Are you a monergist or a synergist?

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Which are you? Please vote only once and simply add 1 to the current total for what you choose.

  • Monergist Total = 0 Synergist Total = 0

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • Total voters
    2
  • Poll closed .
Okay. But when I write a rhetorical sentence, I hope you don't expect me to get your approval in advance. Did you honestly believe I was talking about you personally?

Really? Every Christian in the world has heard the call to choose God. I'm surprised you have never heard the Evangelist call people forward to choose God.
Have you not heard that we do not chose God. we chose salvation?

How can I chose God when I can not even personally know him until after I am saved.

Did the tax collector chose God.. or did he cry out for mercy?
You don't understand the New Testament if you think God's election is fatalistic.
I do not think it is fatalistic. Sadly a calvinist or reformed perspective states it is

Try to pay attention.
First of all, predestination isn't simply ordaining a person's outcome: heaven/hell. It is the ordaining of the entire arc of their story from birth to death.

Therefore, their final state is the logical, historical, narrative outcome of their story arc. Predestination is not fatalistic because it matters what we do, even if what we do has been scripted from the foundation of the earth.
No. if it is scripted in that we will do whatever is scripted. with no choice of our own, it is fatalistic. Fatalism says our destiny is already set in stone. no matter what we do.
Also, and this is important. God doesn't select people; he creates them.
Yes he created people. Everyone..
If a woman needs a pot, she goes to the store to select one from those available at the time based on her criteria. God doesn't select people like that. If God needs a pot he creates one, from scratch, and designs it based on the pot's intended purpose. In the New Testament, Election is NOT the same as selection; it's creation. The saints, the elect are the workmanship of God who crafts them according to his design and purpose.
I will be honest bro. I am not sure where you are comming from.. nor do I think you understand what I am arguing

I am arguing against fatalism, or calvinism, or reformed theology that says God chose some to heaven and some to hell. and no one has any say in where they go.
 
Was Adam a mistake? Of course not.
yes

so when God gives smeone salvation. He does not make a mistake and have to take it back. because the people really did not trust him.. or they would not live up to his expectations. or whatever reason he would have to recieve back his gift.

They are saved forever.
 
I would say man's spirit is quickened which enables it to stop resisting.
but it can ot be quickened, or made alive, while under the penalty of sin.

hence the issue

justification results in quickening, or us being made alive because the sin debt is removed.

not the other way around.
 
do not agree men killed Jesus ... although there are lots of folks who believe man could kill Him.

Matthew 26:47-54

47 And while he yet spake, lo, Judas, one of the twelve, came, and with him a great multitude with swords and staves, from the chief priests and elders of the people.

48 Now he that betrayed him gave them a sign, saying, Whomsoever I shall kiss, that same is he: hold him fast.

49 And forthwith he came to Jesus, and said, Hail, master; and kissed him.

50 And Jesus said unto him, Friend, wherefore art thou come? Then came they, and laid hands on Jesus, and took him.

51 And, behold, one of them which were with Jesus stretched out his hand, and drew his sword, and struck a servant of the high priest's, and smote off his ear.

52 Then said Jesus unto him, Put up again thy sword into his place: for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword.

53 Thinkest thou that I cannot now pray to my Father, and he shall presently give me more than twelve legions of angels?


54 But how then shall the scriptures be fulfilled, that thus it must be?

The Lord Jesus Christ willingly gave up His life ... no one could take it from Him.





God knowing what satan would do and how satan would work is not the same as God "controlling" satan or anyone involved in that fiasco to do what satan or they did.

I do not believe it was God Who was "controlling" those who took the Lord Jesus Christ ... held a mockery of a trial ... offered false witness against Him ... spit on and beat Him ... ridiculed Him telling Him to prophesy "who beat You?" ... mocked Him ... all the horrible things that occurred from the moment He was taken from the garden until the time He uttered "It is finished" ... and even after the utterance because after the resurrection, soldiers were given large sums of money to say that His disciples came by night and took Him away while they slept.





