Are you a monergist or a synergist?

[reneweddaybyday]

I didn't just benefit from the promise God made to Abraham and his seed. I am his seed, because I'm in Christ. The Apostle Paul explains in Galatians that belonging to Christ makes a person Abraham's descendant and an heir to the covenant.

yes ... however, Galatians is also clear that the promises made to Abraham were specifically for Abraham's "Seed" (singular) ... and the Seed God had in view is the Lord Jesus Christ ... "Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ" (Galatians 3:16).

That God has graciously included believers as joint-heirs with Christ does not negate the fact that God made promise to Messiah through Abraham.

Galatians 3:8-9, 14

8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.

9 So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham.

...

14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

I was never a physical descendant of Abraham ... I was born a "heathen" (vs 8), a "gentile" (vs 14). However, God has graciously included me in "the blessing of Abraham" through the Lord Jesus Christ ... that I might "receive the promise of the Spirit through faith".

You have no argument with me regarding the false doctrine known as "replacement theology". The Bible doesn't teach any such thing.

phew!!! ... marking my calendar that Journey_man and reneweddaybyday are in agreement on this issue!!!

In Romans 9:11-13 the text explicitly states that Gods choice to love Jacob and hate Esau happened "before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad". This timing proves that God's decision did not depend on human merit or foreseen action.

what is explicitly stated in Romans 9:11-13 "before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad" was, according to Romans 9:12 "the elder shall serve the younger". Romans 9:12 reiterates what God told Rebekah in Genesis 25:23 before the twins were born.

you really need to let go of your error concerning this issue ... quit arguing and accept the fact that God told Rebekah "the elder shall serve the younger" and what God had written in Malachi was "Jacob have I loved and Esau have I hated". Romans 9:13 reiterates what was written in Malachi 1:2-3, long after both Jacob and Esau were dead and gone.

God’s "hatred" of Esau represents His eternal decree of non-election (reprobation)—a sovereign decision not to appoint Esau to salvific grace, leaving him to the just consequences of his inherited sin from Adam.

The "non-election" refers to the covenant promises God gave to Abraham ... reiterated to Isaac ... reiterated to Jacob.

I am not a partaker of the promises through Jacob or Isaac. The partakers of the promises through Jacob would be the children of Israel ... the Jews.

Gentile believers are partakers of the promises to Abraham through faith in the Lord Jesus Christ as He is the "Seed" to Whom the promises relate. Isaac, Jacob, the children of Israel could be partakers of the promise through lineal descendancy. However, just because someone is a lineal descendant of Jacob, that does not mean they are partakers of the promises. It is only through faith in the Lord Jesus Christ that one becomes a partaker of the promises.

As you rightly pointed out, Romans 9:11-13 reveals that the Covenant made with Abraham and his seed had nothing to do with ethnicity, and everything to do with the bible doctrine of election to salvation and reprobation. Esau was not chosen for salvation before the world was made, so he was a reprobate before he was born.

do not agree with you on your understanding of these verses.

Your claim that Adam never sinned is not true IOW it's a lie. I'm not sure who sold you that lie but the light of scriptures exposes every lie.

I never said "Adam never sinned".

I asked you to provide chapter and verse wherein it is stated "Adam was a sinner/unbeliever so he was a God hater" as you claimed (bold mine):

Journey_man said:​

Whilst there is no specific verse stating that Adam hated God, I noted some verses which reveal that unbelievers hate God. Adam was a sinner/unbeliever so he was a God hater, just as every other unbeliever is.​

fyi ... I do not believe Adam hated God. Did Adam sin? Yes. Was Adam an unbeliever"? No. Did Adam "hate God"? No.

When you sin, does that mean you are an "unbeliever". When you sin, do you "hate God"? ... and if you tell me you never sin, you are deceiving yourself (1 John 1:8).

I have already shown you scriptures which confirm that Adam did sin, and I have shown many other scriptures which reveal that sinners hate God. So you're not rejecting my view, you're rejecting Gods Word.

I never said Adam didn't sin. Scripture is clear that Adam did sin.

Scripture does not, however, state that Adam hated God as you continue to insist. Nor does Scripture indicate that Adam was an unbeliever the whole of his life. I believe Adam and Eve both believed in Messiah promised in Genesis 3:15 ... which is why God made sacrifice for both of them and clothed them with skins to cover the shame of their sin. God's offering was not insufficient to cover their sin.

Your view regarding God reaching out to everyone with an offer of salvation is not supported by Gods Word. Because every person is born spiritually dead and corrupted by sin. Because of this fallen nature, no one can accept Gods offer, unless God regenerates them first and gives them the gift of faith.

I know that is what you believe and I believe what is stated in Romans 1:

Romans 1:16-19

16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it [the gospel of Christ] is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.

