As the angel of the LORD, Jesus appeared as a man, or spoke, to many in the O.T. Do you believe He has appeared since the Ascension?

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T

TheWaytoGo

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#1
#1
For instance, the angel of the LORD (Jesus) visited Hagar in her suffering:
  • Gen 16:7 And the angel of the LORD found her by a fountain of water in the wilderness, by the fountain in the way to Shur.
Spoke to Abraham to stop him from sacrificing Isaac:
  • Gen 22:11 And the angel of the LORD called unto him out of heaven, and said, Abraham, Abraham: and he said, Here am I.
Dealt with Balaam:
  • Num 22:31 Then the LORD opened the eyes of Balaam, and he saw the angel of the LORD standing in the way, and his sword drawn in his hand: and he bowed down his head, and fell flat on his face.
Visited Manoah and his wife to prophecy they would have a child named Samson:
  • Jdg 13:20 For it came to pass, when the flame went up toward heaven from off the altar, that the angel of the LORD ascended in the flame of the altar. And Manoah and his wife looked on it, and fell on their faces to the ground. 22 And Manoah said unto his wife, We shall surely die, because we have seen God.
And Jesus was in the Burning Bush with Moses, and a vision to David, and spoke to Elijah, and slayed thousands of Assyrian soldiers, etc.
 
Corban

Corban

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TheWaytoGo said:
For instance, the angel of the LORD (Jesus) visited Hagar in her suffering:
  • Gen 16:7 And the angel of the LORD found her by a fountain of water in the wilderness, by the fountain in the way to Shur.
Spoke to Abraham to stop him from sacrificing Isaac:
  • Gen 22:11 And the angel of the LORD called unto him out of heaven, and said, Abraham, Abraham: and he said, Here am I.
Dealt with Balaam:
  • Num 22:31 Then the LORD opened the eyes of Balaam, and he saw the angel of the LORD standing in the way, and his sword drawn in his hand: and he bowed down his head, and fell flat on his face.
Visited Manoah and his wife to prophecy they would have a child named Samson:
  • Jdg 13:20 For it came to pass, when the flame went up toward heaven from off the altar, that the angel of the LORD ascended in the flame of the altar. And Manoah and his wife looked on it, and fell on their faces to the ground. 22 And Manoah said unto his wife, We shall surely die, because we have seen God.
And Jesus was in the Burning Bush with Moses, and a vision to David, and spoke to Elijah, and slayed thousands of Assyrian soldiers, etc.
Click to expand...
Good question. The term, "Angel of the Lord" appears in Acts, but it would seem that the Lord sent him (Act.12:11), making the Lord not the angel He sent.

But I judge that there is a reason why we do not have this phenomena in the New Testament after ascension. The Believer must live his/her life by (i) FAITH, and (ii) by the leading of the Spirit of God in our human spirit (Rom.8:11, 14). Although God can still use angels, visions and dreams, the everyday life of a Christian is a walk of NOT KNOWING what is ahead, and of casting his future into God's hands.
 
O

oldethennew

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#4
Feb 28, 2016
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#4
we have to be very careful when using the term: 'angel' of The Lord' -
for in,
NUM. 22:22.
the angel of The Lord is 'standing as an adversary', rendered, 'satan'...(H7854)...
JOSH. 5:14.
And he said, Nay; but as captain of The Host of The LORD am I now come.
And Joshua fell on his face to the earth, and did worship, and said unto Him,
What saith my Lord unto his servant? =
this manifestation is for sure The Christ, because Joshua is 'worshipping Him'...
BUT, the term, 'angel of the lord, in the Hagar scripture could have one of several meanings:
it simply means 'any messenger of God', not any 'particular one', because God has
many diverse messengers in the form of angelic beings and human beings...

may our Lord lead us into all wisdom and understanding according to His will-time-place'...
 
B

bluto

Senior Member
#5
Aug 4, 2016
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Corban said:
Good question. The term, "Angel of the Lord" appears in Acts, but it would seem that the Lord sent him (Act.12:11), making the Lord not the angel He sent.

But I judge that there is a reason why we do not have this phenomena in the New Testament after ascension. The Believer must live his/her life by (i) FAITH, and (ii) by the leading of the Spirit of God in our human spirit (Rom.8:11, 14). Although God can still use angels, visions and dreams, the everyday life of a Christian is a walk of NOT KNOWING what is ahead, and of casting his future into God's hands.
Click to expand...
It should be first stated that "the" angel of the Lord who is the preincarnate Jesus Christ "NEVER" appears in the New Testament, only in the Old Testament. Secondly, Jesus is "NOT" an actual angel. The Hebrew word for angel is "malak." It simply means "messenger" and it can refer to an actual angel or even to human beings, depending on how the word is used in its contex.

