Are we sinners?

[KJV1611]

Our inward man, the new man, the inner man is what God created in us when we were born again of the Spirit. It is God in Christ in us (God was in Christ reconciling the world unto himself (2 Cor. 5:19) Christ in you the hope of glory (Colossians 1:27). . . via the gift of holy Spirit.

Therefore if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. The old has passed away; behold the new has come. All this is from God . . . . Has nothing to do with "man's mind". . . .

This causes the war between the flesh and the Spirit - our old man nature and our new man nature - This is the struggle Paul talks about in Romans 7. When we walk by the Spirit we will not gratify the desires of the flesh. For the desires of the flesh are against the Spirit, and the desires of the Spirit are against the flesh, for these are opposed to each other, to keep you from doing the things you want to do. (Galatians 5:16,17) Our Spirit desires to walk in obedience and that is our true desire but then our old man (the flesh) rears its ugly head!! and tries and sometimes DOES override our Spirit.

I disagree, it has everything to do with man's mind, man's mind is what gets renewed. If we walk by the Spirit then we walk in agreement with our inner man. If we walk in the flesh then we are in agreement with the flesh... the new man can't walk in the flesh, it's not possible for him to do so. This is what Paul is talking about in Romans 7 isn't it. Paul is in agreement with his inner man, he loves the law of God and submits to it in his mind. But with his mortal body he still sins, he still can't do the things his mind says are good.

 

[oldthennew]

we can always find 'excuses' to serve the flesh, but, of course we find that it 'profits nothing'...

the peace that we seek can only come through the righteousness of the Spirit, because,
the un-righteousness of the flesh always leads us into 'bondage'....
and I testify, that I have 'over-come' many lusts of the flesh, through Jesus Christ, my Lord,
for I can do ALL THINGS through Christ, who strengthens me'.
and again,
it is not I that does it, but Christ that dwells in me.....my fruits bear witness of this.....

 

[Grace777x70]

Gotcha!....yes and we are back to the spirit ( our inner man where the Holy Spirit is ) and the flesh ( with the power of sin in it.) which is in our body are contrary to each other....we use our will ( part of our soul ) to activate either what the spirit wants or the flesh wants.

I believe it is knowing who we are in Christ and having His life in us manifesting through and in our inner man/spirit - is what effects true change in our outward behavior. This is done by the choosing with our will to "be who we really are " in Christ.

This is what produces " fruit "from the Vine in us..namely Christ's life. It's His fruit coming forth. This kinda what it is like for me anyways...is just a natural way of life. I have no desire to do things I would in the past. His love in me just comes out naturally so that I never have to think.." am I loving this person?"...it's like I'm just living the life in me..which is His.

Scriptures come up within me too which cement what is going on inside of me to illicit an action. I never really thought about it in that much detail before. I'll have to ponder it and pray over it to see if I can articulate this better.

I'm off to a Christmas party..have a great night!..

Exactly, the outer man can't be renewed... the outer man is where all those desires of the flesh reside, those desires don't go away and as Paul says, he can't master them. The good things he wants to do, he can't do them because of his flesh., but in his mind he loves those things.

I can't do videos.. I have HughesNet and videos use up my data too fast.

 

[KJV1611]

I disagree, it has everything to do with man's mind, man's mind is what gets renewed. If we walk by the Spirit then we walk in agreement with our inner man. If we walk in the flesh then we are in agreement with the flesh... the new man can't walk in the flesh, it's not possible for him to do so. This is what Paul is talking about in Romans 7 isn't it. Paul is in agreement with his inner man, he loves the law of God and submits to it in his mind. But with his mortal body he still sins, he still can't do the things his mind says are good.

This is the glory of the gospel... We get saved, God causes us to love his law, the flesh is still at enmity with God's law so we are guiltless because with our mind we serve the law of God and with our mortal bodies the law of sin and death. But if we agree that the law of God is good, then we no longer sin, but sin that dwells within us sins... there is therefore no condemnation for us who agree that the law is good, even though we still give in to the flesh, we are guiltless.

 

[KJV1611]

we can always find 'excuses' to serve the flesh, but, of course we find that it 'profits nothing'...

the peace that we seek can only come through the righteousness of the Spirit, because,
the un-righteousness of the flesh always leads us into 'bondage'....
and I testify, that I have 'over-come' many lusts of the flesh, through Jesus Christ, my Lord,
for I can do ALL THINGS through Christ, who strengthens me'.
and again,
it is not I that does it, but Christ that dwells in me.....my fruits bear witness of this.....