18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness

The gospel of Christ is the power of God. It is not our believing which brings salvation ... it is the gospel of Christ which is powerful.

Those who suppress the truth in unrighteousness when the gospel is preached do not receive the promised salvation.

.

 

[Journey_man]

yes ... however, Galatians is also clear that the promises made to Abraham were specifically for Abraham's "Seed" (singular) ... and the Seed God had in view is the Lord Jesus Christ ... "Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ" (Galatians 3:16).

That God has graciously included believers as joint-heirs with Christ does not negate the fact that God made promise to Messiah through Abraham.

Galatians 3:8-9, 14

8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.

9 So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham.

...

14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

I was never a physical descendant of Abraham ... I was born a "heathen" (vs 8), a "gentile" (vs 14). However, God has graciously included me in "the blessing of Abraham" through the Lord Jesus Christ ... that I might "receive the promise of the Spirit through faith".





phew!!! ... marking my calendar that Journey_man and reneweddaybyday are in agreement on this issue!!!





what is explicitly stated in Romans 9:11-13 "before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad" was, according to Romans 9:12 "the elder shall serve the younger". Romans 9:12 reiterates what God told Rebekah in Genesis 25:23 before the twins were born.

you really need to let go of your error concerning this issue ... quit arguing and accept the fact that God told Rebekah "the elder shall serve the younger" and what God had written in Malachi was "Jacob have I loved and Esau have I hated". Romans 9:13 reiterates what was written in Malachi 1:2-3, long after both Jacob and Esau were dead and gone.





The "non-election" refers to the covenant promises God gave to Abraham ... reiterated to Isaac ... reiterated to Jacob.

I am not a partaker of the promises through Jacob or Isaac. The partakers of the promises through Jacob would be the children of Israel ... the Jews.

Gentile believers are partakers of the promises to Abraham through faith in the Lord Jesus Christ as He is the "Seed" to Whom the promises relate. Isaac, Jacob, the children of Israel could be partakers of the promise through lineal descendancy. However, just because someone is a lineal descendant of Jacob, that does not mean they are partakers of the promises. It is only through faith in the Lord Jesus Christ that one becomes a partaker of the promises.





do not agree with you on your understanding of these verses.





I never said "Adam never sinned".

I asked you to provide chapter and verse wherein it is stated "Adam was a sinner/unbeliever so he was a God hater" as you claimed (bold mine):

Journey_man said:​

Whilst there is no specific verse stating that Adam hated God, I noted some verses which reveal that unbelievers hate God. Adam was a sinner/unbeliever so he was a God hater, just as every other unbeliever is.​

fyi ... I do not believe Adam hated God. Did Adam sin? Yes. Was Adam an unbeliever"? No. Did Adam "hate God"? No.

When you sin, does that mean you are an "unbeliever". When you sin, do you "hate God"? ... and if you tell me you never sin, you are deceiving yourself (1 John 1:8).





I never said Adam didn't sin. Scripture is clear that Adam did sin.

Scripture does not, however, state that Adam hated God as you continue to insist. Nor does Scripture indicate that Adam was an unbeliever the whole of his life. I believe Adam and Eve both believed in Messiah promised in Genesis 3:15 ... which is why God made sacrifice for both of them and clothed them with skins to cover the shame of their sin. God's offering was not insufficient to cover their sin.





I know that is what you believe and I believe what is stated in Romans 1:

Romans 1:16-19

16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it [the gospel of Christ] is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.

18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness

The gospel of Christ is the power of God. It is not our believing which brings salvation ... it is the gospel of Christ which is powerful.

Those who suppress the truth in unrighteousness when the gospel is preached do not receive the promised salvation.

.

Your understanding of Galatians 3:16 doesn't line up with the rest of the Bible. You have interpreted the verse in isolation and misapplied it.

Whilst the verse does point to Christ as (the singular seed), this does not exclude believers; rather, all people who have faith are included because they are united to Christ. He is the specific person through whom God's ultimate salvation and blessing comes to His people from every tribe and tongue in the world.

Christ stands as the true representative and head of God's covenant promises. Believers do not receive the promise on their own independent merit.

Anyone who belongs to Christ by faith is also counted as Abraham's seed and an heir to the promise. The promise flows from Christ to His entire body of elect believers, bridging Jews and Gentiles together under one spiritual head.

I believe we have given Romans 9:11-13 enough time and we are no closer to a consensus, then when we begun. So I think we should leave it be.

As for your view regarding Adam, there are some inconsistencies there. You claim Adam sinned but he wasn't a sinner, I don't know how many times a sinner needs to sin before you accept them as a sinner. you seem to be suggesting that Adam sinned only once for a few seconds and then went back to being perfectly sinless again.

