Are gifts evidence of salvation?

[Lamar]

You are just a time waster. No wonder that house in your avatar is not sitting straight. Also it is built on sand.

When you have no leg to stand on just attack the artwork of my seven year old son.

 

[Musicmaster]

Your assertion of the thief on the cross not being water baptized for the forgiveness of sins is simply conjecture. An assertion build on shaky ground to say the least. Was he baptized for the forgiveness of sins like many others before him, you and I do not know. The difference between the two of us is simple. You would base a argument on an assumption and I would not.

One would have to try and build a case whereby water baptism is the only means to salvation. I don't buy it, even though some denominations hold to that dogma. At the very outset, both thieves reviled Christ. Not something we would hear from someone who had previously believed and been baptized.

MM

 

[DJT_47]

One would have to try and build a case whereby water baptism is the only means to salvation. I don't buy it, even though some denominations hold to that dogma. At the very outset, both thieves reviled Christ. Not something we would hear from someone who had previously believed and been baptized.

MM

1 Peter 3:21

21The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

Acts 22:16

16And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.

 

[Musicmaster]

Yes or no

1. Do you believe that the scriptures teach belief and faith are required for salvation?
2. Do you believe a cording to scripture Romans 10:9 that confession of your belief is required for salvation, also confirmed by the example of the Ethiopian eunuch's conversion in Acts 8?
3. Do you believe according to scripture that repentance is required such as stated in Acts 2:38 and many other scriptures as Luke 24:46-48?
4. Do you believe that baptism is required for salvation according to scripture such as Acts 2:38, Acts 22:16, Mark 16:15-16, and more?

The new birth from above is something that happens on the basis of what Christ accomplished on that cross, not by some formula. Roman's 1 speaks of how creation declares the glory of the Lord, and thus each person's responsibility for recognition of God's reality, and nature does not provide that formula isn't in nature for them to have seen and understood that formula.

The god-in-a-box mentality by way of formulas is just not a proper fit for all people. When someone claims it was conjecture to think the thief had not been previously baptized...thats a two way street.

If you're a lawyer who likes to try and pin another with limited responses of only yes or no, sorry. I'm not playing by your rules. God is vastly more dynamic in how He operates than what fits into your little box of constrained rules.

Its OK if you declare a false victory in this. I'm used to that from others. The God described in the Bible is so awesome and so very glorious...He simply doesn't fit into your little box of formulas.

MM

 

[DJT_47]

I once debated a CoC pastor on Eschatology, and he had more "non-answers" that violated almost every rule for interpretation and hermeneutics than he had answers, not to mention a few logical fallacies to boot.

Then he wanted to talk about the false teaching about the alleged requirement to tithe, and I brought him to silence on that one too.

Then he attacked my working as a DJ in a radio station on Saturdays since I was a local radio personality on a Christian station, and that went south for him also...especially when I asked him what would happen if he stopped preaching on Sabbath, and he admitted that he would be fired. I then asked him if being fired means that he would also no longer get a paycheck from that organization, and he said yes. It was less than a minute before he realized that I had just proven that even he is paid for what he does on Sabbath. He tried to back-pedal by claiming that the majority of all his duties are carried out throughout the rest of the week, and yet refusal to work at preaching on Sabbath was/is a fireable offense. Needless to say, he never could get out from under that one.

He made the mistake in thinking that I was a dumb hick at the time just because I was wearing overalls...judging this book by its cover at that time. Every denomination and alleged non-denomination has items against which they cannot defend when it comes to digging out the inconsistencies and hypocrisies!

MM

Don't know who you "debated", but it definitely wasn't someone of the church of Christ, nor are coC ministers that stupid or scripturally ignorant.

The coC doesn't believe in nor preach tithing as it's not a requirement of the NT. The bible does not define an amount or percentage but rather as you purpose in your heart.

2 Cor 9:7

"Every man according as he purposeth in his heart, so let him give; not grudgingly, or of necessity: for God loveth a cheerful giver."

