I knew what he was asking. I am still wondering which option to tick, as the are all identical.
Are you a monergist or a synergist?
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It's kinda like that thermonuclear war game....
You mostly win by not playing.
But Calvinists have a playbook.
If you dont subscribe to Calvinism you are an Armenian no matter what you believe.
The whole concept of both systems being wrong is not something he can contemplate. He just doesn't understand 3-d chess while demanding we play checkers.
But as I keep trying to point out, I am not arguing here for Calvinism or for Arminianism. I am asking a question about the purely practical matter of how anybody can vote meaningfully in a poll where all three options given are identical, and all three contain both "monergist" and "synergist."
Oh right!It's because you cant think of a word that rhymes with orange....
Silly silly.
The terms you use here - Calvinism, Arminianism, Reformed Provisionism are anachronistic with respect to the ECF since these theological constructs simply did not exist when the Early Church Fathers were teaching and preaching. In fact, until Augustine came in the Fifth Century, no one taught total unilateral determinism of every physical event in the universe together with every thought emotion, desire and choice of mankind.
If we had to label them we would have to call both the Eastern (Orthodox) division of Christendom and Western (Roman Catholic) divisions syngergistic since they both believed humanity had to respond to God's offer of salvation. The Western Roman Catholic Church as they continued following Augustinian determinism believed more and more like him. The Reformers being avid devotees of Augustine took his teachings even further.
When I have listened to Leighten Flowers teaching on what he calls "Provisionism" and it seems to me he is attempting to preserve free will in salvation while guarding the doctrine of OSAS. By contrast, Wesley who knew the ECF writings very well used what they taught to argue that while salvation has been provided for all mankind and ontained by faith the individual must continues walking in the faith until the very end of their lives to inherit full and final eternal life in the world to come.
This, I believe, is exactly what the ECF taught and it agrees perfectly with what the Apostles taught.
24 As for you, let what you have heard from the beginning remain in you. If it does, you will also remain in the Son and in the Father. 25 And this is the promise that He Himself made to us: eternal life.…
(1 John 2:24-25)
If we continue believing the message of the Gospel we will continue walking by faith to abide and we will remain in the Father and Son and this ongoing union with Him is itself the definition of eternal life.
When you call Calvinism and Arminianism the two primary historical systems defining how divine grace and human will interact. You create a false dichotomy that did not apply to those who lived before Calvin and Arminius. You believe this dichotomy is universal and that it is a template by which we can measure soteriological truths.
When you take the position that salvation must be either initiated and secured unconditionally by God or left totally up to us you have assumed a false dichotomy. The Apostles did not say securing salvation was UNCONDITIONAL. They only said it could not be EARNED by the performance of MERITORIOUS WORKS. While Repentance and Faith are not meritorious but they are the necessary for the preparation of the soil to receive the seed of life.
Before a person would be willing to submit to such radical treatments as chemotherapy and radiation they first have to know they are in desperate need of treatment and that the only alternative is death. Knowledge of our sinful state is the result of CONVICTION which produces godly sorrow which leads to repentance. Only when we fully know our desperate condition will we reach out for the savior.
After Paul had tried over and over to be better he finally gave up and cried out: 24 What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body of death?
(Romans 7:24)
There is no third option between monergism and synergism regarding the initial new birth or regeneration? Isn't there? What I have proposed is synergistic but but it is not about our earning salvation since none of us deserves it. However, to say the human will contributes nothing to this initial act is also untrue. There are conditions we must meet and only the Holy Spirit can bring us to that point. However, we can resist Him. The word itself warns us not to harden our hearts, resist or grieve the Spirit which assumes that we can. Though Israel had been given the deed to the Land and, though God's presence gave them the power to take it, they failed to do so because of their unbelief
1 Timothy 2:3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;
1 Timothy 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
Revelation 22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.
God wants all people to be saved and since all people will not be saved then we have a choice in our salvation.
Matthew 22:13 Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast him into outer darkness; there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
Matthew 22:14 For many are called, but few are chosen.
1 Corinthians 1:26 For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called.
God does the calling and choosing on earth so we have a choice in our salvation.
John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
1 Corinthians 12:3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.
Romans 7:18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
When God calls a person according to their heart condition He will work in their life to get them to the truth.
But they have to choose to accept the truth for God's kingdom is love and not robotic love where they do not have a choice.