If you don't believe that Adam sinned and became a fallen sinner, then you should provide verses of the Bible that support your view. If on the other hand you believe what Gods Word reveals, "the all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God". May I remind you that Adam is included in the "all have sinned".
The Bible also reveals that sinners naturally hate God.

Romans 8:7: States that the "mind set on the flesh is hostile to God," as it refuses to submit to God's law.

Romans 1:30: Mentions that unrighteous individuals are actively "haters of God" (or hateful to God, depending on the translation/interpretation).

Ephesians 2:1–3: Describes fallen humans as being "dead in trespasses and sins" and naturally "children of wrath," lacking any native inclination toward spiritual good.

Sin affects every part of human nature, including the will and intellect, meaning fallen people do not seek God on their own (Romans 3:10–11).
The unregenerate heart loves sin and resists absolute sovereign authority, treating God as an enemy until changed by grace.
Because man naturally hates and resists God, salvation requires a sovereign, supernatural work of regeneration (new birth) by the Holy Spirit to change the heart before a sinner can love God.

 

[ATG]

You have a Sunday School level understanding of the story. You should ask more questions. Assuming you believe God holds the keys to the life and death of a man, why would God keep Adam around after he sinned? Why not just end him and Woman and start over? Since He is God, He has no obligation to prolong Adam's life nor the life of Woman. Yet, Adam remained for 930 years.

2Pe 3:8
But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

Almost a thousand years, but still only as one day with the Lord.

Sunday School level Scripture.

 

[Aaron56]

2Pe 3:8
But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

Almost a thousand years, but still only as one day with the Lord.

Sunday School level Scripture.

"..Adam, the son of God."

Maybe it's Baptist influence that causes people to throw Adam out with the bathwater.

 

[ATG]

"..Adam, the son of God."

Maybe it's Baptist influence that causes people to throw Adam out with the bathwater.

God sure didn't. He gave Adam almost a thousand years to repent. Scripture never says if he did or not. Sunday School stuff.

Luk 3:38
Adam, which was the son of God.

If we must change Scripture to believe something, we must be believing something other than Scripture.

Adam was the son of God by creation in His image, the same as all men and women being children of God from birth.

Act 17:29
Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device.

But since we have all sinned against our Father's image, and made ourselves children of disobedience, then we must all repent of our transgressions, to again become sons as created:

Jhn 3:3
Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

2Co 5:17
Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new. And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ,

Whether Adam repented of his own transgression, is not written in Scripture. We only know that he didn't repent in the garden, before being driven away from eating the tree of life, and only living for 930 years on earth.

And of course if Adam did repent, then the longsuffering of God was not in vain. Sunday School stuff.

 

[Aaron56]

God sure didn't. He gave Adam almost a thousand years to repent. Scripture never says if he did or not. Sunday School stuff.

Luk 3:38
Adam, which was the son of God.

If we must change Scripture to believe something, we must be believing something other than Scripture.

Adam was the son of God by creation in His image, the same as all men and women being children of God from birth.

Act 17:29
Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device.

But since we have all sinned against our Father's image, and made ourselves children of disobedience, then we must all repent of our transgressions, to again become sons as created:

Jhn 3:3
Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

2Co 5:17
Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new. And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ,

Whether Adam repented of his own transgression, is not written in Scripture. We only know that he didn't repent in the garden, before being driven away from eating the tree of life, and only living for 930 years on earth.

And of course if Adam did repent, then the longsuffering of God was not in vain. Sunday School Stuff.

Yeah. Pulling unrelated scripture to prove your point is not working for you. Maybe it’s the Presbyterians? Some of them do that.

If you ask, I’ll show you how to find the truth.

 

[NOV25]

There is only one religion with a monergistic soteriology—true Christianity (aka Calvinism)

 

[reneweddaybyday]

Your understanding of Galatians 3:16 doesn't line up with the rest of the Bible. You have interpreted the verse in isolation and misapplied it.

Whilst the verse does point to Christ as (the singular seed), this does not exclude believers; rather, all people who have faith are included because they are united to Christ. He is the specific person through whom God's ultimate salvation and blessing comes to His people from every tribe and tongue in the world.

Christ stands as the true representative and head of God's covenant promises. Believers do not receive the promise on their own independent merit.

Anyone who belongs to Christ by faith is also counted as Abraham's seed and an heir to the promise. The promise flows from Christ to His entire body of elect believers, bridging Jews and Gentiles together under one spiritual head.

right ... I did point out that "God has graciously included believers as joint-heirs with Christ" ... however, my understanding is the Lord Jesus Christ is the heir of the promises and we are joint-heirs with Him. And this is just another example of God's over-abounding grace.

