Are catholics Christian?

[kenneth53]

Are you saying there is no legitimate ministry or fellowship that can occur here? Should we not call out the wolves among us?

I'm all for the wolves being ignored, you can often spot them quite easily, they seem to revel in going around condemning others if they don't have their rigid theologies that have no bearing on salvational belief. Then far more enriched fellowship can take place

 

[secularhermit]

@Watcher "we are discussing about catholics vs Christian."

Excuse me if I´m wrong...

1) I have seen some Catholics are MORE Chritians than ME and many here or out there (not mentioning any, except me, A SINNER).
2) I dislike that "church" consider US a sect (a SECT) not a simple denomination of the many Chrisitsns. They think they are "right" while we are "wrong" and PROUD of getting some truth they willing ignored (to follow wrong doctrines).
3) My concern is: Where does this discusion lead? If not an inferred attack to that denomination (which has some good things) what am I giving them to turn to Jesus, the LIVING JESUS and God, OUR Heavenly Father?

P.S.

THE CHURCH is PEOPLE, not the building not their religious "leaders"...

 

[superdave5221]

You know, I've just spent the past hour chatting to a 'catholic Christian.
He told me that no one can be good enough for God, God will always welcome repentant sinners, it's hypocrisy He can't stand.
He told me there was a time in his life he thought he could be good enough for God, but God stripped him, through an illness of believing he could ever be worthy for Heaven.
He told me he knew Christ died in our place, so sinners such as we could inherit eternal life. And we are made right with God through faith in his son. I'd say that's pretty good 'doctrine' He wasn't preaching, just chatting away normally.
That man gave up a lovely house, and a job with a great salary to live in a community of Christians, and he told me that he's not as comfortable in his own church as when he goes, along with others to witness to people in the local prison. He's seen lives change as prisoners, some with life sentances accept Christ as their Saviour, and to hear them sing praises to God is wonderful
Of course, to some people that man cannot be a Christian, because he wouldn't pass their rigid 'theological/doctrinal' tests.W
hen I was much younger I'd probably have agreed, but I hope I'm a bit older and wiser now(thanks to God)

God looks at his children with a blanket of love, he does not expect perfect theology, he wants the heart, that man I have been speaking of has the heart required, and he does the 'doing'.

Many(and I don't mean you Dave) think if they have what they perceive to be 'perfect theology' they'll be just fine, that's enough, it isn't and it never was
True theology is living the life required, there is no better testimony to it.

You make some good points Kenneth. But you misunderstand me.

Of course God understands our limitations. What He doesn't understand is willing disobedience. We have been told to study and understand doctrine, and to be ready to present it.

1Pe_3:15 but sanctify Christ as Lord in your hearts, always being ready to make a defense to everyone who asks you to give an account for the hope that is in you, yet with gentleness and reverence;


Do not be like the following people described by Paul in his second letter to Timothy:

2Ti 4:1 I solemnly charge you in the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, who is to judge the living and the dead, and by His appearing and His kingdom:
2Ti 4:2 preach the word; be ready in season and out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort, with great patience and instruction.
2Ti 4:3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but wanting to have their ears tickled, they will accumulate for themselves teachers in accordance to their own desires,
2Ti 4:4 and will turn away their ears from the truth and will turn aside to myths.
Instead, be like the following wise tribe who was ready for service to God because they had studied the scriptures, and understood the times.



1Ch_12:32 Of the sons of Issachar, men who understood the times, with knowledge of what Israel should do, their chiefs were two hundred; and all their kinsmen were at their command.

 

[shrimp]

Anyone who asks Jesus for forgiveness for sins and is baptized and seeks after Him, then they are a child of God. And therefore have nothing to worry about as far as going to Heaven is concerned.

 

[secularhermit]

Someone wrote this on CC:

http://christianchat.com/blogs/blackson/1969-catholicism-christianity.html

 

[AgeofKnowledge]

To: Catholic Haters
From: A fellow Protestant

Subject: Your nonsense.

