Are you a body with a soul, or a soul with a body?

[The_Parson]

I think he meant “ultimately”.

Sorry, I guess I get carried away from time to time.

 

[Cameron143]

In the beginning, we see the Father breathe the spirit into the clay. The clay became a living soul. So, the spirit of God made man a living being, with God’s spirit in him he could be called “..Adam, the son of God“ because he possessed the attribute of his Father; His spirit. From his own point of view, Adam was a spirit clothed in flesh. That is why he could be naked and not ashamed: what was actually important was covered by flesh.

When Adam sinned, he first reasoned for the benefit of his flesh, not his spirit. The fruit was good food, pleasing to look at, and could make him wise. This is the same trap John warned about (the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life). When the needs of the soul are elevated about the spirit, a condition called darkness overtakes the man. Why darkness? Because the default setting of every man is “light”, not neutrality, because of the spirit of God in them. It’s the same reason all men begin their lives in a condition called “lost”: their lives originated with God but they are not reconciled (brought back to their original position) to Him unless they receive the Son. “God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself…”

Later, and to reconcile man to God, we see the Son breathe on His disciples with the instruction to receive the Holy Spirit. This was important because man was not a lump of clay but a living being in a world controlled by the evil one. God’s nature (spirit) creates life, the Holy Spirit redeems life from darkness. It’s effectively a different administration of the same Spirit. Just like the Spirit may create animals and the Spirit may create the heavenlies (as we saw in Genesis). So, empowerment against the schemes of the enemy is necessary because these schemes have created tradition for thousands of years founded on darkness: preserving the soul and the flesh above all else.

In summary: all men have the spirit of God in them. We only partake of His divine nature by coming out of darkness and receiving the One sent to redeem us from the world. Only by Him do we receive the Holy Spirit and move out of our state of condemnation and darkness.

I appreciate you sharing the explanation. It's still a leap too far for me. But you have given me some things to explore.

 

[BobCarabbio]

Sorry, I guess I get carried away from time to time.

But HEY!!!! it's nothing but "Theology" after all!!! Theolog is like noses - everybody's got one.

 

[HeIsHere]

Annihilated. No longer existing.

We cannot read “forever” and insert perpetuity. It often means “until the end of the age” or “to completeness”.
When God is all in all there is no more darkness, demons, or evil.

You make this equation yet does a lexicographical search of the word in ancient literature give this meaning?

If you do the research you will learn that there is nothing in the word that necessitates ἀπόλλυμι means a permanent and total destruction.

I agree we cannot read "forever."

Scripture does not really tells us that much about the after life but the theologians who started this annihilation trend should not be forcing an interpretation into the words which does not fit how the ancient culture and even today in that region is not the correct understanding of the word.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

In the beginning, we see the Father breathe the spirit into the clay. The clay became a living soul. So, the spirit of God made man a living being, with God’s spirit in him he could be called “..Adam, the son of God“ because he possessed the attribute of his Father; His spirit. From his own point of view, Adam was a spirit clothed in flesh. That is why he could be naked and not ashamed: what was actually important was covered by flesh.

When Adam sinned, he first reasoned for the benefit of his flesh, not his spirit. The fruit was good food, pleasing to look at, and could make him wise. This is the same trap John warned about (the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life). When the needs of the soul are elevated about the spirit, a condition called darkness overtakes the man. Why darkness? Because the default setting of every man is “light”, not neutrality, because of the spirit of God in them. It’s the same reason all men begin their lives in a condition called “lost”: their lives originated with God but they are not reconciled (brought back to their original position) to Him unless they receive the Son. “God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself…”

Later, and to reconcile man to God, we see the Son breathe on His disciples with the instruction to receive the Holy Spirit. This was important because man was not a lump of clay but a living being in a world controlled by the evil one. God’s nature (spirit) creates life, the Holy Spirit redeems life from darkness. It’s effectively a different administration of the same Spirit. Just like the Spirit may create animals and the Spirit may create the heavenlies (as we saw in Genesis). So, empowerment against the schemes of the enemy is necessary because these schemes have created tradition for thousands of years founded on darkness: preserving the soul and the flesh above all else.