I believe we have given Romans 9:11-13 enough time and we are no closer to a consensus, then when we begun. So I think we should leave it be.

okey-dokey ... however, in the future, I may not remember and I may make a comment if you bring up that you believe God said he hated Esau before Esau was born.

As for your view regarding Adam, there are some inconsistencies there. You claim Adam sinned but he wasn't a sinner, I don't know how many times a sinner needs to sin before you accept them as a sinner. you seem to be suggesting that Adam sinned only once for a few seconds and then went back to being perfectly sinless again.

I never said what you claim.

here is what I said:

reneweddaybyday said:​

I never said Adam didn't sin. Scripture is clear that Adam did sin.​

​

Scripture does not, however, state that Adam hated God as you continue to insist. Nor does Scripture indicate that Adam was an unbeliever the whole of his life. I believe Adam and Eve both believed in Messiah promised in Genesis 3:15 ... which is why God made sacrifice for both of them and clothed them with skins to cover the shame of their sin. God's offering was not insufficient to cover their sin.​

I agree Adam sinned.

I do not agree Adam hated God.

I do not agree Adam was an unbeliever the whole of his life.

If you don't believe that Adam sinned and became a fallen sinner, then you should provide verses of the Bible that support your view.

Again, I never stated what you claim.

If on the other hand you believe what Gods Word reveals, "the all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God". May I remind you that Adam is included in the "all have sinned".
The Bible also reveals that sinners naturally hate God.

You are a believer. Do you believe that every time you sin that means you hate God ... or that you are no longer a believer?

God tells us "if we confess our sins He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness" (1 John 1:9).

And don't tell me you never sin because if you believe that, you deceive yourself (1 John 1:8).

and just fyi ... "sin" is translated from the Greek word hamartia which means to miss the mark, to miss or wander from the path of uprightness and honor ... and Scripture also tells us "whatsoever is not of faith is sin".

Romans 8:7: States that the "mind set on the flesh is hostile to God," as it refuses to submit to God's law.

Have you ever heard of "carnal Christians"? They are believers in the Lord Jesus Christ ... i.e. born again ... but they are still maturing in Christ. They are "babes in Christ" and sometimes their behavior appears the same as natural man. That does not mean they are not born again believers. It just means they are still maturing in Christ. They are believers who sometimes stumble ... they are drawn away from their safe haven in the Lord Jesus Christ. Once a believer realizes he or she has strayed, all he or she needs to do is turn their heart back to the Lord, confess their sin, and God will cleanse them from all unrighteousness. That's His promise and He will keep His promise.

Romans 1:30: Mentions that unrighteous individuals are actively "haters of God" (or hateful to God, depending on the translation/interpretation).

Do you believe those mentioned in Romans 1:30 are born actively hating God?

Romans 1:16-17 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it [the gospel of Christ] is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. For therein [the gospel of Christ] is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.

Then Romans 1:18-32 spell out what occurs within those who continue to suppress the truth in unrighteousness ...

Rom 1:18 — the wrath of God is revealed against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness. (The words hold the truth in unrighteousness mean that the truth is restrained or suppressed in unrighteousness. It is not God Who restrains ... it is the person who suppresses the truth that restrains ... which is why they are without excuse).

Rom 1:19-21 — God reveals Himself in creation and people turn from Him and are not thankful. They become vain in their imaginations and the foolish heart becomes darkened.

Rom 1:22-24 — because the heart is darkened, they change the glory of God into an image (idolatry).

They are given up to uncleannesss through the lusts of their own hearts.

Rom 1:24-26 — because they are given up to uncleanness, they dishonor their bodies. The truth of God is changed into a lie and creation is worshipped more than the Creator.

They are given up to vile affections and the natural is changed into that which is against nature.

Rom 1:27-28 — because they are given up to vile affections, they burn in their lust and work that which is unseemly which results in receiving the adequate compensation for their error.

They are given over to a reprobate mind.

Rom 1:29-32 — actions of those with a reprobate mind. They know the judgment of God and continue in their foolishness and also have pleasure in those who do the same.

People are not born with a reprobate mind. They are allowed to step further and further from God and at certain points, God releases them to their foolishness. It is a downward spiral from their foolish heart was darkened (Rom 1:21) to God gave them over to a reprobate mind (Rom 1:28). It does not happen overnight. It is a progression over time.

Ephesians 2:1–3: Describes fallen humans as being "dead in trespasses and sins" and naturally "children of wrath," lacking any native inclination toward spiritual good.

Ephesians 1:3 tells us we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

Sin affects every part of human nature, including the will and intellect, meaning fallen people do not seek God on their own (Romans 3:10–11).