Also, the coC does NOT regard the Sabbath in any way as Holy or special, nor any day for that matter, nor does it gather together as the body of Christ to worship on the Sabbath; but rather, the church gathers together as the body of Christ according to scripture, on the first day of the week, Sunday.

Acts 20:7

"7And upon the first day of the week, when the disciples came together to break bread, Paul preached unto them, ready to depart on the morrow; and continued his speech until midnight."

 

[DJT_47]

The new birth from above is something that happens on the basis of what Christ accomplished on that cross, not by some formula. Roman's 1 speaks of how creation declares the glory of the Lord, and thus each person's responsibility for recognition of God's reality, and nature does not provide that formula isn't in nature for them to have seen and understood that formula.

The god-in-a-box mentality by way of formulas is just not a proper fit for all people. When someone claims it was conjecture to think the thief had not been previously baptized...thats a two way street.

If you're a lawyer who likes to try and pin another with limited responses of only yes or no, sorry. I'm not playing by your rules. God is vastly more dynamic in how He operates than what fits into your little box of constrained rules.

Its OK if you declare a false victory in this. I'm used to that from others. The God described in the Bible is so awesome and so very glorious...He simply doesn't fit into your little box of formulas.

MM

You can word it to death and try to explain it away, but I'm simply citing and following the scriptures in a logical manner. It ain't rocket science.

 

[Musicmaster]

Don't know who you "debated", but it definitely wasn't someone of the church of Christ, nor are coC ministers that stupid or scripturally ignorant.

The coC doesn't believe in nor preach tithing as it's not a requirement of the NT. The bible does not define an amount or percentage but rather as you purpose in your heart.

2 Cor 9:7

"Every man according as he purposeth in his heart, so let him give; not grudgingly, or of necessity: for God loveth a cheerful giver."

Also, the coC does NOT regard the Sabbath in any way as Holy or special, nor any day for that matter, nor does it gather together as the body of Christ to worship on the Sabbath; but rather, the church gathers together as the body of Christ according to scripture, on the first day of the week, Sunday.

Acts 20:7

"7And upon the first day of the week, when the disciples came together to break bread, Paul preached unto them, ready to depart on the morrow; and continued his speech until midnight."

I was never prepared to call him stupid or ignorant, and yes, he was/is a full blown Church of Christ minister.

Your bent upon ad hominem only degrades your case rather than to bolster it.

MM

 

[DJT_47]

I was never prepared to call him stupid or ignorant, and yes, he was/is a full blown Church of Christ minister.

Your bent upon ad hominem only degrades your case rather than to bolster it.

MM

I have no case to degrade. It's not my ideas or verballizing nonsense as most do here, it's simply the words of the bible I'm presenting. Accept THEM or not. Believe what you like.

 

[Musicmaster]

1 Peter 3:21

21The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

Acts 22:16

16And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.

There are seven different baptisms addressed within scripture, and so fixation on water baptism alone is the playground of those who have never done any systematic studies on the topic, and so I'll just leave it at that.

MM

 

[DJT_47]

There are seven different baptisms addressed within scripture, and so fixation on water baptism alone is the playground of those who have never done any systematic studies on the topic, and so I'll just leave it at that.

MM

And one needs to understand them within their respective context. Your answer is a cop out and proves 0. Believe what you like. Goodbye 👋

 

[Musicmaster]

I have no case to degrade. It's not my ideas or verballizing nonsense as most do here, it's simply the words of the bible I'm presenting. Accept THEM or not. Believe what you like.

The grandiose assumptions you inject into key words such as "saved" and "baptism" pretty much demonstrate the limited scope of your understanding because of you lack in systematic study that reveals the broadness of what you have so easily overlooked.

MM

 

[DJT_47]

The grandiose assumptions you inject into key words such as "saved" and "baptism" pretty much demonstrate the limited scope of your understanding because of you lack in systematic study that reveals the broadness of what you have so easily overlooked.

MM

Blah, blah, blah, just your words. I'm done corresponding with you.

 

[Lamar]

One would have to try and build a case whereby water baptism is the only means to salvation.