But they would of not been able to accept the truth if God did not intervene in their life for the flesh being alone would not accept it.
So God gets the glory for without Him no person would accept the truth.
Matthew 13:20 But he that received the seed into stony places, the same is he that heareth the word, and anon with joy receiveth it;
Matthew 13:21 Yet hath he not root in himself, but dureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended.
Matthew 13:22 He also that received seed among the thorns is he that heareth the word; and the care of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, choke the word, and he becometh unfruitful.
2 Timothy 3:4 lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God;
2 Timothy 3:5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away
2 Timothy 3:7 Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.
Not everybody accepts the truth but falls short because they will not let go of the flesh so they do not obtain salvation.
Galatians 5:16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.
Galatians 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
Galatians 5:23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.
Galatians 5:24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.
1 Corinthians 10:13 There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.
Romans 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
If a person allows the Spirit to lead them then they are not of the flesh and have the power to be Christlike.
Hebrews 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
Hebrews 10:27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
If they sin they should repent and move forward in the Spirit.
If they hold on to sin then the blood of Christ cannot wash it away.
Romans 11:20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
Romans 11:21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
Romans 11:22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
2 Peter 2:20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
2 Peter 2:21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.
If they do not continue in the goodness of God they will be cut off like the disobedient Hebrews.
If there is a warning then a person can fall if they are not Christlike for that is of the flesh and not the Spirit.
Romans 4:17 (As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were.
God calls things that have not happened yet as though they already happened for if it is a plan of Him to happen in the future it is the same as if it happened in the beginning for it will surely come to pass with no hindrance.
Revelation 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
Revelation 3:14 And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God.
The saints predestined to salvation means God had the plan of salvation to give to mankind from the foundation of the world.
But this salvation is to whoever wants it for God wants all people to be saved and not willing that any should perish.
1 Timothy 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
Revelation 22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.
God wants all people to be saved and since all people will not be saved then we have a choice in our salvation.
Matthew 22:13 Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast him into outer darkness; there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
Matthew 22:14 For many are called, but few are chosen.
1 Corinthians 1:26 For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called.
God does the calling and choosing on earth so we have a choice in our salvation.
John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
1 Corinthians 12:3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.
Romans 7:18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
When God calls a person according to their heart condition He will work in their life to get them to the truth.
But they have to choose to accept the truth for God's kingdom is love and not robotic love where they do not have a choice.
But they would of not been able to accept the truth if God did not intervene in their life for the flesh being alone would not accept it.
So God gets the glory for without Him no person would accept the truth.
Matthew 13:20 But he that received the seed into stony places, the same is he that heareth the word, and anon with joy receiveth it;
Matthew 13:21 Yet hath he not root in himself, but dureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended.
Matthew 13:22 He also that received seed among the thorns is he that heareth the word; and the care of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, choke the word, and he becometh unfruitful.
2 Timothy 3:4 lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God;
2 Timothy 3:5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away
2 Timothy 3:7 Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.
Not everybody accepts the truth but falls short because they will not let go of the flesh so they do not obtain salvation.
Galatians 5:16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.
Galatians 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
Galatians 5:23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.
Galatians 5:24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.
1 Corinthians 10:13 There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.
Romans 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
If a person allows the Spirit to lead them then they are not of the flesh and have the power to be Christlike.
Hebrews 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
Hebrews 10:27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
If they sin they should repent and move forward in the Spirit.
If they hold on to sin then the blood of Christ cannot wash it away.
Romans 11:20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
Romans 11:21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
Romans 11:22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
2 Peter 2:20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
2 Peter 2:21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.
If they do not continue in the goodness of God they will be cut off like the disobedient Hebrews.
If there is a warning then a person can fall if they are not Christlike for that is of the flesh and not the Spirit.
Romans 4:17 (As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were.
God calls things that have not happened yet as though they already happened for if it is a plan of Him to happen in the future it is the same as if it happened in the beginning for it will surely come to pass with no hindrance.
Revelation 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
Revelation 3:14 And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God.
The saints predestined to salvation means God had the plan of salvation to give to mankind from the foundation of the world.
But this salvation is to whoever wants it for God wants all people to be saved and not willing that any should perish.
Yes they did but by different terms and put together in a slightly different fashion. And if you understand more about the anthropology of the Ancient Near East it becomes more clear that a study in John's Gospel will include this very subject.