I have never claimed that "fallen people" "seek God on their own". I have always maintained that God first reaches out to mankind ...

those who suppress the truth in righteousness when God reaches out receive the consequence of rejecting.

those who do not suppress the truth in righteousness when God reaches out receive the blessing of not having rejected.

The unregenerate heart loves sin and resists absolute sovereign authority, treating God as an enemy until changed by grace.
Because man naturally hates and resists God, salvation requires a sovereign, supernatural work of regeneration (new birth) by the Holy Spirit to change the heart before a sinner can love God.

Agree God graciously reaches out ... do not agree the automatic response of every single person is to suppress the truth in unrighteousness.

.

 

[ATG]

Yeah. Pulling unrelated scripture to prove your point is not working for you. Maybe it’s the Presbyterians? Some of them do that.

If you ask, I’ll show you how to find the truth.

First show how to correct teaching of Scripture properly, rather than just say so. Then we can look at your own teaching from Scripture.

Of course, you'll need to stop changing Scripture in the first place. Sunday Schoolers know that much.

 

[Journey_man]

right ... I did point out that "God has graciously included believers as joint-heirs with Christ" ... however, my understanding is the Lord Jesus Christ is the heir of the promises and we are joint-heirs with Him. And this is just another example of God's over-abounding grace.





okey-dokey ... however, in the future, I may not remember and I may make a comment if you bring up that you believe God said he hated Esau before Esau was born.





I never said what you claim.

here is what I said:

reneweddaybyday said:​

I never said Adam didn't sin. Scripture is clear that Adam did sin.​

​

Scripture does not, however, state that Adam hated God as you continue to insist. Nor does Scripture indicate that Adam was an unbeliever the whole of his life. I believe Adam and Eve both believed in Messiah promised in Genesis 3:15 ... which is why God made sacrifice for both of them and clothed them with skins to cover the shame of their sin. God's offering was not insufficient to cover their sin.​

I agree Adam sinned.

I do not agree Adam hated God.

I do not agree Adam was an unbeliever the whole of his life.





Again, I never stated what you claim.





You are a believer. Do you believe that every time you sin that means you hate God ... or that you are no longer a believer?

God tells us "if we confess our sins He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness" (1 John 1:9).

And don't tell me you never sin because if you believe that, you deceive yourself (1 John 1:8).

and just fyi ... "sin" is translated from the Greek word hamartia which means to miss the mark, to miss or wander from the path of uprightness and honor ... and Scripture also tells us "whatsoever is not of faith is sin".





Have you ever heard of "carnal Christians"? They are believers in the Lord Jesus Christ ... i.e. born again ... but they are still maturing in Christ. They are "babes in Christ" and sometimes their behavior appears the same as natural man. That does not mean they are not born again believers. It just means they are still maturing in Christ. They are believers who sometimes stumble ... they are drawn away from their safe haven in the Lord Jesus Christ. Once a believer realizes he or she has strayed, all he or she needs to do is turn their heart back to the Lord, confess their sin, and God will cleanse them from all unrighteousness. That's His promise and He will keep His promise.





Do you believe those mentioned in Romans 1:30 are born actively hating God?

Romans 1:16-17 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it [the gospel of Christ] is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. For therein [the gospel of Christ] is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.

Then Romans 1:18-32 spell out what occurs within those who continue to suppress the truth in unrighteousness ...

Rom 1:18 — the wrath of God is revealed against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness. (The words hold the truth in unrighteousness mean that the truth is restrained or suppressed in unrighteousness. It is not God Who restrains ... it is the person who suppresses the truth that restrains ... which is why they are without excuse).

Rom 1:19-21 — God reveals Himself in creation and people turn from Him and are not thankful. They become vain in their imaginations and the foolish heart becomes darkened.

Rom 1:22-24 — because the heart is darkened, they change the glory of God into an image (idolatry).

They are given up to uncleannesss through the lusts of their own hearts.

Rom 1:24-26 — because they are given up to uncleanness, they dishonor their bodies. The truth of God is changed into a lie and creation is worshipped more than the Creator.

They are given up to vile affections and the natural is changed into that which is against nature.

Rom 1:27-28 — because they are given up to vile affections, they burn in their lust and work that which is unseemly which results in receiving the adequate compensation for their error.

They are given over to a reprobate mind.

Rom 1:29-32 — actions of those with a reprobate mind. They know the judgment of God and continue in their foolishness and also have pleasure in those who do the same.

People are not born with a reprobate mind. They are allowed to step further and further from God and at certain points, God releases them to their foolishness. It is a downward spiral from their foolish heart was darkened (Rom 1:21) to God gave them over to a reprobate mind (Rom 1:28). It does not happen overnight. It is a progression over time.





Ephesians 1:3 tells us we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.





