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Are you RIGHTEOUS?
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LOL Looks like you got me! 452 There we go. Why did it seem simple. I just said what was on my mind.....Oh! I'm simple minded hey? LOL
Post # 450 and 451 are "code" for - if Christians don't observe the Sabbath day as outlined in the Old Testament - then they are sinning and dis-obeying God.
We are not ignorant of these Judaizing devices. Have a look at the "Sabbath" thread and you'll see this deceiving spirit in action. It is a perversion of the gospel of the grace of God in Christ.
We are not ignorant of these Judaizing devices. Have a look at the "Sabbath" thread and you'll see this deceiving spirit in action. It is a perversion of the gospel of the grace of God in Christ.
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UnderGrace
Guest
I really hate it when questions do not get answered!
I keep waiting and waiting..
I keep waiting and waiting..
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willybob
Guest
It appears that many are trying to deceive others here, but the apostle John said: LET NO MAN DECEIVE YOU; he that DOES righteousness IS RIGHTEOUS, just as He is righteous, and he that sins is of the devil.....(bible 101, from Genesis to Revelation)
Hi Grace777,
You are a funny one and I really do worry about you my friend. If God convicts you of sin you should repent and turn to him. God's Word has nothing to do with codes. I have only shared the Word of God with you. You are not upset with me my friend it is God's Word not mine. I am only a messenger sharing His Words. If there is something you believe I have said that is not correct in any of my posts you are free to reply. If you can't find anything in my posts from God's Word that is not correct then why do you not believe God? Do our opinions and the traditions and teachings of men matter more than God's Word? God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou might be justified in thy sayings, and might overcome when thou art judged. (Rom 3:4)
JOHN 12:
[SUP]47,[/SUP] And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
[SUP]48,[/SUP] He that rejects me, and receives not my words, hath one that judges him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.
"Now the Spirit speaks expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils. (1Tim 4:1) God's Sheep hear His Voice....
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willybob
Guest
Yes that's true.....Love God with all your heart, mind, strength, soul, and love your neigbour as yourself was the premise of the OLD Covenant that God made with His people at Sinai..You find these principles in the OT .The ordinances and the law of Moses was added on after the commandments given by God because of disobedience, said Paul in Galatians...Mankind in general, was given a greater measure after the cross....., its no great wonder that from the time of Noah to Jesus the worlds total population was about 6 billion during that 2400 year period.... but those born after the cross are approximately 120 billion people....And since the time that the bible was printed in English by Tyndale, there have been approx. 80 billion people, or 66% of the worlds population over the last 2000 years...Yes indeed the law has been magnified, (the Law of the Spirit)...Christ magnified the moral law of God...
Rom 3:21 But now, apart from the Law, God's righteousness is revealed and is attested by the Law and the Prophets—
Rom 3:22 God's righteousness through the faithfulness of Jesus the Messiah—for all who believe. For there is no distinction among people,
Rom 3:23 since all have sinned and continue to fall short of God's glory.
Rom 3:24 By his grace they are justified freely through the redemption that is in the Messiah Jesus,
Rom 3:25 whom God offered as a place where atonement by the Messiah's blood would occur
through faith. He did this to demonstrate his righteousness, because he had waited patiently to deal
with sins committed in the past.
Rom 3:26 He wanted to demonstrate at the present time that he himself is righteous and that he justifies anyone who has the faithfulness of Jesus.
Rom 3:27 What, then, is there to boast about? That has been eliminated. On what principle? On that of actions? No, but on the principle of faith.
Rom 3:28 For we maintain that a person is justified by faith apart from the actions prescribed by the Law.
Rom 3:29 Is God the God of the Jews only? Is he not the God of the gentiles, too? Yes, of the gentiles, too,
Rom 3:30 since there is only one God who will justify the circumcised on the basis of faith and the uncircumcised by that same faith.
Rom 3:31 Do we, then, abolish the Law by this faith? Of course not! Instead, we uphold the Law.
Is Paul contradicting himself here in the last verse?
cont.
Rom 3:22 God's righteousness through the faithfulness of Jesus the Messiah—for all who believe. For there is no distinction among people,
Rom 3:23 since all have sinned and continue to fall short of God's glory.
Rom 3:24 By his grace they are justified freely through the redemption that is in the Messiah Jesus,
Rom 3:25 whom God offered as a place where atonement by the Messiah's blood would occur
through faith. He did this to demonstrate his righteousness, because he had waited patiently to deal
with sins committed in the past.
Rom 3:26 He wanted to demonstrate at the present time that he himself is righteous and that he justifies anyone who has the faithfulness of Jesus.
Rom 3:27 What, then, is there to boast about? That has been eliminated. On what principle? On that of actions? No, but on the principle of faith.