When the Apostles asked "Who Sinned to cause this man to be born blind?" The question referred to either corporate sin or individual sin causing the disability....as every physical defect was believed to be a result of sin. Those with defects were believed to be "born of sin". IE cursed at birth.
The question remained though as to whether the parents had some sort of sin in their lives or possibly grandparents...maybe as far back as 4 generations back there was some unrepentant or unforgiven sin.
OR
Sins of the whole community caused the infirmity to be borne by the whole community. (Corporate sin that caused God to lift his hand of protection from this person)
Which....
If this line of logic is played out....why choose this person to be born Jewish and this other person to be borne Greek....and thereby certainly condemning certain people to Hell and granting others the reward of Heaven.
What basis is God using to make such determinations? They argued, speculated, and fought over religiously.
(Very very similar to the concepts of irresistible grace and unconditional election)
So where John Calvin and Jacob Arminius had not been borne yet....this argument was old by the time Jesus was born.
In the Middle East at the time of Jesus three sects of Judaism existed: the Sadducees who denied any interference in human affairs on the part of God. On the opposite side were the Essenes who ascribed everything that happened to divine predestination. According to Josephus, the Pharisees held a the more nuanced view that, while everything is not are divinely predestined, some events are while others depend upon human choices. We have to allow for this because God often gave people choices - like when He told Moses:
9 “I have seen this people, and they are indeed a stiff-necked people. 10 Now leave Me alone, so that My anger may burn against them and consume them. Then I will make you into a great nation.” 11But Moses sought the favor of the LORD his God, saying, “O LORD, why does Your anger burn against Your people, whom You brought out of the land of Egypt with great power and a mighty hand?…(Exodus 32:9-11)
I do not think God was playing games when He said this - which would have been deceptive. At that moment, God really was ready to destroy them and would have but he left it up to Moses.
However, God Himself tells us (at least three times in the scripture) that He does not judge children for the sins of their fathers.
any more than he holds parents to be guilty for the sins committed by their children. Augustine is the one who brought into the idea of imputed guilt that makes all of Adam's descendents guilty.
In case you did not notice.....
I'm not debating the merits or demerits of a particular theology....
You made a point about the anthropology in the Ancient Near East that was incorrect and I explained in detail how and why that belief was wrong. I'm discussing anthropology...not theology and whether its correct or incorrect.
And yes....sadducees, pharisees, essenes, and several others existed....we kinda gone past this part....we arectalking and discussing anthropology in depth here....you up for it?
What you call anthropology is really more about hamartiology, that is, how God determines what is sinful and how He justly brings brings an unrepentant sinner to judgment While many religions and philosophies assigned guilt according to the actions of their tribal/racial chieftons and kings, God specifically says He DOES NOT hold children to be morally guilty for the sins of their parents nor does he count parents to be morally guilty for sins committed by their children.
The Law of Moses says it this way: “Fathers shall not be put to death for their children, nor children for their fathers; each person shall die for his own [individual] sin”
(Deuteronomy 24:16)
God judges people to be guilty for THEIR OWN sins not for the sins of anyone else:
19 Yet you may ask, ‘Why shouldn’t the son bear the iniquity of his father?’ Since the son has done what is just and right, carefully observing all My statutes, he will surely live. 20 The soul who sins is the one who will die. A son will not bear the iniquity of his father, and a father will not bear the iniquity of his son. The righteousness of the righteous man will fall upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked man will fall upon him.
(Ezekiel 18:19-20)
Jesus disciples' question"who sinned - this man or his parents that he should be born blind?" is very straightforward proposition that
posits direct causality. Jesus' answer is much more nuanced.
He said:
(a). NEITHER the (blind man's) individual/personal sin
(b). NOR the sins of his parents (directly) CAUSED the blind man's impairment
(c). Jesus answer CONTRADICTS the idea of CORPORATE GUILT
(d). God does not hold children to be guilty for their parent's sins nor does He hold parents to be guilty for the sins of the
children is clearly stated in scripture.
You seem to envision God overseeing an assembly line consisting of bodies some of which were Jewish, others, Gentiles. God assigns unborn souls to their respective bodies according to some known criterion. This is very similar to the idea Origin had about the pre-existence of the soul. This way of thinking was subsequently rejected by the Second Council of Constantinople and, since then the Eastern Orthodox Christians and many Protestants simply see Jeremiah 1:5 as a reference to God's foreknowledge. This Ecumenical Council explicitly stated "If anyone asserts the fabulous pre-existence of souls, and shall assert the monstrous restoration which follows from it: let him be anathema."