I have never claimed that "fallen people" "seek God on their own". I have always maintained that God first reaches out to mankind ...

those who suppress the truth in righteousness when God reaches out receive the consequence of rejecting.

those who do not suppress the truth in righteousness when God reaches out receive the blessing of not having rejected.





Agree God graciously reaches out ... do not agree the automatic response of every single person is to suppress the truth in unrighteousness.

.

There is not enough space to respond to every one of your views here, so I'll just deal with a few.

Before the fall, God made an agreement with Adam in the Garden of Eden. God required Adam to give perfect personal obedience, specifically commanding him not to eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. If Adam obeyed, he would have secured eternal life for himself and his posterity. But he disobeyed, and the penalty was death.

Adam in his fallen state, was at war with God. Romans 8:7 states that "the mind set on the flesh is hostile to God." Because Adam's nature became thoroughly corrupted ("in the flesh") upon his disobedience, his natural inclination shifted from loving God supremely to self-love and rebellion.

When confronted by God, Adam blamed both Eve and God Himself ("the woman whom you gave to be with me"). This self-justification showed a corrupted heart that refused to humbly repent. Adam's nature was corrupted, and he possessed no innate moral ability, free will, or residual power to turn back to God on his own.

After the fall, God approached Adam with special/saving grace, distinct from the mere common grace that restrains societal evil and sustains human life generally. It was unmerited, directed specifically by God's sovereign election, and rooted entirely in the promised work of Jesus Christ (the "second Adam").

Adam was dead in his sin when God approached him.

 

[Aaron56]

The Bible reveals that God spared Adam and Eve's physical lives because He immediately instituted the Covenant of Grace and pointed forward to a substitutionary atonement.

In Genesis 3:15 God delivered the first gospel promise, declaring that the "seed of the woman" would crush the serpent's head. God spared them to fulfill this eternal decree of redemption.

In Genesis 3:21 God clothed them with animal skins. By doing so, an innocent life (an animal) had to die to shed blood and cover the physical and spiritual shame of the guilty, foreshadowing Jesus Christ.

When God warned "in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die" (Genesis 2:17), they died spiritually—severing their communion with God—even though physical death and the final execution of the death penalty were delayed and ultimately transferred to Christ as their Federal Head.

God chose to display not only His holy justice but the riches of His mercy. By saving rebels, God magnifies His grace through the cross rather than terminating the human race on day one.

The legal basis for a "covenant of grace" was the fact that "the Lamb was slain from the foundation of the world." God didn't just "decide" to be gracious: the penalty for Adam's sin had been paid for in eternity so the covenant of grace could appear in the earth when God decided it could appear in the earth. Of course, it did not appear in its fullness until Jesus died on the cross.

Where does it say "spiritually dying" = no communion with God? God did not suddenly take back His spirit He deposited into Adam; that returns to God upon a man's death. Adam's death was his physical death, which occurred years after he sinned. Presumably, had he not sinned, Adam would have lived forever.

The reason God preserved humans was because He had already paid the penalty for man's sins "from the foundation of the world". These things were hidden in Himself until revealed in creation. God doesn't behave arbitrarily. There is always a foundation laid before God builds.

 

[Aaron56]

First show how to correct teaching of Scripture properly, rather than just say so. Then we can look at your own teaching from Scripture.

Of course, you'll need to stop changing Scripture in the first place. Sunday Schoolers know that much.

Ha! I just realized you're not even the poster I replied to: @Journey_man

I'm not sure how you came into the discussion.

However, perhaps you can show me where this is stated in scripture: "because Esau had inherited Adam's hatred of God". This is something Journey_man wrote. Where does it say Adam hated God? Certainly he was afraid of God, because he hid from Him. But that was because Adam's view had moved from being a spirit clothed in flesh - completely compatible with God - to a man of flesh God could destroy.

Consider also that "righteous Abel" came out of both Adam and Eve after the fall. If man and woman were completely corrupt, how could a righteous man come from their union? And, here's the big one, why not simply wipe out Adam and Woman and start over? If the sentence of death was certain because of sin, then just wipe the board and make a new man and woman. I mean, how cheap is dirt?

 

[reneweddaybyday]

Adam in his fallen state, was at war with God. Romans 8:7 states that "the mind set on the flesh is hostile to God."

interesting that you conclude only Adam "was at war with God" because "the mind set on the flesh is hostile to God"

Genesis 3:6, And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat ...

Eve "saw that the tree was good for food" ... that it was "pleasant to the eyes" ... and a "tree to be desired to make one wise" ... that is not considered "the mind set on the flesh"? ... only Adam was "at war with God" ... only Adam's mind was "set on the flesh" and "hostile to God"?

Adam was dead in his sin when God approached him.