Rom 3:28 For we maintain that a person is justified by faith apart from the actions prescribed by the Law.
Rom 3:29 Is God the God of the Jews only? Is he not the God of the gentiles, too? Yes, of the gentiles, too,
Rom 3:30 since there is only one God who will justify the circumcised on the basis of faith and the uncircumcised by that same faith.
Rom 3:31 Do we, then, abolish the Law by this faith? Of course not! Instead, we uphold the Law.
Is Paul contradicting himself here in the last verse?
cont.
www.academia.edu
~Romans 3:31 is difficult to translate as well as ambiguous and theologically disputed. I am not satisfied withthe traditional treatment of this verse in the commentaries nor the traditional translations, although thetranslations vary quite a bit.
.KJV: we establish the lawRSV, ESV, NIV, GNB: we uphold the lawNLT: we truly fulfill the lawGod’s Word: we are supporting Moses' TeachingsThe Greek text is:νόμον οὖν καταργοῦμεν διὰτῆς πίστεως; μὴγένοιτο· ἀλλὰνόμον ἱστάνομεν.A literal version may be: Do we then discard “law” through/by way of the faith? Not at all! Rather, we make“law” stand.
If this verse is read out of context in a fairly literal translation, as most people do, it is difficult to understand the meaning. Part of the context is that Paul is writing to Jews in Rome.
Another part of thecontext is the way the Hebrew Scriptures were translated into Greek.
A third part is what Paul is writingelsewhere on this topic.
1. What is NOMOS (law)? The Hebrew scriptures (Tanakh) were and are commonly divided into threeparts: The Torah, the Prophets and the Writings. The Torah consists of the “Five Books of Moses”. The wordbasically means “teaching” and it refers to God’s teaching where Moses was a key person in receiving thisinformation and giving it to the Israelites.
In the LXX, Torah is normally translated by NOMOS, and this givesrise to the first ambiguity: Does NOMOS refer to the Torah or more specifically to the 10 commandmentsand the other laws, rules and regulations or maybe to secular law in general? To answer that question, Ibelieve it is helpful to refer to the introduction of this section, namely v. 21.
It is common in Jewish/Hebrewthoughts and writing to have an inclusio, i.e. the first and last part of a section overlap lexically andsemantically (in both words and meaning). In v. 21 we read that now (after Christ has come and havingaccepted Christ as Saviour/Messiah) there is a new kind of righteousness from God (cf. Rom 10:3) whichhas been revealed, but it was already testified to (prophesied about) in the “Law and the Prophets”.
Because of the coordination between “Law” and “Prophets”, I am suggesting that “Law” (NOMOS) both inverse 21 and 31 is intended to refer to the Torah. It so happens that the Torah also contains a number of prophecies about the coming Messiah. One of the most famous ones is found in Deut 18:15-18. It is quotedseveral times by various NT writers. Paul quotes two times in chapter 4 from the Torah. Genesis containsseveral important prophetic promises to the Patriarchs.
2. What is meant by “through the faith”? I suggest that it refers to this new way of becoming accepted byGod (righteousness),namely through faith in Jesus as the Messiah (and through faith in his “blood” (v. 25),that is, his atoning death.)
3. Does this new way to righteousness mean that we should just throw the Torah away? The Jews in Romewould be very upset if that was the case. The Greek verb is translated variously: make void (KJV),
cont
~Romans 3:31 is difficult to translate as well as ambiguous and theologically disputed. I am not satisfied withthe traditional treatment of this verse in the commentaries nor the traditional translations, although thetranslations vary quite a bit.
.KJV: we establish the lawRSV, ESV, NIV, GNB: we uphold the lawNLT: we truly fulfill the lawGod’s Word: we are supporting Moses' TeachingsThe Greek text is:νόμον οὖν καταργοῦμεν διὰτῆς πίστεως; μὴγένοιτο· ἀλλὰνόμον ἱστάνομεν.A literal version may be: Do we then discard “law” through/by way of the faith? Not at all! Rather, we make“law” stand.
If this verse is read out of context in a fairly literal translation, as most people do, it is difficult to understand the meaning. Part of the context is that Paul is writing to Jews in Rome.
Another part of thecontext is the way the Hebrew Scriptures were translated into Greek.
A third part is what Paul is writingelsewhere on this topic.
1. What is NOMOS (law)? The Hebrew scriptures (Tanakh) were and are commonly divided into threeparts: The Torah, the Prophets and the Writings. The Torah consists of the “Five Books of Moses”. The wordbasically means “teaching” and it refers to God’s teaching where Moses was a key person in receiving thisinformation and giving it to the Israelites.
