Are Christians obligated to tithe?

[Jason0047]

Remember 7,000 churches a year close down due to lack of Christians obeying the Lord. A small percentage of the people affected have been tithers, endeavoring to keep a congregation together.

So what stops them from meeting in someone's house or in small groups? You have to remember, that the church thrived even under intense persection. Where is it stated in God's Word that we actually need a church building with a fancy sound system and cool looking stage lights?

 

[Jason0047]

Oh yes, you're absolutely right and I didn't mean to give the impression I thought all the blessings of giving would be in this life. Frankly I'd just as soon bank them for the other side, where they will do the most good



You know, it's easy to give money. Write the check and be done with it. Yeah, giving a bag of groceries to the homeless guy down the street, giving your time to a ministry or charity, visiting the incarcerated of all types - those are the hard things to give, and the gifts I believe God honors most. Money belongs to Caesar. The heart belongs to God.

Still, I don't think it's a bad thought, that perhaps things are tight because we're not giving enough. May or may not be the case but I wouldn't want to exclude the possibility.

God has chosen the poor of this world and not the rich. Granted, I am not telling you to be a bum on the streets. But I do not think your financial situation is linked to your giving. Many rich people who are very greedy and who do not give are very wealthy; And then there are people who I know who are very poor and give when they do not have it all their lives and their financial situation never changes. In fact, I was just talking to my fiance in Brazil today and she told me about a guy in a particular church who had lost his house because he was told to tithe when he didn't have it. Not very smart. Did the Pastor of the church lose his house during all this, too? I doubt it.

 

[RickyZ]

You're not wrong - you're just, well, too polarized to see the whole picture. And as such you exclude yourself from some possibilities. Sure some fool in Brazil got taken. But just as real, some faithful tithers have been blessed.

 

[Jason0047]

You're not wrong - you're just, well, too polarized to see the whole picture. And as such you exclude yourself from some possibilities. Sure some fool in Brazil got taken. But just as real, some faithful tithers have been blessed.

First, the man from Brazil is not a fool. He is a real human being with feelings and a life who needs love by us. So please talk in a respectful way. It would lend me to think you are truly a lover of God who cares about people. Second, this man is an example of what can happen when someone who places too much trust in a flawed religious practice. Third, your agument that some have been blessed is not really Scriptural. Like I said, Jesus and the apostles in the New Testament are our example. They did not practice such a concept. Providing money because you have to is not love but it is forced love. It is do this or else. It is not truly in the concept of what giving is truly about.

 

[Test_F_i_2_Luv]

What I think is happening is many Christians feel they are exempt from the tithe based on Paul's request of Christians living around Corinth, amid general prosperity among mostly Gentiles to take up a special offering for the great needs of saints in Jerusalem who were heavily persecuted. Paul picked on the wealthiest population of Christians for that one-time charity, the believers setting by in store until Paul got and distributed it. None of that had to do with keeping up Church infrastructure, but to feed the poor and hungry that were being robbed by the Jews, even their pastor James, brother of Jesus, assassinated by sword.

Malachi took the issue of tithing to a new level, writing things Moses didn't declare, giving a promise to tithers. There were two very distinct ministries in the Old Testament, that of Moses and the commandments, and that of the prophets who warned of rebellion against God, but bridging a huge gap between those times and ours.

It is a "strawman argument" to oppose tithing because it was commanded in the law. It existed before the law, and after, by way of the prophets and Jesus and the apostles.

As a result of confusing the ministry of the prophets, and taking NT verses out of context some folks today feel free to make up their own doctrines concerning where their money goes in the Kingdom of Heaven. I persist about this because it is very evident that while a tiny percent of Americans tithe, our economy remains on very shaky ground regardless of all the "solutions". As long as America robs God, there will be no national blessing on "gifts" that don't pay the Kingdom bills. The money doesn't float down from Heaven like manna did every morning. It isn't the fruit of a "money tree".

If we were required to tithe, Paul would have surely mentioned it in 2 Cor 9, to which you allude. Why would he leave it out when he's giving one of his longest and most detailed discussions on money?

In all your talk about tithing, which of the O.T. tithes are you referring to? What about the others?

 

[Word_Swordsman]

If we were required to tithe, Paul would have surely mentioned it in 2 Cor 9, to which you allude. Why would he leave it out when he's giving one of his longest and most detailed discussions on money?

In all your talk about tithing, which of the O.T. tithes are you referring to? What about the others?