Dear Catholic haters, it's OK to discuss Catholic theology and compare/contrast it with your Protestant theological interpretations; however, the way some of you are going about it is ignorant and disgusting. You start off with sweeping condemnations based on your own misunderstandings and then degenerate from there.

And when someone comes along and starts to correct your misunderstandings, false assertions, and sweeping condemnations: you turn on them with the same unholy vengeance seeking argument rather than a better understanding.

Those of you who know me are well aware that I do not compromise with the type of genuine and sweeping heresy we find in false religious systems and Christian cults. Some of you are probably wondering why I'm "giving them a pass" as one person said to me.

You need to understand that while the Catholic Church has theological, organizational, and historical problems that have developed over time (e.g. "theological drift"), Catholicism was not constructed on heresy and their theological drift is still reformable.

Catholicism did not arise from a heretic in a cave making up a false religious system for personal power and wealth like Mormonism and Islam did.

Catholicism's early roots are not heretical but rather are an extension of the early original church. This is why historians refer to the period of 70 AD thru 312 AD as 'The Age of Catholic Christianity.'

It was in this period that Christianity spread throughout the Roman Empire and probably east to India. Christians then realized they were a part of a rapidly expanding movement. They called it "catholic" to symbolize the universality of Christianity and also to differentiate it from the syncretized and perversions of Jesus's teachings that arose in false religious movements like Gnosticism.

And they called it "catholic," while Christianity was still in its infancy, in spite of the enormous pagan ridicule and Roman persecution they encountered. Now that's vision and that's strength. The 'Age of Catholic Christianity' (e.g. 70AD-312AD) was marked by a universal vision of orthodox beliefs by committed believers within an episcopal church government.

So while it's desirable to point out their current theological, organizational, and historical problems; you have a responsibility to do this accurately and with an eye toward spurring them to reform.

We're not talking about converting Catholics out of a false religious system like Hinduism nor debating an actual cult like Charles Russell's Jehovah Witnesses.

We're talking about Catholics finding salvation (if they haven't already) and encouraging them to work for reform as we all seek a better understanding.

 

[superdave5221]

Anyone who asks Jesus for forgiveness for sins and is baptized and seeks after Him, then they are a child of God. And therefore have nothing to worry about as far as going to Heaven is concerned.

But this is not what Roman Catholics teach. They teach that you need the Church to enter heaven because the knowledge that leads to salvation is not fully contained in the Scriptures, but must be added by man's tradition. In addition, they teach that you can add to Christ's work on the cross with works of your own. But most egregiously, the popes in recent years have sought to diminish the authority of God's word found in the Scriptures, and replace it with the authority of the pope's words.

We have been commanded to test the spirits to see if they are teaching the truth (1 John 4:1). How do we test the spirits? We must have a standard to test things by. And that standard is the Word of God, found in the Scriptures. And yet, the pope would have us to believe that the Scriptures are unreliable and without authority.

Testing by the true standard of God's word, I find the pope's words unreliable and unauthorative.

P.S. I don't hate Catholics. In fact I love them. But I will rightly discern the Word of God, as commanded by Scripture. For do we answer to man, or to God?

 

[AgeofKnowledge]

So superdave, where is the meaningful empirical accurate data in your post to support your manifold assertions about the RCC and scripture other than 1 John 4:1?

If someone says to me, "Roman Catholics teach that pink unicorns with yellow and blue striped horns transport Christians to heaven with fluorescent wings but the Bible teaches the wings are actually white and I know that because I've been commanded to test the spirits to see if they are teaching the truth (1 John 4:1)."

I'm going to say: "prove it."

It's one thing to make an assertion, it's an entirely different thing to prove it. Start doing that and then you really will be superdave.

But I like you're tone. It's an improvement over what we've been seeing in this thread which has been inappropriate given who the target audience is (e.g. Catholics).

 

[kenneth53]

You make some good points Kenneth. But you misunderstand me.

Of course God understands our limitations. What He doesn't understand is willing disobedience. We have been told to study and understand doctrine, and to be ready to present it.