In the LXX, Torah is normally translated by NOMOS, and this givesrise to the first ambiguity: Does NOMOS refer to the Torah or more specifically to the 10 commandmentsand the other laws, rules and regulations or maybe to secular law in general? To answer that question, Ibelieve it is helpful to refer to the introduction of this section, namely v. 21.
It is common in Jewish/Hebrewthoughts and writing to have an inclusio, i.e. the first and last part of a section overlap lexically andsemantically (in both words and meaning). In v. 21 we read that now (after Christ has come and havingaccepted Christ as Saviour/Messiah) there is a new kind of righteousness from God (cf. Rom 10:3) whichhas been revealed, but it was already testified to (prophesied about) in the “Law and the Prophets”.
Because of the coordination between “Law” and “Prophets”, I am suggesting that “Law” (NOMOS) both inverse 21 and 31 is intended to refer to the Torah. It so happens that the Torah also contains a number of prophecies about the coming Messiah. One of the most famous ones is found in Deut 18:15-18. It is quotedseveral times by various NT writers. Paul quotes two times in chapter 4 from the Torah. Genesis containsseveral important prophetic promises to the Patriarchs.
2. What is meant by “through the faith”? I suggest that it refers to this new way of becoming accepted byGod (righteousness),namely through faith in Jesus as the Messiah (and through faith in his “blood” (v. 25),that is, his atoning death.)
3. Does this new way to righteousness mean that we should just throw the Torah away? The Jews in Romewould be very upset if that was the case. The Greek verb is translated variously: make void (KJV),
cont
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JOHN 12:
[SUP]47,[/SUP] And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
[SUP]48,[/SUP] He that rejects me, and receives not my words, hath one that judges him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.
(RSV), nullify (NIV), do away with (GNB), destroy (CEV), forget about (NLT). But is Paul contradictinghimself? He used the exact same Greek word in Eph 2:15: “by abolishing in his
flesh the law of
commandments and ordinances” (RSV). In Ephesians his main audience are the Gentiles, and here he is
talking not about the Torah as a whole but the laws and commandments it contains. He is specificallythinking about how to become accepted by God and join the new people of God, so that believing Jews andGentiles become one people. This is not a result of trying to keep the commandments and ordinances inthe Jewish laws. It is by grace through faith you are saved (Eph 2:8).4. What does it mean to make the Torah stand? The Greek verb used is very common, 155 times in the NT.However, this is the only place in the NT where it is used in the present tense. Present tense forms of theverb do occur occasionally in the Septuagint, but most of the time it is in the literal sense of placing aperson or thing at a particular location. I have only been able to find one place where the present tenseform is used and the context is similar to here, and that is in Isa 44:26. Here God is described as the one
“who confirms the word of his servant” (RSV). NET says: “who fulfills the oracles of his prophetic servants”.
My suggestion is that the word has a similar sense in Rom 3:31, to fulfill or make come true or confirm thetruth of it. It does not mean to establish or uphold the law as a set of laws. In prophetic language, if a
prophecy or a promise “falls to the ground” it has failed to come true. If it stands, it is fulfilled. So, myproposal is that Paul is here saying that “we” as Jews who have come to
believe in Jesus the Messiah arenot abolishing or throwing away the Torah. Rather we are fulfilling its intentions, we are in a new and
better way doing what God wants us to do, and that is the basic meaning of “righteousness”. Paul comes
back to that thought many times, including in Rom 8:4 and 13:8-10.As far as translations go, I think NLT is the most accurate in terms of conveying the intended meaning. Paulis not telling the Jews or Jewish Christians to throw away the Torah just because a new way of beingaccepted by God has come with Jesus. When Paul preached to Jews he always referred to prophecies in theTorah and other parts of the Jewish Bible. The Torah as a means of justification is obsolete, since faith inJesus has now become the means. But the Torah as a historical document with many prophecies is still animportant resource. He is also suggesting that through Christ and empowered by the Holy Spirit, a believeris able to fulfill the intention of God
’
s teaching and commands, to do what pleases God. (More about thatin Romans 8). It is a better and more efficient way than trying to follow the letter of the Law, the way thePharisees tried to do.
flesh the law of
commandments and ordinances” (RSV). In Ephesians his main audience are the Gentiles, and here he is
talking not about the Torah as a whole but the laws and commandments it contains. He is specificallythinking about how to become accepted by God and join the new people of God, so that believing Jews andGentiles become one people. This is not a result of trying to keep the commandments and ordinances inthe Jewish laws. It is by grace through faith you are saved (Eph 2:8).4. What does it mean to make the Torah stand? The Greek verb used is very common, 155 times in the NT.However, this is the only place in the NT where it is used in the present tense. Present tense forms of theverb do occur occasionally in the Septuagint, but most of the time it is in the literal sense of placing aperson or thing at a particular location. I have only been able to find one place where the present tenseform is used and the context is similar to here, and that is in Isa 44:26. Here God is described as the one
“who confirms the word of his servant” (RSV). NET says: “who fulfills the oracles of his prophetic servants”.