God working all things to His glory is not the same as God "controlling" those who resist to suppress the truth in unrighteousness ... nor does it equal God "controlling" those who do not suppress the truth in unrighteousness.

God said of Adam and Eve after the fall ... at that point mankind knew both good and evil.

natural man has the capacity to know good and does not have to automatically reject good, as some in this thread insist.

And just because a person does not suppress the truth in unrighteousness when someone teaches them the gospel of Christ ... that does not equal some sort of works salvation in which the person can glory as some in this thread insist ... that equals the gospel of Christ which is the power of God unto salvation doing exactly as God promised. God's Word is powerful ... God's Word is life ... God's Word is life-giving.

All glory and all honor are due solely to God.

.
Yes. He willingly gave his life for all of us.

hence essentially, we are all responsible for the death of our savior.
 
We can go to Daniel 7. Who caused the 4 empires to come into existence? The endeavor of men or the activity of God?
God allowed it.

God did not force babylon to over run jersualem and do all the evil it did to the people it conquered.

God not only allowed it. But he punished them after..
 
God told Adam to not eat of the tree because God knew he would surely die if he ate of it. But was the tree the cause of Adam's death, or did it stem from Adam's eating? That is, did the fall happen to man or did the man happen to fall? I'm not asking for answers here, just showing some different directions one might think.
it stemmed from adams temptation. It stemmed from adams lack of faith. It stemed from what some say adams love for his wife.. If she was going to go. he would go with her.

the problem with our thinking, is we think the act is sin. While the act is sin, it resulted from a deeper sin.. by the time you do the act. you have probably sinned many times over
 
I definately got the right guy. Proud, Unwilling to admit when he makes a mistake. and thinks he knows it all..

False accuser of the bretheryn
These are very serious charges, I would be alarmed if any of them were true. But it's quite clear, they're all false. I'm sure you would present the evidence if it existed, but since it doesn't exist you're forced to make up lies.
 
These are very serious charges, I would be alarmed if any of them were true. But it's quite clear, they're all false. I'm sure you would present the evidence if it existed, but since it doesn't exist you're forced to make up lies.
lol.. Keep thinking that.

Those who know know
 
Have no problem with any of that. I, in fact, concede the veracity of all of this. I even concede that all that needs to occur is for man to stop resisting.

Now...how does this transpire? What happens that causes an individual to cease resisting? He is at enmity with God. He is not and cannot be subject to the law of God. He is unrighteous, lacks understanding, and is running from God. He is a deceiver and liar. He is unprofitable and does not good. He curses and murders. His ways are destruction and misery. He knows nothing of peace and has no fear of God. How does this individual go from this estate to ceasing to resist God?