In summary: all men have the spirit of God in them. We only partake of His divine nature by coming out of darkness and receiving the One sent to redeem us from the world. Only by Him do we receive the Holy Spirit and move out of our state of condemnation and darkness.

amen brother but “ the Holy Ghost “ is different in tbat it is the spirit of Jesus the son of man who died and rose to life again . It’s the spirit of the son given at the cross the promises Jesus was making in the gospel

“In the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink. He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.

(But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)”
‭‭John‬ ‭7:37-39‬ ‭KJV‬‬


“Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.”
‭‭John‬ ‭16:7‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“If ye love me, keep my commandments. And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you. He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.”
‭‭John‬ ‭14:15-16, 18, 21‬ ‭KJV‬‬


“And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost.”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭23:46‬ ‭KJV‬‬

the Holy Ghost is as if Jesus comes to dwell with us like the disciples. Leading our spirit back to him

“This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses. Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭2:32-33‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.”
‭‭Galatians‬ ‭4:6‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭8:16‬ ‭KJV‬‬

some tend to look at this as a replacement event spirit but rather he is a healer of our own spirit and healer and mind. Our shepherd who leads us home through the valley of the shadow of death. Gods intimate presence with man is what the gospel has come to restore

putting us all n the place of a disciple of Jesus the lord who’s with us personally by his spirit come to save and restore and redeem our living spirit

 

[The_Parson]

But HEY!!!! it's nothing but "Theology" after all!!! Theolog is like noses - everybody's got one.

I perceive you are akin to a unique rabbit. You know how you catch a unique rabbit? Unique up on it.

 

[HeIsHere]

some tend to look at this as a replacement event spirit but rather he is a healer of our own spirit and healer and mind. Our shepherd who leads us home through the valley of the shadow of death. Gods intimate presence with man is what the gospel has come to restore

putting us all n the place of a disciple of Jesus the lord who’s with us personally by his spirit come to save and restore and redeem our living spirit

Amen, well put, so encouraging the truth you share.

Dead means separated not non-existent or unable to act.

 

[Aaron56]

You make this equation yet does a lexicographical search of the word in ancient literature give this meaning?

If you do the research you will learn that there is nothing in the word that necessitates ἀπόλλυμι means a permanent and total destruction.

I agree we cannot read "forever."

Scripture does not really tells us that much about the after life but the theologians who started this annihilation trend should not be forcing an interpretation into the words which does not fit how the ancient culture and even today in that region is not the correct understanding of the word.

I’m certainly not forcing anything. I believe my understanding come from time with the Lord. And I certainly don’t begrudge someone who thinks otherwise.

 

[HeIsHere]

I’m certainly not forcing anything. I believe my understanding come from time with the Lord. And I certainly don’t begrudge someone who thinks otherwise.

There is only one truth, one reality and it must first and foremost be presented in scripture.
Nothing can be forced that is true.

 

[Aaron56]

amen brother but “ the Holy Ghost “ is different in tbat it is the spirit of Jesus the son of man who died and rose to life again . It’s the spirit of the son given at the cross the promises Jesus was making in the gospel

“In the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink. He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.

(But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)”
‭‭John‬ ‭7:37-39‬ ‭KJV‬‬


“Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.”
‭‭John‬ ‭16:7‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“If ye love me, keep my commandments. And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you. He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.”
‭‭John‬ ‭14:15-16, 18, 21‬ ‭KJV‬‬


“And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost.”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭23:46‬ ‭KJV‬‬

the Holy Ghost is as if Jesus comes to dwell with us like the disciples. Leading our spirit back to him

“This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses. Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭2:32-33‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.”
‭‭Galatians‬ ‭4:6‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭8:16‬ ‭KJV‬‬

some tend to look at this as a replacement event spirit but rather he is a healer of our own spirit and healer and mind. Our shepherd who leads us home through the valley of the shadow of death. Gods intimate presence with man is what the gospel has come to restore

putting us all n the place of a disciple of Jesus the lord who’s with us personally by his spirit come to save and restore and redeem our living spirit

Yes!