Now that I can agree with. If we have any victory over the flesh, the victory comes from Christ and not ourselves. We have no control over it, it is a gift from him.

 

[ladylynn]

Yes but all of those are the inner man... the one that Paul says loves the law of God, the one that is renewed everyday. The new man or inner man is the non-tangible man, he is the man in our mind. I will always believe in my mind that the law is good even when my outer man is lusting after a new house or a new car or new boat etc. I want scripture that says this outer man is renewed.

Your post sure does hit home with me. I found out that the law is good but it has no POWER to make anyone good. The law is PERFECT but it has no power to make anyone perfect. So sure., we know the law is good but our problem is we think it's our job to keep it., and we fail and condemn ourselves daily for it.

But God doesn't ONLY work in our lives and never show us on the outside that He is working. He confirms our walk as we are walking by faith. It is an awesome thing to see God working in the physical realm too. To see the work of faith make changes on our outer man AND our outer circumstances.

When our minds are changed and are on the way to learning what renewal is., we realize we are not all that and our thoughts and opinions from all those years are but a drop in the bucket. Things we thought would never change about us we find in fact HAVE changed. Like poster Blondindahouse states on the bottom of her post. We get a taste for Jesus ways and we wonder why we stayed so long in our old ways of thinking.

The great thing about a change of mind is we are still us personality wise since He made us individuals., and we are still allowed to like (in my case) pretty things and even have them., but our love will not be for them. Our priorities are getting more like Jesus' each day. We don't hoard stuff, we even many times just get something we really wanted and saved for only to meet someone who is in need and we are moved by the Holy Spirit to give it away. And shocker we are even more happy that we did that and identified with Jesus.

We always know the Father will take care of us. We have confidence that we can give all we have away but God will always take care of us. I have never been without since following Jesus by faith. I was a Christian for a loooooong time before Jesus was 'allowed' BY ME to 'DO' my life. I didn't trust Him because I didn't know He was promising to take care of me right now too.

I always figured yess, He will take me to heaven and I'll be dressed in robes of righteousness then., but now I will have to freeze. NO, that is not how our heavenly Father teaches us. By leaving us to freeze and be destitute.

Some Christians believe if we show God how destitute we are willing to be for Him He will be happy. So they never ask for Him to meet their needs or give them things they enjoy. They end up like me., striving for those things ON MY OWN. I still wanted them and figured to get them without bothering God. When all along God would have given me all things had I just trusting Him in the first place. And then He changes us so we find we don't really love those thing as we thought we would anyway and find a new and better way to think and live that brings MORE joy and happiness and contentment than we ever dreamed we would have here on earth. The JOY OF THE LORD IS OUR STRENGTH.

We can't love people unless we know God loves us. We can't give away what we do not know we have for sure. Grace is a teacher for sure.

 

[psalm6819]

Lets be harsh

"Why would Jesus – who nailed the law to the cross and died so that we might live free from its demands – suddenly turn around and start laying law on his church?"

When Jesus died he died to show the sin against him was forgiven. He did not stop the law or its punishment, he actually added to it with the command, "Love one another as I have loved you."

This is a command of sacrifice and hardship, becoming a servant to others, washing their feet, taking the lower place rather than the higher.

In Jesus if we walk in His ways we walk in righteousness. But all hyper-grace is preaching is walking how your conscience says is ok. Worst still if anyone finds sin, rather than confessing it and repenting, humbling oneself, dealing with the harm and walking on, it is just ignored, because it is the flesh and not the individual at all, so already forgiven.

This is just licenousness, no desire to changing or doing the right thing, but based on the idea you are already perfect you just need to walk in it. The problem is sin shows this is simply a lie. It just becomes justification for failure and an excuse to party. Only the depraved would think this is a good idea, because the damage that any sin does is being denied, and its effects talked about as irrelevant. Now this idea works in a world of nice middle class people who basically do nice stuff, but would never work among sinners or the lost.

So who are these people who preach this? People who have been in church for 10+ years and are moving out of legalism into a more relaxed view of life. They are so far removed from real life or non-religious behaviour, everything they speak is like a reformed pharisee who has just shacked up with their lover.

Funnily two leaders from my church, who left their wives, got new partners, through messy affairs, now go to these type of churches. Makes me wonder how many divorces Grace7x77 has been through already?

and your ministry is to condemn brothers and sisters in Christ???

If it is you are certainly suceeding....

causing contention with your name calling, unwarranted accusations and passive-agressive behavior.

In truth ,those you attack show more Christlike qualities than you.