1Pe_3:15 but sanctify Christ as Lord in your hearts, always being ready to make a defense to everyone who asks you to give an account for the hope that is in you, yet with gentleness and reverence;


Do not be like the following people described by Paul in his second letter to Timothy:

2Ti 4:1 I solemnly charge you in the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, who is to judge the living and the dead, and by His appearing and His kingdom:
2Ti 4:2 preach the word; be ready in season and out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort, with great patience and instruction.
2Ti 4:3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but wanting to have their ears tickled, they will accumulate for themselves teachers in accordance to their own desires,
2Ti 4:4 and will turn away their ears from the truth and will turn aside to myths.
Instead, be like the following wise tribe who was ready for service to God because they had studied the scriptures, and understood the times.



1Ch_12:32 Of the sons of Issachar, men who understood the times, with knowledge of what Israel should do, their chiefs were two hundred; and all their kinsmen were at their command.

I think we need to differentiate between what is required salvational belief and what is not. To say no catholic has required salvational belief is a huge error, it's as bad as saying all Protestants have required salvational belief.
Dave
Do you really believe no people in Protestant churches believe they can earn their way to Heaven by being good enough by their own effort and strivings? Come on!

 

[notuptome]

Actually I recall hearing that research into the question of who is saved and who is not in the form of a survey of Evangelical pastors had them declaring that 90% of the people sitting in the pews were not saved but lost souls.
False profession could be a much bigger issue that any of us can imagine.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[watcher2013]

@Watcher "we are discussing about catholics vs Christian."

Excuse me if I´m wrong...

1) I have seen some Catholics are MORE Chritians than ME and many here or out there (not mentioning any, except me, A SINNER).

Christianity cannot be measured by just being good...the level of maturity however shows the fruit of the Spirit...

a Christian as defined/discussed in this thread is
1. a disciples of Christ (acts 11:26)
2.Who repent and turn to the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, who does not dwell not made by hands as preached by Paul, and a Believer of his Son our Lord Jesus (Acts 26)
3. a part of the house of God (1 pet 4:16-17)

Considering this definition, a Christian cannot be more than a Christian to another...but each can differ in the level of maturity...
again being a good person is not a proof of being a Christian... atheist can be good too, Muslims..and other religions...

2) I dislike that "church" consider US a sect (a SECT) not a simple denomination of the many Chrisitsns. They think they are "right" while we are "wrong" and PROUD of getting some truth they willing ignored (to follow wrong doctrines).

again, right and wrong can be established only where we based our TRUTH... If our Basis is the Bible...we can compare the teaching of other religions as to what the Bible teaches... this applies to all religions, Muslims, Budhist, Hindus...Catholicism..etc...
But then again, due to different interpretation, what we have now are different denominations...
Having said that, there are doctrines the are reconcilable in every denominations.. but the fundamental is this...to believe in the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, the God who does not dwell in things made by Hands and His Son Jesus Christ.

Most religions believed in God...the creator of heaven and earth (muslims, hindus, budhist, catholics..etc)
But not all religions believed in the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.

3) My concern is: Where does this discusion lead? If not an inferred attack to that denomination (which has some good things) what am I giving them to turn to Jesus, the LIVING JESUS and God, OUR Heavenly Father?

You will notice, that the discussion are more concentrated on idolatry...
Act 19:26 Moreover yesee and hear, that not alone at Ephesus, but almost throughout all Asia, thisPaul hath persuaded and turned away much people, saying that they be no gods,which are made with hands:

Did Paul attacked the religion in Ephesus and in all Asia? Paul introduce the True God (who does not dwell in things made by hands) (acts 17:23:32) in doing so, implying other gods are false.

Where would this lead, I do not know...

Some may consider this an attacked some who can be persuaded a wake up call.

But, if we can persuade one idolater to repent and to turn to the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob who does not dwell in things made by hands, and to believe in his Son Jesus as paul did, even the angels in heaven will celebrate.

P.S.

THE CHURCH is PEOPLE, not the building not their religious "leaders"...

And you must first be a part of His Church to be called his people... and being a Christian is the first step, referring to the Bible of course.

 

[watcher2013]

To: Catholic Haters
From: A fellow Protestant

Subject: Your nonsense.