We cannot reduce the issue to Calvinism versus Arminianism since those views were not formulated until many centuries after the Apostles had died.
I apologize for misunderstanding you. I thought you were attempting to establish a particulat view by comparing it to other systems of theology. What specifically is your point about anthropolgy?
If you believe that a person is saved by "one having made life choices that reflect a value of truth", then you actually agree with the synergistic view.
Ephesians 1:4-5 "Even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love he predestined us for adoption to himself as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will."
romans 9:15-16 "For he says to Moses, 'I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.' So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy."
John 15:16 "You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit..."
Acts 13:48 "...and as many as were appointed to eternal life believed."
2 Thessalonians 2:13 "But we ought always to give thanks to God for you, brothers beloved by the Lord, because God chose you as the firstfruits to be saved, through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth."
2 Timothy 1:9 "[God] who saved us and called us to a holy calling, not because of our works but because of his own purpose and grace, which he gave us in Christ Jesus before the ages began."
God's choice is not conditioned upon anything good or any anticipated choice in the sinner. Because humanity is spiritually dead in sin (Total Depravity), no one would or can choose God first.
Regeneration (the new birth) precedes and enables faith. God initiates salvation unilaterally; human faith is the fruit of election, not its cause. Election is designed to emphasize that salvation belongs entirely to God, eliminating human boasting and directing all praise to His grace.
I'm well aware of what you and billions of others believe. But I'm also aware of the fact that the truth is not dependant on the majority vote to validate it.
Gods Word reveals that many professing Christians don't know the truth, so they will hear the Lord Jesus say; Matthew 7:23 "And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!
The Lord Jesus is the truth, His Sheep know Him and we hear His voice, while the unbelievers cannot hear Him. They have ears but they do not hear.
Matthew 13:14 And in them the prophecy of Isaiah is fulfilled, which says: 'Hearing you will hear and shall not understand, And seeing you will see and not perceive;
15 For the hearts of this people have grown dull. Their ears are hard of hearing, And their eyes they have closed, Lest they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears, Lest they should understand with their hearts and turn, So that I should heal them.'
There are 149,000 Christian Denominations in 2026. Many of these interpret the Bible, in different ways and teach radically opposing doctrines. Many refuse to fellowship with those Denominations that teach a different version of the gospel to theirs.
Many of these claim to be the only ones who poses the truth, so the denominations will never unite or agree on any of the core foundational doctrines.
I get the sense that you're not willing to consider the possibility that your views may not be biblically sound.
Originally it was said that before John Calvin or Jacob Arminius Harmitiology wasn't discussed or debated....
I was trying to explain that this was not true....they extensively debated the subject and the nuances of this subject....
However, they were under the Old Covenant. This meant that they did not and could not reference God or scriptures as glibly and readily as we do today. So...they discussed "who sinned" but it really boiled and distilled into the exact same harmitiology as is commonly discussed today. Just different labels...different parameters.
We haven't "invented" anything new....just recycling old arguments.
Oh no....
More than willing to concede that I have errors in my viewpoints....in fact I will insist that I must have them. I just cant find them. And I'm at a level of study that it's not worth the juice for the squeeze to discover them.
I have relationships that are much more important to nurture than kibble to dig for me to ponder upon.
However....you have hole big enough for a parade to March sideways through but with sufficient ego to believe you dont.
Theres the two main commandments you have yet to demonstrate that you follow....if anything you have proved just the opposite.
And the axiom is true: no one cares what you know if they dont know that you care for them.
Sorry dude but that's where we are at with you at this moment.
Fix that whole "I desire mercy over sacrifice" thingy Jesus was always harping about and then get back to us about your theology.
No one with any spiritual sense would follow your teaching, because your theology is not based on Gods Word. You base your theology on your own private views and you rely on your own wisdom.
Private opinions are like noses, everybody has their own. If you can't correct me with Gods Word or find any faults in what I proclaim, then it reveals that you don't have anything of value to offer.
Ignorance may give you temporal comfort, but the day is fast approaching when it won't be accepted as a valid plea.