God is not pleased when faith is not present. I learned about the tithe that was before Moses commanded it. Moses spoke it because God commanded the tribe of Levi to forsake property ownership so they could serve the other tribes, so deserved a living from those served. The Levites were commanded to support the priests with part of the tithes and offering they collected. There's nothing at all wrong about that system.

I learned from Malachi there was all along a blessing for tithers, which Abraham received long before any Levite existed. What he did was a matter of faith, faith being what pleased God.

I learned in Hebrews 7 how it is that Jesus is High Priest of the eternal order, superior to the mortal Levites who though they all died, received tithes. I learn that Jesus is still ministering from Heaven, still receiving tithes. Jesus receives tithes from tithers, and tithers are assured the Lord will not let them fail. We all probably know that the top 1% of wealthy couldn't exercise faith by tithing (by definition 10% of one's increase). But for the rest of us, tithing the top 10% of whatever we were blessed with since last tithing likely requires a step of faith. Blessings on the tithe follow the principle of pleasing God by faith and obedience through accepting that our High Priest Jesus collects our tithes. His eternal priesthood has collected the tithes all along, distributing that resourvce among people since any tithe was tithed however long ago.

How can God be pleased over someone that could easily without a shred of faith give as he is able $1,000 a week to a ministry that blesses him, then "purposes in his heart" to put on his happy cheery face, cheerfully dropping $10 in the plate instead? Will God account cheerfulness to such "cheery giving"? That giver would be better to not give anything, especially if people around are under an impression the rich Christian is giving significantly, doing a fair share of the amount needed to continue having a place for all to assemble. Annanius and Sapphira come to mind. It's not a good idea to roll a dollar bill up like a pencil so when it hits the plate it is heard.

Lastly, take a look at how Jesus dealt with being generous. The chapter will bless the reader, but let's focus on this part....Luke 6:35 (KJV)
[SUP]35 [/SUP] But love ye your enemies, and do good, and lend, hoping for nothing again; and your reward shall be great, and ye shall be the children of the Highest: for he is kind unto the unthankful and to the evil.

While loving even someone you know doesn't mean well for you, if he asks to borrow, eye to eye without flinching, lend it. But Jesus says to go beyond that. Going above the law to a higher plane, Jesus said not to expect return of what is loaned or given. The law even prohibited brother charging brother interest (usury) on a loan. If the borrower returns it, fine, you can receive it back. Jesus exceeded the law by having us totally avoid putting any burden or oppression on someone in need. Don't say "Be sure to bring it back (or pay me back) soon."

What comes out of that? and your reward shall be great, and ye shall be the children of the Highest: for he is kind unto the unthankful and to the evil.

When we give that way we are promised Luke 6:38 (KJV)
[SUP]38 [/SUP] Give, and it shall be given unto you; good measure, pressed down, and shaken together, and running over, shall men give into your bosom. For with the same measure that ye mete withal it shall be measured to you again.

Lending to the poor is lending to God. Why not always lend such that you must exercise faith, not holding back what you can still do without? It isn't required to do any of that, but for those that do there are promises.

No, tithing isn't commanded like it was for the Jews. Christian tithing has promise far higher than just putting meat on the preacher's table. God promised to open the windows of Heaven, pouring out blessings. He doesn't promise that outside of tithing. He's looking for some folks that can honestly with great true cheerfulness give signed blank checks to their church. But he would be a lot happier to see the majority simply enter into his heavenly economy by taking part in it his way.

There is is, laid out God's way. Let God get into your bank account through real faith in his promises. Your only other option to being able to actually help anyone other than maybe yourself and yours is to serve the kosmos (mammon), taking crumbs from the world's table.

 

[Word_Swordsman]

If we were required to tithe, Paul would have surely mentioned it in 2 Cor 9, to which you allude. Why would he leave it out when he's giving one of his longest and most detailed discussions on money?

In all your talk about tithing, which of the O.T. tithes are you referring to? What about the others?

In conclusion to my answer, Paul was the one in Heb 7 comparing Old Covenant Priesthood and the New Covenant Priesthood concerning tithing and other matters. Paul is also the apostle that made much in his epistles about how Christians are not under the law. Yet, Jesus receives tithes like Melchisedec did, whose priesthood was not of the mortal Aaronic, but of the same eternal one Jesus is of.

So the various Law tithe rules don't apply to us. We are free to tithe a straight tithe to whatever storehouse of ministry that serves us. That's typically your local assembly. It's worked fine for many centuries, supporting ministers, workmen deserving of their hire. 1 Timothy 5:17-18 (KJV)
[SUP]17 [/SUP] Let the elders that rule well be counted worthy of double honour, especially they who labour in the word and doctrine.
[SUP]18 [/SUP] For the scripture saith, Thou shalt not muzzle the ox that treadeth out the corn. And, The labourer is worthy of his reward.