My suggestion is that the word has a similar sense in Rom 3:31, to fulfill or make come true or confirm thetruth of it. It does not mean to establish or uphold the law as a set of laws. In prophetic language, if a
prophecy or a promise “falls to the ground” it has failed to come true. If it stands, it is fulfilled. So, myproposal is that Paul is here saying that “we” as Jews who have come to
believe in Jesus the Messiah arenot abolishing or throwing away the Torah. Rather we are fulfilling its intentions, we are in a new and
better way doing what God wants us to do, and that is the basic meaning of “righteousness”. Paul comes
back to that thought many times, including in Rom 8:4 and 13:8-10.As far as translations go, I think NLT is the most accurate in terms of conveying the intended meaning. Paulis not telling the Jews or Jewish Christians to throw away the Torah just because a new way of beingaccepted by God has come with Jesus. When Paul preached to Jews he always referred to prophecies in theTorah and other parts of the Jewish Bible. The Torah as a means of justification is obsolete, since faith inJesus has now become the means. But the Torah as a historical document with many prophecies is still animportant resource. He is also suggesting that through Christ and empowered by the Holy Spirit, a believeris able to fulfill the intention of God
’
s teaching and commands, to do what pleases God. (More about thatin Romans 8). It is a better and more efficient way than trying to follow the letter of the Law, the way thePharisees tried to do.
W
willybob
Guest
blessed are the poor in spirit; these are the humble, those that realize they are criminals before a just God, and then come clean with Him in repentance, 2 Cor. 7-10,11..without this work of repentance there can be no "poor in spirit" to be blessed...Blessed are them that mourn over their sins and a realize the evil therein....blessed are those that hunger and thirst after righteousness, for they shall be filled...desiring to do what is right and doing it via the influence of the Spirit of Grace, for out of his/her inward parts shall flow fountains of living water (the empowerment of the Holy Ghost producing deeds of righteousness form heart purity worthy of repentance)......be blessed
The law was never meant to be able to be kept but man. But in his superiority he tries to manage an attempt at it. So on the outward looks of things and can keep up appearances on a certain level. But because man has the flesh to deal with., he falls short of the mark on the outside as well as on the inside too. The law was given for people to realize we are unable to do it as it's supposed to be done. Because man could not do the law., God used high priests to go before God on behalf of the people and offer sacrifices to atone for the inability to "do" the works of the law. Man always fails.
And., not only can we not do the law justice., we can't do the law of the Spirit justice either because we need Jesus to be our righteousness instead of the blood of bulls and goats. We need the Holy Spirit to show us how to allow the life of Christ to work in us and change us from the inside out.
It is pure human reason to think we can be good enough and complete enough in ourselves to do the right things and think the right things FOR God. Even when we consider all that Jesus has done and we eagerly WANT to pay Him and the Father back by our good behavior., we can't do it., and we will fail. When we seek to establish our own righteousness., we fall from grace and there will be NO power to accomplish the fruits of the Spirit in our lives. A Christian will live a failed life because although he may have been saved by grace through faith., he is trying to live by and establish himself in the works of the law. Even with all good intentions he will fail every time and be frustrated at his own heart's weaknesses.
That is why we are constantly directed by the Holy Spirit to look to Jesus and away from self. To find our righteousness only in Jesus Christ and not in our good intentions or our good works from our good intentions. It is a vicious cycle to try to live the life of the Spirit by the flesh. As believers, our identity is in Christ now and not in ourselves any longer. When God looks at us., we need to know He sees the righteousness of Christ. In that truth we are not condemned and Romans 8:1 finds it's fulfillment in us and for us. We will be able to stand up despite our failures and weaknesses when we look to Jesus Who IS our righteousness even and especially in our failures when we are so tempted to allow the enemy to condemn us for our failures he won't be able to when we trust enough of the Word to receive the gift of no condemnation in Christ. The more we do this, the less influence the world, the flesh and the devil will have over us. This is the victory that over comes the world, "faith" in Him and not ourselves.
For salvation?
We're still at this point?
Do works save us?
You walk slowly my friend.
Hmmmmm.
www........
Maybe the problem here is that some are learning their theology from Prof. Google instead of a mainline church.
We're to study God's word.
Not what some guy online thinks about it.
Do people here even go to church and study with that church, I wonder.
I really hate it when questions do not get answered!
I keep waiting and waiting..
I hate it too!
I've asked a question many times, even of you, and have never received an answer.
You know this tactic well...