Both Adam and Eve sinned in eating from the tree of knowledge of good and evil.

In Genesis 3:14-15 God judged the serpent (satan) and gave promise of the Seed of the woman Who would bruise the head of the serpent and the serpent would bruise the heal of the Seed.

I believe Adam and Eve were present when God judged the serpent and I believe both Adam and Eve believed the promise of God.

I believe God made sacrifice of an animal to provide skins for Adam and Eve to cover their shame in having sinned in eating of the tree because they both believed the promise of the coming One. Otherwise, God would have left them in their own fig-leaf covering. I consider the coats of skins to be "garments of salvation" (Isaiah 61:10) for both Adam and Eve.

I also believe Adam and Eve taught their children about sacrifice and offering ... which is why "in process of time" both Cain and Abel brought sacrifice to God (Genesis 4:3-4). The words "in process of time" refer to a specific time. It was not some random event in which both coincidentally brought their sacrifices at the same time. Who taught them about sacrifices?

Both Adam and Eve taught their children.

.

 

[decipher]

I don't understand the choices given in this poll. All three are precisely the same:

"Which are you? Please vote only once and simply add 1 to the current total for what you choose.​

• Monergist Total = 0 Synergist Total= 0
• Monergist Total = 0 Synergist Total = 0
• Monergist Total = 0 Synergist Total = 0"

Those look like the current results of the poll rather than the choices. Surely the choices should be something like:

Monergist

Synergist

Other

What could "other" be? Besides, my computer was messing up and I was unable to erase two of the three "monergist total=0 synergist total=0". It's amazing that some people think it's a multiple choice question. So let's start again with me. Monergist Total= 1

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

If a person rejects both Calvinism and Arminianism, then they typically hold to a form of synergism (salvation dependent on human cooperation) or a non-Reformed evangelicalism (such as Provisionism, traditional Wesleyanism, or general nondenominationalism).

Calvinism and Arminianism are the two primary historical systems defining how divine grace and human will interact, meaning a rejection of both places someone in a philosophically inconsistent middle ground.

Provisionism emphasizes that Christ died for everyone equally, God desires all to be saved without exception, and humans retain the absolute libertarian ability to accept or resist grace without prior unilateral regeneration. Lay Christians often reject the "labels" of Calvinism and Arminianism while still practically operating on Arminian assumptions—believing human choice is the ultimate deciding factor in salvation.

Salvation must either be initiated and secured unconditionally by God (Calvinism) or left up to the final decision of human free will (Arminianism). Stepping outside these systems usually means either sliding into human autonomy (making man the ultimate savior of his own soul) or misrepresenting God's holy character by misconstruing scriptural election.

There is no third option between monergism and synergism regarding the initial new birth or regeneration. Salvation's starting point is strictly monergistic—God works alone to make a spiritually dead sinner alive. Human will contributes nothing to this initial act.

no bias here

Actually there was no calvin or arminian belief by name until fter the reformation. Thay are two beliefs of many who came as a result of that reformation.

The scripture defines how grace interacts.. While some "isms" may try to explain it. we should not look to an ISM to get our doctrines..

Monergism according to the calvinist view is in error. They have God making a person alive while still dead in sin.

Synergism is also in error. As we can not earn salvation so we can not lose salvation.

The truth is in the middle. we have been saved by grace through faith

God does not force us to recieve it, But he will not keep us from being able to accept it.

we must recieve it in faith

that is no cooperating. That is a person on his knees like the tax collector crying out to God in faith for Gods mercy and forgiveness.

It is through that faith he is saved (born again)

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

I am still struggling to work out which option to tick, as all three appear to be exactly the same, and include both monergism and synergism:

• Monergist Total = 0 Synergist Total= 0
• Monergist Total = 0 Synergist Total = 0
• Monergist Total = 0 Synergist Total = 0

Has anybody actually cast a vote in this poll? If so, how did you work out which option to tick, as all three are identical?

looks like 2 people voted..lol

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

God sure didn't. He gave Adam almost a thousand years to repent. Scripture never says if he did or not. Sunday School stuff.

Luk 3:38
Adam, which was the son of God.

If we must change Scripture to believe something, we must be believing something other than Scripture.

Adam was the son of God by creation in His image, the same as all men and women being children of God from birth.

Act 17:29
Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device.

But since we have all sinned against our Father's image, and made ourselves children of disobedience, then we must all repent of our transgressions, to again become sons as created:

Jhn 3:3
Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

2Co 5:17
Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new. And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ,

Whether Adam repented of his own transgression, is not written in Scripture. We only know that he didn't repent in the garden, before being driven away from eating the tree of life, and only living for 930 years on earth.

And of course if Adam did repent, then the longsuffering of God was not in vain. Sunday School stuff.