 

[Jon4TheCross]

One of the biggest tools of the catholic church corrupting the first works and first love of the church was supporting tithe again after Christ and the example of His disciples clearly showed that the high priesthoid which has access to the holiest of all only recieves tithe. Christians tithing to christians is confusion and an continuing example of the identity crisis crippling the so-called "church". If you want inheritance in the land...have inheritance in the land...and keep 90%...then you are part of the saved world...and you need to go through thr Christians for access to God. This is the reason why so many mock the pathetic powerlessness of "christians". The definition of christian is hypocrisy by the majority in my opinion. So powerless infact...that most do not even understand what God approved love and unity is in the first place. Most of the church goers speak withatongue confessing the abundance of their heart to be "my own family, my own children, etc."

The church that we (the church) do not go to does recieve tithe from those who are not the church (the saved world), and they fo go to the church. So if you go to church...then you are not the church...etc.

So many are soooo very confused.

Our inheritance is God alone, and everything we are stewards of (including "our children" as so many speak according to the flesh). If we are not our own...then all which is good that comes out from God through us is His as well.

I hope this identity crisis will be resolved soon, even if many must suffer in order that thry realize where their true identity is.

Where your treasure is....there will be your heart also.

 

[Word_Swordsman]

So what stops them from meeting in someone's house or in small groups? You have to remember, that the church thrived even under intense persection. Where is it stated in God's Word that we actually need a church building with a fancy sound system and cool looking stage lights?

Of course none of that would be in the Bible, nobody even knowing about electric lights or sound amplifiers. You already know why there were no church buildings in the early Church, Christians and Jews both having their property taken away anywhere in the Roman Empire. I normally don't respond to such ridiculous statements as that, but the Lord wants a response.

Let's say you street witness downtown NYC. 200 people at an intersection stop to listen, become believers. Where do they go next? A coffee shop? I doubt there's a single one that would allow a church service to take over. I doubt one restaurant would allow a home group meeting. So one has a penthouse 35 floors up that could handle 10 seated. You have 190 people left.

But if you have a facility nearby you might attract a few of them there. But, most of them commute by bus then train to many home areas. How will you guide them? How will they learn how to pick a Bible believing assembly? How many of those sponsor home groups?

Let's move on to an established church in just one of those outlying towns they live in. A major problem I have witnessed many times, and see the polls and studies, is the logistics of having a team of home group leaders that can effectively provide a quality Bible study, each one found to be Bible-centered, not one being the blind leading the blind. Bible study leaders are rare.

Another factor is there's a problem getting people to go to a private home for a meeting, few having enough space, furniture, legal parking areas, and many other logistical factors that make significant numbers and sizes of home groups impractical. Our church of 750 has only developed 4 home groups, each averaging 8 people. That's all the space we have that's been offered. A result of that project has been to create "cliques". The home group folks tend to sit together, go to Sunday lunch together, singles dating each other.

There isn't a scripture that allows a church to command members to make their homes available. The concept of home groups is working only for the most active Christians who can disciple a few people at a time. Christians and "seekers" do respond well to meeting in some public facility that would allow them to assemble in rain, snow, heat, cold, and not get a parking ticket. Gone are the days when a Smith Wigglesworth could preach with booming voice in a pasture. We have no preachers like that today that I know of, so the amplified sound systems are needed.

I just deleted a large condensed history of development of American church assemblies, what I worked on for many hours to answer your comment. It included my wife's recollection of the circuit preacher that made rounds in the 1950's-1960's, coming to her tiny rural church once every 3 weeks. Her family hosted the preacher, feeding him, put him in the "big" standard-size bed in her parent's little home, washed and ironed his laundry, washed his '55 Dodge wagon (her Daddy a mechanic who kept it running), tied his bow ties perfectly, made chicken dumplin's for every time he sat to Sunday lunch, then stocked him up for the next journey, the man that married us in 1967. She worked the work of a good Levite, though a So. Baptist girl. The post was too big, and it is still probably too big for anyone to read, but at least I've answered with what ought to be sufficient.

Please regain the respect for others you had when I first came here.

 

[Word_Swordsman]

God has chosen the poor of this world and not the rich. Granted, I am not telling you to be a bum on the streets. But I do not think your financial situation is linked to your giving. Many rich people who are very greedy and who do not give are very wealthy; And then there are people who I know who are very poor and give when they do not have it all their lives and their financial situation never changes.