No one here is doing such a thing.

I don't buy it, even though some denominations hold to that dogma.

I know of not one denomination that hold to that dogma. But I strongly suspect you are part of a denomination that pushes faith alone regeneration theology. Do you? Be honest.

At the very outset, both thieves reviled Christ. Not something we would hear from someone who had previously believed and been baptized.

Your comment does not change the fact that the difference between you and I is simple. You would base an assertion on an assumption and I would not.

 

[Lamar]

There are seven different baptisms addressed within scripture, and so fixation on water baptism alone is the playground of those who have never done any systematic studies on the topic, and so I'll just leave it at that.

MM

Only seven???

Are you sure that during your "systematic studies on the topic" you did not overlook a few? I have come across people like you who in an attempt to muddy up the need for the remission of sins have cast doubt on water baptism. There are people with more imagination then you who claim up to 19 different "types" of baptisms.

So don't pat yourself on the back about your "systematic studies on the topic", because you cannot see the forest for the trees.

Water baptism is for the forgiveness of sins and to receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. Your argument is not with DJT_47
but the Apostle Peter.

 

[Lamar]

Don't know who you "debated", but it definitely wasn't someone of the church of Christ, nor are coC ministers that stupid or scripturally ignorant.

The coC doesn't believe in nor preach tithing as it's not a requirement of the NT. The bible does not define an amount or percentage but rather as you purpose in your heart.

2 Cor 9:7

"Every man according as he purposeth in his heart, so let him give; not grudgingly, or of necessity: for God loveth a cheerful giver."

Also, the coC does NOT regard the Sabbath in any way as Holy or special, nor any day for that matter, nor does it gather together as the body of Christ to worship on the Sabbath; but rather, the church gathers together as the body of Christ according to scripture, on the first day of the week, Sunday.

Acts 20:7

"7And upon the first day of the week, when the disciples came together to break bread, Paul preached unto them, ready to depart on the morrow; and continued his speech until midnight."

I also strongly doubt that he "debated" a church of Christ minister. I actually suspect he made the story up.

 

[Lamar]

Your bent upon ad hominem only degrades your case rather than to bolster it.

Your bent upon the anecdotal only degrades your case rather than bolster it.

 

[Lamar]

I think they do today!

That is so funny.

The thought of jackasses speaking in tongues made me shoot root beer through my nose!

 

[Moses_Young]

I never met a Christian who would "deny the possibility of miracles".

Have you?

Maybe not explicitly. But implicitly, yes. For example - some will pray that God will guide the doctors' hands... Whilst not wrong, of what use are doctors to God? If God wants to heal, does He need doctors to do His work for Him? Why not simply pray that God Himself will do the healing, and get the glory, while leaving the doctors out of getting any credit?

 

[DJT_47]

I also strongly doubt that he "debated" a church of Christ minister. I actually suspect he made the story up.

He could have maybe spoken with someone from a group with a similar name like the United church of Christ who DO regard the Sabbath which is my guess but for sure it wasn't anyone from the coC

 

[mailmandan]

One would have to try and build a case whereby water baptism is the only means to salvation. I don't buy it, even though some denominations hold to that dogma. At the very outset, both thieves reviled Christ. Not something we would hear from someone who had previously believed and been baptized.

MM

Certain people may try to argue that the thief on the cross may have been converted, was water baptized, yet the fruit of that is being crucified as a thief? - (highly unlikely)

In Matthew 27:39-44, we see that those who passed by, along with the chief priests' scribes and elders blasphemed, mocked and shook their heads at Jesus and EVEN THE ROBBERS WHO WERE CRUCIFIED WITH HIM REVILED HIM WITH THE SAME THING. More fruit? I certainly don't see being crucified as a thief, blaspheming, mocking and shaking your head at Jesus as being the fruit of repentance/faith. Yet, moments later, we see that one of the thieves had a "change of mind" (repentance) placed his faith in Christ for salvation and was saved (Luke 23:40-43). Of course, he died while still hanging on the cross before having the opportunity to be water baptized.