Souls may be led to believe in God by considering four types of evidence supporting rational belief in God: the unique universe, theocentric human history, existential need and moral conscience.
Current scientific theory states that the universe began with a “bang”, when a marble of matter or a singularity of energy suddenly exploded, and that it will end with a “whimper” when the stars eventually fade to darkness. This unique universe theory is compatible or consistent with belief in a God who created the universe “ex nihilo”, who sustains it by His power, and who will judge its moral agents at the end of time.
Current knowledge of world history suggests that humanity descended from one genetic source and evolved into various cultures. Throughout history humanity has perceived deity to be the ground of meaning and morality. Theocentric history reached its apex or spiritual climax with the NT teaching that there is one almighty and all-loving God, who desires all humanity to live in harmony on earth and also in heaven, and who allows humanity to experience earthly existence including pain and disappointment (KOTH) for the purpose of teaching them their need for Him (cf. Heb. 12:10).
Current existential reality indicates that mortals need God in order to obtain immortality, that morality needs God for a universal moral imperative (UMI) and ultimate justice, and that the NT offers the best hope that this “duo of desirables” (DOD) or heaven and justice/hell can be attained. Just as physical needs are satisfied by material realities, perhaps our metaphysical needs indicate the reality of supernatural solutions (the God of the DOD).
Moral conscience indicates and logically requires accountability to a moral authority, and the supreme Authority would be God. Paul wrote (in Rom. 1:32 & 2:15) that people “know God’s decree that those who do evil deserve death” and that their consciences “show that the requirements of the [God’s moral] law are written on their hearts.” Our feeble attempts at earthly justice may reflect or serve as evidence of God’s perfect justice. This view is similar to Platonic idealism (cf. 1Cor. 13:12, Heb. 8:5, 9:23 & 10:1). We may perceive perfect justice partially (1Cor. 13:9-12) using spiritual eyes/intuition/a sixth sense along with inference, logic, and even imagination. [Slashes indicate essentially equivalent terms.]
This evidence is not proof, but because this hope and belief are based on evidence and logic, it is rational rather than “blind”, and it is made even more intellectually reasonable or defensible by acknowledging ways God would be disproved, which include the following:
1. If atheists or anti-Christians created eternal life, because the Bible teaches that eternal life is God’s gift only to believers in Him (John 3:16).
2. If the body of Jesus of Nazareth were discovered in a tomb, because Paul stated that if Christ is not resurrected, then faith is useless (1Cor. 15:14).
3. If it were proven that moral free will (MFW) is an illusion, because the premise of biblical morality is that human souls are accountable (Deut. 30:19-20).
4. If human-like beings on another planet had no salvation history involving God and Christ, because the Bible teaches that God is Lord of all (Phil. 2:9-11). (Caveat: If they are included in the Great Commission, their history would be like the OT.)
5. If God could prove His existence to people without abrogating free will (cf. 2Cor. 5:7), but apparently God performs miracles only as necessary to accomplish His plan of salvation (see Part VI).
6. If it were proved that the universe is not created, because resurrection or re-creation presupposes creation and thus a Creator (Acts 17:24-31).
This knowledge is gleaned directly from personal experiences and is available to all who seek to know the truth with an open mind (like Socrates or Buddha or Abram) by means of reflecting or meditating on experiences logically. The apostle Paul indicated the world reveals God’s “invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature” (Rom. 1:20) and that conscience indicates “the requirements of the law” (Rom. 2:15).
Logical reflection reveals that humanism provides no hope for ultimate “oughtness”, karmaism or reincarnation is incredible, and naturalism does not provide a rationale for morality/the UMI. An open-minded truthseeker who compares the NT teachings of Jesus and Paul with the founding scriptures of other religions will conclude that the NT is the most credible canon or collection of writings purporting to be a communique from God. The NT hope for heaven is based on evidence in support of Jesus’ claim to be Messiah/Christ, which includes: the prophecy or foreshadowing of His life (in various OT scriptures, including Isa. 53 and Psa. 22, and by the sacrificial system), the purpose of His death (as explained in the NT, such as Heb. 7:18-10:18), and the probability or credibility of His resurrection (in history as recorded by the last chapters of the Gospels and Rom. 1:3-4).
Thus, humanity’s existential need and desire for eternal life and ultimate justice (the duo of desirables or DOD) make it logical for truthseekers to have a propensity to hope and believe a God who provides the DOD exists, to determine the most credible revelation of God’s requirement for attaining heaven, and to cooperate with His revealed will. IOW, it seems logical–given the existential facts of death and imperfect justice–that an unbiased truthseeker would have a propensity to hope the Christian view is correct, because there is no better (credible and desirable) way of attaining the DOD than NT theism. This PP restates Pascal’s wager in terms of comparison shopping (with all belief systems) instead of gambling.
 
No.. Only Calvinists think this. No one else thinks this.. not has it even crossed their mind

For by grace we have been saved through faith

No faith no salvation. period.