 

[kathryn]

Our inward man, the new man, the inner man is what God created in us when we were born again of the Spirit. It is God in Christ in us (God was in Christ reconciling the world unto himself (2 Cor. 5:19) Christ in you the hope of glory (Colossians 1:27). . . via the gift of holy Spirit.

Therefore if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. The old has passed away; behold the new has come. All this is from God . . . . Has nothing to do with "man's mind". . . .

This causes the war between the flesh and the Spirit - our old man nature and our new man nature - This is the struggle Paul talks about in Romans 7. When we walk by the Spirit we will not gratify the desires of the flesh. For the desires of the flesh are against the Spirit, and the desires of the Spirit are against the flesh, for these are opposed to each other, to keep you from doing the things you want to do. (Galatians 5:16,17) Our Spirit desires to walk in obedience and that is our true desire but then our old man (the flesh) rears its ugly head!! and tries and sometimes DOES override our Spirit.

You know much.
There's only one problem.
In the verses you are talking about in romans 7 Paul always lost the battle and the holy spirit is not mentioned. How do you explain that?

 

[psalm6819]

and your ministry is to condemn brothers and sisters in Christ???

If it is you are certainly suceeding....

causing contention with your name calling, unwarranted accusations and passive-agressive behavior.

In truth ,those you attack show more Christlike qualities than you.

I'm sorry Mr Jens, I lost my temper I shouldn't have been so unkind. I cannot edit it out-waited to long.........
i

 

[ladylynn]

I'm sorry Mr Jens, I lost my temper I shouldn't have been so unkind. I cannot edit it out-waited to long.........
i

I don't think you were harsh after I read what Peter had said especially at the end of his post. If anything, he needs to apologize for taking his disagreement to a personal level here with Grace777. I agree with your post and do hope he apologizes. Wow., for a little blonde, you sure got spunk!!!
(like on MaryTylerMoore show when Lou tells Mary., You got spunk!!)

 

[oldthennew]

the Holy Spirit is our HELPER, NOT our DOER!!

we have to be of a 'willing-Spirit',
as it is written,
'Every man offers willingly from his own heart'......

 

[oldthennew]

I'm sorry Mr Jens, I lost my temper I shouldn't have been so unkind. I cannot edit it out-waited to long.........
i

===================

your humility is greatly appreciated, no matter the cause!!!!

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

the Holy Spirit is our HELPER, NOT our DOER!!

we have to be of a 'willing-Spirit',
as it is written,
'Every man offers willingly from his own heart'......

The converse almost seems to be what OSASers and New Gracers think.

 

[oldthennew]

it seems that what you think matters much more that understanding what others think?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I disagree, it has everything to do with man's mind, man's mind is what gets renewed. If we walk by the Spirit then we walk in agreement with our inner man. If we walk in the flesh then we are in agreement with the flesh... the new man can't walk in the flesh, it's not possible for him to do so. This is what Paul is talking about in Romans 7 isn't it. Paul is in agreement with his inner man, he loves the law of God and submits to it in his mind. But with his mortal body he still sins, he still can't do the things his mind says are good.

I think this is why it gets confusing, It sounds like your saying a believer can not sin.lol

Yes, The old man can not do any good (the flesh) the new mad cannot do any sin

What happens, is whoever is directing us at any given moment will determine what we do.

 

[Euphemia]

The converse almost seems to be what OSASers and New Gracers think.

LOL! And that's what YOU think!

 

[eternally-gratefull]

it seems that what you think matters much more that understanding what others think?

Thanks I was going to say something, but since You did, I will leave it alone.

 

[PeterJens]

What I am saying is I BELIEVE Gods love so far exceeds mankinds view of love, that unless we have experienced in in grace we can not comprehend what it is..

There is a simple problem here. Your group has defined grace in a new way, that is not biblical.
You have used the word grace to mean Jesus being sent, and everything to do with salvation is summed up by grace.

Now it is fine to invent new ways of using language, but that is not from scripture, it is your groups invention.
So by definition if grace means salvation, if I have not experienced salvation I have not experienced Gods grace.

But using language like this is meaningless. It does not add insight into the Lord it just complicates things more.
Grace in english is manners, the way you allow things to wait until you decide to act. So you can be late for a meeting and the good grace of the person is not to react.

So by your definition of grace I know grace completely, but still I do not agree with the ideas.
The problem with this way of thinking is it is self justifying, it gives the illusion of being co-herent but it is not.