James 2:5 (KJV) [SUP]5 [/SUP] Hearken, my beloved brethren, Hath not God chosen the poor of this world rich in faith, and heirs of the kingdom which he hath promised to them that love him?

He didn't choose poor people in general. God has chosen people, rich or poor, who are rich in faith, have met the conditions for being co-heirs with Christ, loving the Lord with all their being. Anyone rich or poor can do that if they believe and follow Jesus.

While many wealthy people appear to be greedy and don't give, I know many who are very generous, hiring people to help them find good causes for their money. Some have so much they can't keep up with it, so it takes a corporation of CPAs to trck and deal with it all. Once you meet a Christian like that you realize you really can't know enough about anyone to know their heart and know whether they are greedy and selfish, or big givers, as they tend not to draw attention to themselves, else they can't breathe from people pressing in.

At the same time I know of far more poor people who are extremely greedy and selfish, not willing to give anyone anything, including their own spouse and children. I tried to talk to a 24 year old man in jail for duct taping his little son's hands behind his back for "stealing" some of his chocolate candy he had hidden in a cabinet up high. The child nearly lost a finger over it. The things I've encountered ministering to the poor would deeply sicken most folks here. I've never even heard of a wealthy man doing such things to his child. Their 'crime' in some eyes is often spending too much money on a kid.

Many poor people are selfish, clutching onto their last 50 cents no matter what, until they can put some with it to buy cigarettes, having his beer, while refusing to buy a soda for his wife. Poverty is a curse according to Proverbs. However, favoring the rich man over a poor man in a civil court, as was the case in that James passage, on the basis of appearance or money holdings is even worse. Many "middle class" are somewhere between rich and poor, many getting more poor, equally as selfish as any other class of people. A person can be found in all three classes in a matter of months nowadays. It just isn't good to judge anyone on the basis of money or appearance.

I will remain on record that God said he would bless givers. Tithing and giving come with promises, while poverty will not result in financial blessings from God. The blessings come from obedience to tithe and give generously and with gladness. The only hope people in poverty have is to work harder and save themselves out of poverty over a long time, or inherit an estate, or give the way God says to give. The best way out is through faith, doing it God's way. To say ones financial situation isn't linked to giving tells me there's some unbelief of God's word. I do believe very strongly a lot of people have a terrible financial problem, who don't give, or if they do, it's too little and without faith.

Here's the end of my discussion of this thread. 1 Corinthians 9:13-14 (KJV)
[SUP]13 [/SUP] Do ye not know that they which minister about holy things live of the things of the temple? and they which wait at the altar are partakers with the altar?
[SUP]14 [/SUP] Even so hath the Lord ordained that they which preach the gospel should live of the gospel.

Be sure to read that whole chapter. By whom a Christian receives ministry of the gospel, that Christian owes him or her a fair living from fellow believers. It is God's way. Folks, when gospel ministers tell you they need a tithe commitment to tend to the ministry, needing to work by a budget to pay church bills, we ought to respect that. Believe there is no Bible reason to have a church facility to have expenses? Then why are you on the internet reading this? The Bible doesn't sanction this activity by that way of thinking. You should be out on the road two by two staying in one house, ministering to their neighbors, then move on. Ridiculous? Yes. Of course our modern society needs church facilities, and they are expensive, likely a lot more than maintaining a home. If you enjoy that, support it in meaningful ways, beginning with its finances. Then you can gladly give some time there, talents, etc. to the pleasing of the Lord.

If the ministers say they are fine with tips here and there, or no support, like Paul declared in that chapter, respect them. If you don't like their ministry, leave, find another. If you don't want to pay a fair share of support for the ministry you benefit from, leave it to those who will obey the Lord's ordaining of financial supports. I'd rather the stingy pew sitter vacate so the obedient will have a seat. Who wants to sit next to someone in a nice suit who defies such scriptures? I'd rather, and have lots of times, sit next to the homeless man in love with Jesus, whose giving is equal to the widow giving that mite. There are lots of poor like that who have no way to get to your place of worship. When they put the only dollar in their pocket in the offering, let them. I will not steal their blessing.

If anyone feels they don't need anyone to minister to them, they are probably deceived, and many will know it.

 

[Jon4TheCross]

Tithing is not only a requirement to give ten percent...but a condoning of keeping 90 percent. Tithing is more about holding onto a worldly inheritance than it is about giving.
A christian should not claim to even own their own body. Money and stuff is the same...it is yours if you claim it with words and actions.