Dear Catholic haters, it's OK to discuss Catholic theology and compare/contrast it with your Protestant theological interpretations; however, the way some of you are going about it is ignorant and disgusting. You start off with sweeping condemnations based on your own misunderstandings and then degenerate from there.

And when someone comes along and starts to correct your misunderstandings, false assertions, and sweeping condemnations: you turn on them with the same unholy vengeance seeking argument rather than a better understanding.

Those of you who know me are well aware that I do not compromise with the type of genuine and sweeping heresy we find in false religious systems and Christian cults. Some of you are probably wondering why I'm "giving them a pass" as one person said to me.

You need to understand that while the Catholic Church has theological, organizational, and historical problems that have developed over time (e.g. "theological drift"), Catholicism was not constructed on heresy and their theological drift is still reformable.

Catholicism did not arise from a heretic in a cave making up a false religious system for personal power and wealth like Mormonism and Islam did.

Catholicism's early roots are not heretical but rather are an extension of the early original church. This is why historians refer to the period of 70 AD thru 312 AD as 'The Age of Catholic Christianity.'

It was in this period that Christianity spread throughout the Roman Empire and probably east to India. Christians then realized they were a part of a rapidly expanding movement. They called it "catholic" to symbolize the universality of Christianity and also to differentiate it from the syncretized and perversions of Jesus's teachings that arose in false religious movements like Gnosticism.

And they called it "catholic," while Christianity was still in its infancy, in spite of the enormous pagan ridicule and Roman persecution they encountered. Now that's vision and that's strength. The 'Age of Catholic Christianity' (e.g. 70AD-312AD) was marked by a universal vision of orthodox beliefs by committed believers within an episcopal church government.

So while it's desirable to point out their current theological, organizational, and historical problems; you have a responsibility to do this accurately and with an eye toward spurring them to reform.

We're not talking about converting Catholics out of a false religious system like Hinduism nor debating an actual cult like Charles Russell's Jehovah Witnesses.

We're talking about Catholics finding salvation (if they haven't already) and encouraging them to work for reform as we all seek a better understanding.

I hope that you are not also referring to me, as you can easily quote me , instead of addressing "catholic haters"...

I did say in this thread that I am not against any catholics... I am against idolatry... (so probably this is not for me)

But if you are also referring to me;
I hope The question that I submit as to where you based your truth to conclude that a statement is false assertion...( is not the reason of this "back stabbing" statement) I hope you didn't consider this an attacked but rather a clarification of your judgement)

We have discussed that the catechism teaches the sharing of the titles to Mary in contrasts to the bible that those titles belong to Christ. (the differences in the teaching about resurrection and special devotion to Mary)

Did Paul attacked the people of Athenians and the ephesians??? No, Paul introduce the True God...

Salvation to any person will come, If they will realise their idolatry and be introduce to the True God...But if they will continue with their idolatry...how can they know the True God.

Be bless.

 

[AgeofKnowledge]

He made material errors in his blog post which he used as the basis for his assertion that the Catholic Church is not Christian. Scroll back and you'll see that I began correcting those errors and adding relevant factual information.

If you're going to excommunicate the entire Catholic Church (both East and West) from the body of Christ and teach that as a fact as real as the earth orbiting the sun, then you might want to not do that from a myopic blog post riddled with error... lolol.

Someone with a bit of intelligence and a right heart would begin by stating that if the Scriptures are simultaneously God’s revelation and the product of human hands, the right place to begin is to inquire for an account of the relation between the two.

They would introduce the term ‘inspiration’ and seek to define it properly from both views providing adequate documentation in the process. In Protestant circles, we like to say that it is the supernatural work of God’s Holy Spirit upon the human authors of Scripture such that what they wrote was precisely what God intended them to write in order to communicate his truth in the original transcript.