God tells the story in a way that benefits man; a most common denominator kind of approach. It’s a worthy endeavor to search out what is not obvious.

 

[Aaron56]

There is only one truth, one reality and it must first and foremost be presented in scripture.
Nothing can be forced that is true.

Ironically, the scripture attributes the authority of truth to a person. And He has delegated that responsibility to the Holy Spirit.

 

[HeIsHere]

Ironically, the scripture attributes the authority of truth to a person. And He has delegated that responsibility to the Holy Spirit.

Interesting, does scripture play a role?

 

[Magenta]

I’m certainly not forcing anything. I believe my understanding come from time with the Lord.
And I certainly don’t begrudge someone who thinks otherwise.

Augustine made ect popular. Conditional immortality certainly predates that view.

Scripture is very clear: life is in Christ.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

Amen, well put, so encouraging the truth you share.

Dead means separated not non-existent or unable to act.

We aren’t dead yet Jesus is trying to save us from it

“I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭13:3‬ ‭

“For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.”
‭‭John‬ ‭3:16-17‬ ‭

It’s like we are on death row we’re condemned to death by sin but it hasn’t happened yet. The gospel is trying to offer us a pardon and rehabilitation so we can live in a better society and not die in the second spiritual death

 

[vassal]

While reading the thread about Baptism of the Holy Spirit, this thought came to me that I thought might be ignored in a thread that's so involved. Do you consider yourself a body, with a spirit and with an eternal soul, or an eternal soul that has a temporal body that's governed by a God given spirit?

It sound like a dumb question until you think and pray about it for a bit.

If we look at mans creation from genesis it reads;

Gen 2:7 Then the LORD God formed man from the dust of the ground and breathed the breath of life into his nostrils, and the man became a living being.

so the body first then the soul.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

Yes!

God tells the story in a way that benefits man; a most common denominator kind of approach. It’s a worthy endeavor to search out what is not obvious.

“And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion….
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭1:26‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father,

and ye in me, ( son)

and I in you.”( Holy Ghost )
‭‭John‬ ‭14:20‬ ‭

 

[Pilgrimshope]

If we look at mans creation from genesis it reads;

Gen 2:7 Then the LORD God formed man from the dust of the ground and breathed the breath of life into his nostrils, and the man became a living being.

so the body first then the soul.

And also at death body first dies then spirit returns to God

“Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: ( at creation )

and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.”
‭‭Ecclesiastes‬ ‭12:7‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“And as it is appointed unto men once to die, ( body )

but after this the judgment:”( spirit )
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭9:27‬ ‭

“For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ;( spirit ) that every one may receive the things done in his body, ( flesh ) according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.”
‭‭2 Corinthians‬ ‭5:10‬ ‭KJV‬‬

 

[Pilgrimshope]

Interesting, does scripture play a role?

“It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

….Then said Jesus unto the twelve, Will ye also go away? Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life.”
‭‭John‬ ‭6:63, 67-68‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away.”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭21:33‬ ‭KJV‬‬


“For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭4:12‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently: being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever. …..But the word of the Lord endureth for ever. And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you.”
‭‭1 Peter‬ ‭1:22-23, 25‬ ‭KJV‬

 

[The_Parson]

man became a living being

No, bad definition or translation rather. The angels became living beings but they don't possess a soul. My goodness, what version are you using?

 

[TMS]

No, bad definition or translation rather. The angels became living beings but they don't possess a soul. My goodness, what version are you using?

Gen 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

Dust and physical elements + the breath of life = a living soul.

The pagan teachings from the start teach that the soul is immortal. This is the first lie of the Devil... the soul dies and we become dust when the breath of life returns to God.