 

[phil112]

Tithing is not only a requirement ...................

So true. But you can choose not to tithe. Your choice. Want to help or want to pay taxes? Me, I want to give as I am able......I want to be a cheerful giver........you?

 

[Jon4TheCross]

I have nothing of my own to give...except a measure of God. All of my time...resources...trust...hope...etc... is not mine to give anymore...it was given one time...all at once.

 

[StandingFirmInChrist]

Christ said this...

Luk 11:42 But woe unto you, Pharisees! for ye tithe mint and rue and all manner of herbs, and pass over judgment and the love of God: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.

Seems Christ thought we should tithe.

Doesnt say, "woe unto you, Christians", it is addressing Pharisees, and their obligation to tithe agricultural produce as the Law required. Has nothing to do with a monetary tithe whatsoever.

 

[StandingFirmInChrist]

See post #49 and Paul taught that a minister is to be financed by the gospel.

1 Corinthians 9 is not about pastors. It is about Apostles. Those separated from the local assembly and sent into the world to do a work for Christ. And it isn't speaking of finances again. It is speaking about nourishment... Food.

 

[StandingFirmInChrist]

Christ supersedes any other writer of the N.T. and He said...

Luk 11:42 But woe unto you, Pharisees! for ye tithe mint and rue and all manner of herbs, and pass over judgment and the love of God: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.

Paul concurred, see post #49. Now if Paul chose not to take tithes, that was his choice but the weight of scripture establishes tithing.

The tithe instructed in Luke 11:42 is agricultural. Not monetary. Defeats your argument.

 

[StandingFirmInChrist]

has anyone, anywhere, ever actually forbid tithing?
has anyone so much as said "it is not good" to give?

we know that God desires mercy, not sacrifice, and that His apostle encouraged but did not compel giving.

so what do we think? are we like the Mormons? will we track our members paychecks and throw them out of the temple if they don't pay 10% of their gross to the priesthood? or does the Lord we serve love in a more perfect way?

I was kicked out of a Baptist Church in 2012. Why? I refused to tithe, but instead contributed to collections when i was able to. That, and teaching on my Facebook the fact that God did not give His tithe command to any nation but Israel, so preachers were wrong to say that God commands us to tithe.

 

[DesiredHaven]

Jacob (before the law) is shown purposing in his heart (even as Paul suggests) an amount he come up with himself (without a commandment). Jacob purposed a tenth unto God out of the food and rainment (of God's provision) wherewith he was content to ask God for (even as Jesus said the Father knows you have need of these things) that out of the same Jacob would give a tenth back unto God. His grandfather Abram gave tithes of all to Mechchizedek after God delivered his enemies into his hands which was before the sons of Levi received any commandment to take tithes from their brethren according to the law.

Its just sorta cool that what started in a free will sort of offering as one (like Jacob) had purposed so much in his heart to give became something set in stone for a commandment given to recieve of the sons of Levi later.

John the baptist actually preached giving of ones coat (if you had two) and meat too, so even there you can see food and raiment, but that wouldnt be of a tenth having two things (like two coats) and giving one away, because that would really be fifty percent (or half) as is shown in Zacchaeus, "behold Lord, the half of my goods I give to the poor"...

Although Zacchaeus was called a son of Abraham (not Moses) right?

 

[posthuman]

I was kicked out of a Baptist Church in 2012. Why? I refused to tithe, but instead contributed to collections when i was able to. That, and teaching on my Facebook the fact that God did not give His tithe command to any nation but Israel, so preachers were wrong to say that God commands us to tithe.

that's a shame =\
but it is also an honor, for the sake of the Truth.

i agree with you, and believe the scripture does too.

 

[StandingFirmInChrist]

Thanks.

and you are correct... the Scriptures do agree.

leviticus 27:30-34 show God gave the command to Israel.
Psalm 147:19-20 shows that God did not give those commands to any other nation.

acts 15:22-24,28-29 & 21:23-25 reveal that tithe command was not a necessary thing for Gentile nations to keep.

the last place tithes are commanded in the Bible, Hebrews 7:5-8, it is the sons of Levi who have the command to take tithes. Not Gentile Pastors, but the sons of Levi. And that tithe is to be "according to the Law". Agricultural, not monetary.

there is not a single verse in the entire Bible that tells the Church member today that they are required to tithe their money. Those who teach that God requires monetary tithes of us are teaching for doctrine the commandment of men, and that doctrine is not of God.