He who believes is not condemned, he who does not beloieve is condemned already, why? Because God did not give them the ability to believe? No

because they knew God. but did not gloriphy God but hid the truth of hism in their hearts and created their own God. who will do what they want.

Oh yes. pride.

Not because did nto allow you to see. But because in pride, you refuse to see
No... Only Arminians believe that faith is not a gift. Calvinist do believe that faith is a gift.

No gift of faith no salvation. period.
 
You present a Gospel with no power to bring a person to metanoia, because that person is provided with an impersonal set of facts.
We don't present "a gospel", we present "the gospel". There is only one true gospel message. You sound like one of those people who believe there are many truths and many different versions of the gospel.

There are 49,000 Christian Denominations in 2026, and they preach hundreds of radically opposed versions of the gospel. You can believe a different version everyday. The Denominations claim that diversity is good, as it demonstrates progress. You don't want to preach the same old boring gospel now do you.
 
well I do not know what an arminian believes. nor do I actually care.

But faith is a gift.

No faith no salvation. Faith is offered to all.. Not everyone takes it.
So, you believe that eternal life in paradise is offered to everyone. But not everyone takes the offer and they choose eternal torment in the lake of fire instead. If you believe that, I have a harbour bridge to sell you for $50 and I'll even include an opera house if you buy it today.
 
So, you believe that eternal life in paradise is offered to everyone. But not everyone takes the offer and they choose eternal torment in the lake of fire instead. If you believe that, I have a harbour bridge to sell you for $50 and I'll even include an opera house if you buy it today.
The idea that “eternal life is offered to everyone but some choose eternal torment instead” is a caricature of the gospel, not the gospel itself; Jesus never taught that salvation is a cosmic sales pitch where the wise buy paradise and the foolish buy fire. He taught that eternal life is a gift given to His sheep, not an offer dangled before the crowd, and He taught that all the Father gives Him will come to Him, not that some will wander off into damnation by accident or poor decision‑making.
The mockery about bridges and opera houses only proves you don’t understand the difference between universal offer and effectual salvation: Scripture says Christ gives eternal life to His own, keeps His own, loses none of His own, and raises all of His own on the last day.
Eternal torment is not “chosen” by people who rejected a bargain — it is the just end of those who were never His sheep.
The issue isn’t who “takes the offer”; the issue is who the Father gives to the Son, and Jesus says every one of them is kept, secured, and raised. Their joke collapses because it assumes salvation is a marketplace — Jesus says it’s a miracle of sovereign grace.
 
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So, you believe that eternal life in paradise is offered to everyone. But not everyone takes the offer and they choose eternal torment in the lake of fire instead. If you believe that, I have a harbour bridge to sell you for $50 and I'll even include an opera house if you buy it today.
I believe what the word of God says.

But thanks for proving what I said earlier about you is true.
 
The idea that “eternal life is offered to everyone but some choose eternal torment instead” is a caricature of the gospel, not the gospel itself; Jesus never taught that salvation is a cosmic sales pitch where the wise buy paradise and the foolish buy fire. He taught that eternal life is a gift given to His sheep, not an offer dangled before the crowd, and He taught that all the Father gives Him will come to Him, not that some will wander off into damnation by accident or poor decision‑making.
The mockery about bridges and opera houses only proves you don’t understand the difference between universal offer and effectual salvation: Scripture says Christ gives eternal life to His own, keeps His own, loses none of His own, and raises all of His own on the last day.
Eternal torment is not “chosen” by people who rejected a bargain — it is the just end of those who were never His sheep.
The issue isn’t who “takes the offer”; the issue is who the Father gives to the Son, and Jesus says every one of them is kept, secured, and raised. Their joke collapses because it assumes salvation is a marketplace — Jesus says it’s a miracle of sovereign grace.
God taught this. In the words of Jesus himself

john 1: 12. but as many as have received him, to them he gave the right to become children, even to them who believe