We could invoke 2 Tim. 3:16 toward this end and a scholarly commentary such as The New Bible Dictionary noting essential ideas such as Scripture has the same character as the prophets’ sermons had when preached and when written (cf. 2 Pet. 1:19–21, on the divine origin of every ‘prophecy of the scripture’; see also Je. 36; Is. 8:16–20). That is to say, Scripture is not only man’s word, the fruit of human thought, premeditation and art, but also, and equally, God’s word, spoken through man’s lips or written with man’s pen. In other words, Scripture has a double authorship, and man is only the secondary author; the primary author, through whose initiative, prompting and enlightenment, and under whose superintendence, each human writer did his work, is God the Holy Spirit.

We might then discuss how traditional Roman Catholics (if dealing with the West and not the East), while holding to the inspiration and authority of the Bible, deny that the Bible is sufficient as a rule of faith and practice asserting that before the written word came the oral tradition which continues along side the written word in the magisterial office of the Roman Church and how this has materially affected RCC doctrine in unbiblical ways that oppose the written word and engage them as to what that means from a properly interpreted (not to be confused with someone's imaginative or fanatical erroneous thinking) and purely Biblical perspective (allowing both sets of scripture [Protestant and RCC] to be placed on the table and compared and contrasted.

Not just write a blog post stating that Catholics worship statues, Mary, and the Saints because they have a picture that shows them doing it and believe that's what they do and therefore they are all idol worshippers like ancient pagans and the Bible says they don't get to be part of the body of Christ *snort*.

^ LOL! That false assertion is INCORRECT, IGNORANT, and the person making it is acting in an unbiblical and ungodly manner.

I mean seriously? Really? Is that where we're at. Making blog posts like that on CC and dropping them in threads like this one?

And then people wonder why an educated Protestant steps in and says... hold up.

Someone wrote this on CC:

http://christianchat.com/blogs/blackson/1969-catholicism-christianity.html

 

[AgeofKnowledge]

A bit yes but you're not the worst offender if that's any consolation. Your biggest problem is that you falsely accuse the Catholic Church of teaching and practicing idolatry.

Idolatry, the English transliteration of the Greek word eidōlolatria (literally, "the worship of eidōla, ‘idols, images’" in sense of service [worship] of an image [an idol]), refers to a common pagan religious phenomenon of Paul’s day in which images or material symbols of pagan deities and/or [occult] supernatural powers were the objects of worship along with the pagan gods they represented.

Paul’s critique and guidance regarding questions related to idols and idolatry was rooted in a Christological revision of his inherited Jewish monotheism which thoroughly rejected that. Paul devotes his attention to the topic of idolatry using the vocabulary of the LXX, e.g., eidōlothyton ("food sacrificed to idols," 1 Cor 8:1, 4, 7, 10; 10:19; cf. also hierothytos, "meat offered in sacrifice," 1 Cor 10:28), eidōla ("idols," 1 Cor 12:2) and eidōleion ("the temple of an idol," 1 Cor 8:10) and vocabulary not found in the LXX, such as eidōlolatria ("idolatry," 1 Cor 10:14) and eidōlolatrēs ("idolater," 1 Cor 10:7) all speaking of images or material symbols of pagan deities and/or [occult] supernatural powers that were the objects of worship and the pagan gods they represented.

Where did you ever get the idea that Catholics are taught to worship material symbols of pagan deities, pagan deities, or [occult] supernatural powers and why do you continue to make this false assertion after it has been explained to you that's not what they are teaching and doing?

http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/71365-catholics-christian-13.html#post1156450

I hope that you are not also referring to me, as you can easily quote me , instead of addressing "catholic haters"...

 

[letti]

Well,my dear brothers and sisters it was not my intention to fire up a nasty debate.I have no right to judge anybody in the body of christ.I was speaking from first hand knowledge of my past with the catholic faith ,it was not right for me.I know a good many catholics ,I love dearly some in my own family.Maybe I just judged my own expierence with the catholic faith as they must all worship the same.We had statues all over the church I attended,and people would bow and pray to them.My apologies I have never visited all catholic churches and gotten to see how they all differ.That is the reason I left the Idols.

 

[letti]

With all the tension ,this has created it kind of makes me wish I remained silent on this whole topic.

 

[watcher2013]

A bit yes but you're not the worst offender if that's any consolation. Your biggest problem is that you falsely accuse the Catholic Church of teaching and practicing idolatry.