Now, the angel of the Lord is "mentioned" in the NT but like I said, he never appears in the NT. At Acts 7:30, "And after forty years had passed, An angel appeared to Him/Moses in the wilderness of Mount Sinai, in the flame of a burning throne bush. I know the word "an" is used but Stephen is referring to "the" angel of the Lord specifically at Acts 7:38. "This is the one who was in the congregation in the wilderness together with "the" angel who was speaking to him on Mount Sinai." The identity of the angel of the Lord is confirmed at Exodus 3, please read the whole chapter. Also take note of Exodus 13:21, Exodus 14:19 as well at Exodus 20:1.

Something else that is of vital importance that people overlook or have not even thought about? There is a difference in definition between the words, "a" or "an" and "the." The chief grammatical function of "an" or "a" is to connote a thing not previously noted or recognized. As opposed to "the" which connotes a thing previously noted or recognized.

In other words, you mentioned Acts 12:11 and I gave you Acts 12:7 where it says, "an" angle of the Lord suddenly appeared etc. Whereas Stephen mention the angel of the Lord who was previously mentioned as the angel of the Lord at Exodus 3. Also, the first appearance of the angel of the Lord as the angel of the Lord is at Genesis 16:7 The poster of this thread TheWaytoGod mentioned this.

Personally, I am convinced that the subject of the angel of the Lord is one of the best proofs of not only the preexistence of the Son, but also His deity. I have even more convincing proof of these facts if anyone is interested.

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto
 
soberxp

soberxp

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Do you believe He has appeared since the Ascension?
OF crouse,I do.
He can show up anywhere which you can't guess.
 
B

bluto

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Of course He appeared after His acension at numerous times. Matthew 28:8-10, Luke 24:13-43, John 20:16-17, To Thomas at John 20:26-29, at Acts 1:9 and at 1 Corinthaians 15:7. These appearances proved He did indeed resurrect from the dead. So what's your point? I will say that those appearances were not Jesus functioning as the angel of the Lord.

And what is this statement of yours suppose to mean? "He can show up anywhere which you can't guess." How about you telling us all here when Jesus has shown up where you can't guess? :eek:

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto
 
soberxp

soberxp

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bluto said:
Of course He appeared after His acension at numerous times. Matthew 28:8-10, Luke 24:13-43, John 20:16-17, To Thomas at John 20:26-29, at Acts 1:9 and at 1 Corinthaians 15:7. These appearances proved He did indeed resurrect from the dead. So what's your point? I will say that those appearances were not Jesus functioning as the angel of the Lord.

And what is this statement of yours suppose to mean? "He can show up anywhere which you can't guess." How about you telling us all here when Jesus has shown up where you can't guess? :eek:

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto
Click to expand...
This is no exaggeration. When you think that Jesus will appear as an angel, maybe he will appear as an alien(E.T). When you think that Jesus will appear as a man, you are wrong again,When you think Jesus can only appear in heaven, you are wrong again,this is what I mean.
Jesus can apper on a wall, on the sky, in your eyes, or in your ear,
 
awelight

awelight

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I assume the point of this question is can Jesus appear today, in this modern age, to some? Absolutely NOT!!!!!!!

Not that He could not but He will not until the Rapture, secretly and His coming for all the World to see at His second coming. Scripture clearly warns of those that say he was over here or over there and not to believe them. Any who would claim a personal visitation are either lying or they are on some really good stuff.
 
B

bluto

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Aug 4, 2016
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#10
soberxp said:
This is no exaggeration. When you think that Jesus will appear as an angel, maybe he will appear as an alien(E.T). When you think that Jesus will appear as a man, you are wrong again,When you think Jesus can only appear in heaven, you are wrong again,this is what I mean.
Jesus can apper on a wall, on the sky, in your eyes, or in your ear,
Click to expand...
Now that I had a nice lunch I'm still trying to understand what your point is on this issue? What did I say that is not Biblical in your opinion? And btw, the following is what Hebrews 9:28 states, "so Christ also, having been offered once to bear the sins of many shall appear a second time for salvation/deliverance without reference to sin, to those who eargerly await Him.

I see no reason why Jesus needs to appear as a fictional character such as E.T. or for any other reason you might come up with including my nose. You can also throw in Matthew 24:30 into the mix.