john 3, for god so loved the world he gave his only son that whoever believes in him will never perish, but has eternal life, for the son was not sent to judge, but that the world might be saved, he who believes is not condemned, he who does not believe is condemned already

john 4: 13 Jesus answered and said to her, “whoever drinks of this water will thirst again, 14 but whoever drinks of the water that i shall give him will never thirst. but the water that i shall give him will become in him a fountain of water springing up into everlasting life”

john 5: 24 “most assuredly, i say to you, he whoever hears my word and believes in him who sent me who sent me has eternal life and shall not come into judgment but has passed from death to life

john 6: 35 and Jesus said to them, “i am the bread of life. he who comes to me shall never hunger and he who believes in me shall never thirst

john 6: 37: and the one who comes to me i will by no means cast out 38 for i have come down from heaven, not to do my own will, but the will of him who sent me. 39 this is the will of the father who sent me, that of all he has given me i shall lose nothing, but should raise it up on the last day. 40 and this is the will of him who sent me, that everyone who sees and believes in him may have everlasting life and i will raise him on the last day

john 6: 47 most assuredly, i say to you, he who believes in me has everlasting life. 48 i am the bread of life. 49 your fathers ate the manna in the wilderness, and are dead. 50 this is the bread which comes down from heaven, that that one may eat of it and not die 51 am the living bread which came down from heaven. if anyone eats this bread he will live forever

john 6: 63 it is the spirit who gives life ; the flesh profits nothing. the words that I speak to you are spirit and they are life

John 6:
54 Whoever eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. 55 For My flesh is food indeed, and My blood is drink indeed. 56 He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood abides in Me, and I in him. 57 As the living Father sent Me, and I live because of the Father, so he who feeds on Me will live because of Me. 58 This is the bread which came down from heaven—not as your fathers ate the manna, and are dead. He who eats this bread will live forever.”


so what Did Jesus say is required

1. We recieve him
2. We believe in him
3. We drink the water of life he is offering us
4. Hears the word and believes
5. We come to him
6. We see and believe
7. Eat his flesh and blood
8. We feed on him.

what does all this mean?


It is the spirit who gives life. the words he speaks is spirit and life.

we are washed by the washing of water by the word.

But God will not force us to recieve this gift. We must in humility recieve it.
 
God taught this. In the words of Jesus himself

john 1: 12. but as many as have received him, to them he gave the right to become children, even to them who believe

john 3, for god so loved the world he gave his only son that whoever believes in him will never perish, but has eternal life, for the son was not sent to judge, but that the world might be saved, he who believes is not condemned, he who does not believe is condemned already

john 4: 13 Jesus answered and said to her, “whoever drinks of this water will thirst again, 14 but whoever drinks of the water that i shall give him will never thirst. but the water that i shall give him will become in him a fountain of water springing up into everlasting life”

john 5: 24 “most assuredly, i say to you, he whoever hears my word and believes in him who sent me who sent me has eternal life and shall not come into judgment but has passed from death to life

john 6: 35 and Jesus said to them, “i am the bread of life. he who comes to me shall never hunger and he who believes in me shall never thirst

john 6: 37: and the one who comes to me i will by no means cast out 38 for i have come down from heaven, not to do my own will, but the will of him who sent me. 39 this is the will of the father who sent me, that of all he has given me i shall lose nothing, but should raise it up on the last day. 40 and this is the will of him who sent me, that everyone who sees and believes in him may have everlasting life and i will raise him on the last day

john 6: 47 most assuredly, i say to you, he who believes in me has everlasting life. 48 i am the bread of life. 49 your fathers ate the manna in the wilderness, and are dead. 50 this is the bread which comes down from heaven, that that one may eat of it and not die 51 am the living bread which came down from heaven. if anyone eats this bread he will live forever

john 6: 63 it is the spirit who gives life ; the flesh profits nothing. the words that I speak to you are spirit and they are life

John 6:
54 Whoever eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. 55 For My flesh is food indeed, and My blood is drink indeed. 56 He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood abides in Me, and I in him. 57 As the living Father sent Me, and I live because of the Father, so he who feeds on Me will live because of Me. 58 This is the bread which came down from heaven—not as your fathers ate the manna, and are dead. He who eats this bread will live forever.”


so what Did Jesus say is required

1. We recieve him
2. We believe in him
3. We drink the water of life he is offering us
4. Hears the word and believes
5. We come to him
6. We see and believe
7. Eat his flesh and blood
8. We feed on him.

what does all this mean?