By your way of thinking is you are saved you will accept eternal security but if not you are not saved. You then go on to claim you do not know who is saved, which by your own definition it is based on who believes in eternal security.

Going deep, salvation is dependent not on the cross or faith in Jesus but faith in eternal security.

Your whole construct is just wrong. By walking with Jesus we have the deposite of the Holy Spirit in our hearts that conveys the reality of the new relationship. This is an experiential reality not a theological one.

A follower of Jesus rests on the promises and knowledge of the love of Jesus through the cross.
Now the word grace is not here because it does not feature in the bible except as a minor reference.

So it is little wonder to me we are talking a different faith, because you have invented a whole new theology and explanation of salvation. But I am happy to document your construction.

 

[PeterJens]

I'm sorry Mr Jens, I lost my temper I shouldn't have been so unkind. I cannot edit it out-waited to long.........
i

They have called me a pharisee, an unbeliever, someone who does not know Gods love, so what I am saying is nothing.
They have invented a whole new theology, made the gospels irrelevant and claim to still be christians.

Now when I share about transformation of one emotional foundations, I am accused of being worldly philosophical.
If I share about how we as humans have stored responses which define our day to day interactions, and a slower system which reprograms these responses, that this is worldly.

At this point I give up believing there are any sensible reference points with grace7x77 or eternally-grateful.

Some would say I am unbelievably patient. But maybe more here agree with them and their heresies. More and more people are becoming aware of how this theology is spreading through the christian world.

It concerns me, and I would like to define the ideas they are proposing, but it certainly is not what the apostles preached. Some would claim they are now more authorative than scripture itself, so this kind of "revelation" is important to understand and confront.

I started one thread on hyper-grace on the basis that is did not actually exist. I was wrong.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

There is a simple problem here. Your group has defined grace in a new way, that is not biblical.
You have used the word grace to mean Jesus being sent, and everything to do with salvation is summed up by grace.

Now it is fine to invent new ways of using language, but that is not from scripture, it is your groups invention.
So by definition if grace means salvation, if I have not experienced salvation I have not experienced Gods grace.

Well I think scripture is pretty clear. this is true How can you experience Gods grace unless you are saved.

It is not a made up thing, Can you ever discuss anything without having to make sarcastic comments? You remind me so much of the church I grew up in and some of the men in there, it sickens me.

But using language like this is meaningless. It does not add insight into the Lord it just complicates things more.
Grace in english is manners, the way you allow things to wait until you decide to act. So you can be late for a meeting and the good grace of the person is not to react.

It confuses people? Hmm. Now I have heard everything. I think it gives great insight, Gods love as shown through Gods infinite mercy (grace) That's God.

So by your definition of grace I know grace completely, but still I do not agree with the ideas.
The problem with this way of thinking is it is self justifying, it gives the illusion of being co-herent but it is not.

well I am glad you think so. But I still do not see it..

Your view of Gods grace to me is not grace at all, it must be earned, which is not grace..

By your way of thinking is you are saved you will accept eternal security but if not you are not saved. You then go on to claim you do not know who is saved, which by your own definition it is based on who believes in eternal security.

If you were saved you would understand..

I cannot determine who is saved, because I am not God. People can say anything and act ways which appears they are saved, and they might not be at all.

But hey, If you think I can be God and know who is saved,,

Going deep, salvation is dependent not on the cross or faith in Jesus but faith in eternal security.

Faith in Jesus is eternal security, It is faith in his promise..

If I do not have eternal life (my hope, and God can not lie as paul told titus) then I have no faith.

Again, you have the core or foundation of the belief backwards from the way I see it. that's why you can not understand it the way I do. and why we do not agree.

Your whole construct is just wrong. By walking with Jesus we have the deposite of the Holy Spirit in our hearts that conveys the reality of the new relationship. This is an experiential reality not a theological one.

lol.. Experiential. That's what I have been saying all along.. further proof your not listening.

A follower of Jesus rests on the promises and knowledge of the love of Jesus through the cross.
Now the word grace is not here because it does not feature in the bible except as a minor reference.

So it is little wonder to me we are talking a different faith, because you have invented a whole new theology and explanation of salvation. But I am happy to document your construction.

You are happy t do what? Prove you continue to not know what I am saying??

Well I am happy once again to show you you are still in error.

Now. Your arrogance and personal attacks are getting to the point of making believe you are just a religious phariee They did the same thing because they had no truth to stand on.

So when you want to discuss the word without comments, belittling, and attack. Come to me. Until then, please, once more, go away, I am sick of playing childish games with people who think they are know it alls.