Idolatry, the English transliteration of the Greek word eidōlolatria (literally, "the worship of eidōla, ‘idols, images’" in sense of service [worship] of an image [an idol]), refers to a common pagan religious phenomenon of Paul’s day in which images or material symbols of pagan deities and/or [occult] supernatural powers were the objects of worship along with the pagan gods they represented.

Paul’s critique and guidance regarding questions related to idols and idolatry was rooted in a Christological revision of his inherited Jewish monotheism which thoroughly rejected that. Paul devotes his attention to the topic of idolatry using the vocabulary of the LXX, e.g., eidōlothyton ("food sacrificed to idols," 1 Cor 8:1, 4, 7, 10; 10:19; cf. also hierothytos, "meat offered in sacrifice," 1 Cor 10:28), eidōla ("idols," 1 Cor 12:2) and eidōleion ("the temple of an idol," 1 Cor 8:10) and vocabulary not found in the LXX, such as eidōlolatria ("idolatry," 1 Cor 10:14) and eidōlolatrēs ("idolater," 1 Cor 10:7) all speaking of images or material symbols of pagan deities and/or [occult] supernatural powers that were the objects of worship and the pagan gods they represented.

Where did you ever get the idea that Catholics are taught to worship material symbols of pagan deities, pagan deities, or [occult] supernatural powers and why do you continue to make this false assertion after it has been explained to you that's not what they are teaching and doing?

http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/71365-catholics-christian-13.html#post1156450

You have just labeled me as "Catholic Killers" applying of course 1john 3:15.
When and where do you think, pagan practice originate?
The calf in the wilderness was that of pagan practice?
Idolatry comes in many forms, images are the obvious.

Idolatry in catholic: (hidden)
Was praying a form of worship?
Praying to Mary,
was mary dead or already resurrected.
If dead much worst, praying to dead people.
Mary's titles as same of that of Christ.
Praying to same as God.
Then the Rosary, as a special devotion to her.
Praying is not a form of worship...does it matter. They are praying to dead.

If this is not idolatry, what is it?

I did post, that I am not against any catholic, and yet you labeled me as one who hates catholics. I DID NOT EXPECT THAT FROM A BROTHER., that is if you consider me one.

 

[AgeofKnowledge]

No, I never called you a 'Catholic Killers' nor did I reference 1 john 3:15. You are inventing that in your head just like you somehow invented the false view that Catholics are engaging in pagan idolatry. I have no idea why you chose to do that.

Now your use of Exodus 32 is ridiculous as some kind of proof that Catholics are engaging in pagan idol worship.

"When the people saw that Moses was so long in coming down from the mountain, they gathered around Aaron and said, Come, make us gods who will go before us. As for this fellow Moses who brought us up out of Egypt, we don't know what has happened to him." -Exodus 32:1

The reason why the NIV uses the word gods is because that is the translation of the Hebrew word in this passage which is האלהים

The Hebrew text is very clear that the ancient Israelites are not referring to the creation of an image to worship el shad-di' with but rather being disappointed at the long absence of Moses seeking to revert back to the pagan idolatry they had practiced in Egypt.

Now yes they pray to Mary and the Saints to intercede on their behalf with God and I agree with you this is not Biblical; however, it is not eidōlolatria.

You are confusing honoring and veneration with idolatry. The classical distinction in the Catholic Church is worship paid to God (latreia), honor paid to Mary and the saints (douleia), and veneration given to created objects (proskynesis) with veneration being really theological in its significance.

That said, in the East they did trend toward arguing that an icon was a true representation of the hypostasis (i.e. person) of its subject but that it had a different nature (ousia) or substance [to avoid idolatry]. An icon of Christ was thus able to bring the believer into direct contact with his person but it was not an idol or eidōlolatria. This became the teaching of Eastern Orthodoxy after 842 but that theology never caught on in the Western Roman Catholic Church.

And note that in the East, Orthodox Catholic Churches refuse to allow statuary in worship on the grounds doing so is idolatrous.