It is the spirit who gives life. the words he speaks is spirit and life.

we are washed by the washing of water by the word.

But God will not force us to recieve this gift. We must in humility recieve it
Every passage you quoted actually proves the opposite of what you are trying to argue, because Jesus never presents salvation as a human‑initiated reception but as a Spirit‑given response to His own life‑giving words.
When Jesus says “receive,” “believe,” “come,” “drink,” “eat,” and “hear,”
He immediately explains that the Spirit gives life and the flesh profits nothing, meaning these actions are not human prerequisites but Spirit‑enabled responses flowing from the life He gives.
John 6 makes this explicit: “All that the Father gives Me will come to Me… and I will lose nothing but raise it up on the last day.”
That is not an offer; that is a guarantee.
The same chapter says no one can come unless the Father draws, and everyone drawn is raised — which means salvation is not a marketplace where God waits for humility, but a miracle where God gives life to the dead.
Your list of “requirements” collapses under Jesus’ own explanation: believing is Spirit‑given, coming is Spirit‑drawn, drinking is Spirit‑enabled, eating is Spirit‑sustained, and eternal life is Spirit‑secured.
The entire point of John’s Gospel is that eternal life is the result of Christ’s action, not the condition of ours, and every promise Jesus makes — “never perish,” “never thirst,” “never hunger,” “never cast out,” “lose nothing,” “raise on the last day,” “live forever” — is unconditional because the Spirit produces the very faith He commands.
your argument assumes human autonomy; Jesus teaches divine initiative. That’s the difference, and that’s why OSAS is simply taking Jesus at His word. I'm not denying your diligence, and even I struggled with this at first. But we can walk through it more if you need to.
 
Every passage you quoted actually proves the opposite of what you are trying to argue, because Jesus never presents salvation as a human‑initiated reception but as a Spirit‑given response to His own life‑giving words.
When Jesus says “receive,” “believe,” “come,” “drink,” “eat,” and “hear,”
He immediately explains that the Spirit gives life and the flesh profits nothing, meaning these actions are not human prerequisites but Spirit‑enabled responses flowing from the life He gives.
John 6 makes this explicit: “All that the Father gives Me will come to Me… and I will lose nothing but raise it up on the last day.”
That is not an offer; that is a guarantee.
The same chapter says no one can come unless the Father draws, and everyone drawn is raised — which means salvation is not a marketplace where God waits for humility, but a miracle where God gives life to the dead.
Your list of “requirements” collapses under Jesus’ own explanation: believing is Spirit‑given, coming is Spirit‑drawn, drinking is Spirit‑enabled, eating is Spirit‑sustained, and eternal life is Spirit‑secured.
The entire point of John’s Gospel is that eternal life is the result of Christ’s action, not the condition of ours, and every promise Jesus makes — “never perish,” “never thirst,” “never hunger,” “never cast out,” “lose nothing,” “raise on the last day,” “live forever” — is unconditional because the Spirit produces the very faith He commands.
your argument assumes human autonomy; Jesus teaches divine initiative. That’s the difference, and that’s why OSAS is simply taking Jesus at His word. I'm not denying your diligence, and even I struggled with this at first. But we can walk through it more if you need to.

The crucial point is that God will not force sinners to receive His gift of salvation;
they must satisfy His condition of faith through wanting to have it.
God initiates/offers/gives; sinners may cooperate/accept/receive--or not.