were not saved but they had a form of godliness but they denied the power thereof which they denied the Holy Spirit to lead them to abstain from sins but they were led of the flesh and were sinning.
They were ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth which they believed their sins did not affect their relationship with God so they sinned and thought they still had salvation.
The Bible says to turn away from these people for they do not represent Christ and His goodness because of their sins.
God will not restore a heart that does not want to be restored. It is possible to harden one's heart to the point that they will never come (or come back) to the Lord.
Hebrews 10:26
“For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,”
We have other verses that expand on this:
Hebrews 6:5 Context
2Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment. 3And this will we do, if God permit. 4For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, 5And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, 6If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame. 7For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God: 8But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.
One does not fall away by accident. As implied in the title, Apostacy = Walking Away.