Remember, I'm an evangelical Christian and I argue against all of these Catholic practices including those surrounding Mary (which most Protestants do not realize does have roots as far back as the first and second centuries), the Saints, and icons of any form.

But I'm not leveling a false charge of eidōlolatria against them for doing so either.

You have just labeled me as "Catholic Killers" applying of course 1john 3:15.
When and where do you think, pagan practice originate?
The calf in the wilderness was that of pagan practice?
Idolatry comes in many forms, images are the obvious.

Idolatry in catholic: (hidden)
Was praying a form of worship?
Praying to Mary,
was mary dead or already resurrected.
If dead much worst, praying to dead people.
Mary's titles as same of that of Christ.
Praying to same as God.
Then the Rosary, as a special devotion to her.
Praying is not a form of worship...does it matter. They are praying to dead.

If this is not idolatry, what is it?

I did post, that I am not against any catholic, and yet you labeled me as one who hates catholics. I DID NOT EXPECT THAT FROM A BROTHER., that is if you consider me one.

 

[AgeofKnowledge]

I'm really only asking that you don't throw a lot of mud at the wall hoping some of it will stick while excommunicating the entire Catholic Church and its 1.2 billion members from the body of Christ because that's egregiously insane but rather do some research and make accurate well thought out statements.

Check the Catholic Encyclopedia and please do bring information from it to me if you find something that you honestly believe, after consideration, shows the opposite of what I'm asserting.

CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Veneration of Images

"Note: The 'Catechism of Christian Doctrine' used in England by command of the Catholic bishops. In four points, this book sums up the whole Catholic position exactly:

• "It is forbidden to give divine honour or worship to the angels and saints for this belongs to God alone."

• "We should pay to the angels and saints an inferior honour or worship, for this is due to them as the servants and special friends of God."

• "We should give to relics, crucifixes and holy pictures a relative honour, as they relate to Christ and his saints and are memorials of them."

• "We do not pray to relics or images, for they can neither see nor hear nor help us."

 

[superdave5221]

So superdave, where is the meaningful empirical accurate data in your post to support your manifold assertions about the RCC and scripture other than 1 John 4:1?

If someone says to me, "Roman Catholics teach that pink unicorns with yellow and blue striped horns transport Christians to heaven with fluorescent wings but the Bible teaches the wings are actually white and I know that because I've been commanded to test the spirits to see if they are teaching the truth (1 John 4:1)."

I'm going to say: "prove it."

It's one thing to make an assertion, it's an entirely different thing to prove it. Start doing that and then you really will be superdave.

But I like you're tone. It's an improvement over what we've been seeing in this thread which has been inappropriate given who the target audience is (e.g. Catholics).

1. "The Second Vatican Council's Decree on Ecumenism explains: "For it is through Christ's Catholic Church alone, which is the universal help toward salvation, that the fullness of the means of salvation can be obtained. It was to the apostolic college alone, of which Peter is the head, that we believe that our Lord entrusted all the blessings of the New Covenant, in order to establish on earth the one Body of Christ into which all those should be fully incorporated who belong in any way to the People of God." (CCC 816).
2. 
   Please note, CCC stands for Catechism of the Catholic Church
   
   
3. Become a god: CCC 460, "For the Son of God became man so that we might become God." "The only-begotten Son of God, wanting to make us sharers in his divinity, assumed our nature, so that he, made man, might make men gods.

1. Merit Grace unto Eternal Life: CCC 2010, "...Moved by the Holy Spirit and by charity, we can then merit for ourselves and for others the graces needed for our sanctification, for the increase of grace and charity, and for the attainment of eternal life."

1. “We confess that the Pope has power of changing Scripture and of adding to it, and taking from it, according to his will.” — Roman Catholic Confessions for Protestants Oath, Article XI, (Confessio Romano-Catholica in Hungaria Evangelicis publice praescripta te proposita, editi a Streitwolf), as recorded in Congressional Record of the U.S.A., House Bill 1523, Contested election case of Eugene C. Bonniwell, against Thos. S. Butler, Feb. 15, 1913.
   
   
   
   
   

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