Adam showed he had faith by allowing God to clothe him, as did his wife.

 

[DavidLamb]

What could "other" be? Besides, my computer was messing up and I was unable to erase two of the three "monergist total=0 synergist total=0". It's amazing that some people think it's a multiple choice question. So let's start again with me. Monergist Total= 1

Whether it is multiple choice or not, that makes no difference to the fact that all 3 choices are exactly identical. Each choice has exactly the same wording:

"Monergist Total = 0 Synergist Total = 0"

So if somebody wants to vote for "Monergist" which one do they choose? Surely the choices should be:

1.Monergist

2. Synergist

3. (Whatever you wanted the third choice to be).

I haven't voted, simply because all the "choices" have the same wording, so it is not clear which one is which.

 

[Journey_man]

The legal basis for a "covenant of grace" was the fact that "the Lamb was slain from the foundation of the world." God didn't just "decide" to be gracious: the penalty for Adam's sin had been paid for in eternity so the covenant of grace could appear in the earth when God decided it could appear in the earth. Of course, it did not appear in its fullness until Jesus died on the cross.

Where does it say "spiritually dying" = no communion with God? God did not suddenly take back His spirit He deposited into Adam; that returns to God upon a man's death. Adam's death was his physical death, which occurred years after he sinned. Presumably, had he not sinned, Adam would have lived forever.

The reason God preserved humans was because He had already paid the penalty for man's sins "from the foundation of the world". These things were hidden in Himself until revealed in creation. God doesn't behave arbitrarily. There is always a foundation laid before God builds.

Jesus paid for the sins of His elect on the cross, not in eternity past as you suggest.

In eternity past, God the Father chose (elected) a specific people to save within the pactum salutis (the Covenant of Redemption). The Trinity planned the rescue, but no actual payment, legal substitution, or suffering occurred before history began.

Eternity past involved the design and intention to save, whereas the cross involved the actual execution and accomplishment of that salvation. The actual legal satisfaction, propitiation, and bearing of divine wrath happened exclusively during the physical and spiritual suffering of Christ on the cross.

When Jesus cried out, "It is finished" (tetelestai), meaning the actual debt was paid in full in linear time at Calvary, securing definite redemption for the elect. While the payment was accomplished historically on the cross, it is experientially applied to individual believers in time by the Holy Spirit through faith.

Your view that Adam didn't die (spiritually or bodily) in the day he sinned, contradicts what Gods word reveals about the matter.

 

[Journey_man]

interesting that you conclude only Adam "was at war with God" because "the mind set on the flesh is hostile to God"

Genesis 3:6, And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat ...

Eve "saw that the tree was good for food" ... that it was "pleasant to the eyes" ... and a "tree to be desired to make one wise" ... that is not considered "the mind set on the flesh"? ... only Adam was "at war with God" ... only Adam's mind was "set on the flesh" and "hostile to God"?





Both Adam and Eve sinned in eating from the tree of knowledge of good and evil.

In Genesis 3:14-15 God judged the serpent (satan) and gave promise of the Seed of the woman Who would bruise the head of the serpent and the serpent would bruise the heal of the Seed.

I believe Adam and Eve were present when God judged the serpent and I believe both Adam and Eve believed the promise of God.

I believe God made sacrifice of an animal to provide skins for Adam and Eve to cover their shame in having sinned in eating of the tree because they both believed the promise of the coming One. Otherwise, God would have left them in their own fig-leaf covering. I consider the coats of skins to be "garments of salvation" (Isaiah 61:10) for both Adam and Eve.

I also believe Adam and Eve taught their children about sacrifice and offering ... which is why "in process of time" both Cain and Abel brought sacrifice to God (Genesis 4:3-4). The words "in process of time" refer to a specific time. It was not some random event in which both coincidentally brought their sacrifices at the same time. Who taught them about sacrifices?

Both Adam and Eve taught their children.

.

The reason we rarely mention Eve, is because she is not the Federal Head of Mankind. Adam is our Federal Head, Eve is not his equal because she came from Adam. God didn't approach Eve to ask her what is this you have done.

The Serpent knew He couldn't deceive Adam, so He went after the weaker vessel and deceived her and then caused her to convince Adam. This is not to say that Adam was less guilty of rebellion, but it is to say that He represents Mankind and not Eve. We inherited Adams sin nature, he was a sinner until the day he died. Yes he repented, but he still had to live out his life in his corrupted body.

Adams son did not bare the image of God, in the same way Adam did before it was marred. Genesis 5:3 "And Adam lived one hundred and thirty years, and begot a son in his own likeness, after his image, and named him Seth. The rest of humanity was bares Adams image as well." We are all born dead in our sin".