In Him,
bluto
 
T

TheWaytoGo

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#12
#12
oldethennew said:
we have to be very careful when using the term: 'angel' of The Lord' -
for in,
NUM. 22:22.
the angel of The Lord is 'standing as an adversary', rendered, 'satan'...(H7854)...
JOSH. 5:14.
And he said, Nay; but as captain of The Host of The LORD am I now come.
And Joshua fell on his face to the earth, and did worship, and said unto Him,
What saith my Lord unto his servant? =
this manifestation is for sure The Christ, because Joshua is 'worshipping Him'...
BUT, the term, 'angel of the lord, in the Hagar scripture could have one of several meanings:
it simply means 'any messenger of God', not any 'particular one', because God has
many diverse messengers in the form of angelic beings and human beings...

may our Lord lead us into all wisdom and understanding according to His will-time-place'...
Click to expand...
I saw that there is only one interpretation for angel of the LORD (all capitals). The use of angel of the "Lord" are for created beings.
 
T

TheWaytoGo

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#13
#13
bluto said:
It should be first stated that "the" angel of the Lord who is the preincarnate Jesus Christ "NEVER" appears in the New Testament, only in the Old Testament. Secondly, Jesus is "NOT" an actual angel. The Hebrew word for angel is "malak." It simply means "messenger" and it can refer to an actual angel or even to human beings, depending on how the word is used in its contex.

Now, the angel of the Lord is "mentioned" in the NT but like I said, he never appears in the NT. At Acts 7:30, "And after forty years had passed, An angel appeared to Him/Moses in the wilderness of Mount Sinai, in the flame of a burning throne bush. I know the word "an" is used but Stephen is referring to "the" angel of the Lord specifically at Acts 7:38. "This is the one who was in the congregation in the wilderness together with "the" angel who was speaking to him on Mount Sinai." The identity of the angel of the Lord is confirmed at Exodus 3, please read the whole chapter. Also take note of Exodus 13:21, Exodus 14:19 as well at Exodus 20:1.

Something else that is of vital importance that people overlook or have not even thought about? There is a difference in definition between the words, "a" or "an" and "the." The chief grammatical function of "an" or "a" is to connote a thing not previously noted or recognized. As opposed to "the" which connotes a thing previously noted or recognized.

In other words, you mentioned Acts 12:11 and I gave you Acts 12:7 where it says, "an" angle of the Lord suddenly appeared etc. Whereas Stephen mention the angel of the Lord who was previously mentioned as the angel of the Lord at Exodus 3. Also, the first appearance of the angel of the Lord as the angel of the Lord is at Genesis 16:7 The poster of this thread TheWaytoGod mentioned this.

Personally, I am convinced that the subject of the angel of the Lord is one of the best proofs of not only the preexistence of the Son, but also His deity. I have even more convincing proof of these facts if anyone is interested.

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto
Click to expand...

I'm very interested in hearing more!
 
B

bluto

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Aug 4, 2016
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Deuteronomy said:
Hello TheWaytoGo, we know that He has, yes .. e.g. Acts 9:1-9.

God bless you!

~Deut
Click to expand...
Your not paying attention. Jesus Christ did "NOT" appear in the New Testament as the angel of the Lord. Not only that, but I already posted numerous places where Jesus appeared after His resurrection. Again, you guys are not paying attention.

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto
 
R

Runningman

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#15
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TheWaytoGo said:
For instance, the angel of the LORD (Jesus) visited Hagar in her suffering:
  • Gen 16:7 And the angel of the LORD found her by a fountain of water in the wilderness, by the fountain in the way to Shur.
Spoke to Abraham to stop him from sacrificing Isaac:
  • Gen 22:11 And the angel of the LORD called unto him out of heaven, and said, Abraham, Abraham: and he said, Here am I.
Dealt with Balaam:
  • Num 22:31 Then the LORD opened the eyes of Balaam, and he saw the angel of the LORD standing in the way, and his sword drawn in his hand: and he bowed down his head, and fell flat on his face.
Visited Manoah and his wife to prophecy they would have a child named Samson:
  • Jdg 13:20 For it came to pass, when the flame went up toward heaven from off the altar, that the angel of the LORD ascended in the flame of the altar. And Manoah and his wife looked on it, and fell on their faces to the ground. 22 And Manoah said unto his wife, We shall surely die, because we have seen God.
And Jesus was in the Burning Bush with Moses, and a vision to David, and spoke to Elijah, and slayed thousands of Assyrian soldiers, etc.
Click to expand...
Hebrews 1:1-2
1God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, 2Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

Acts 2:17-20
17And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:
18And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:
19And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke:
20The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before that great and notable day of the Lord come:

In these last days, the period of time between Jesus' ascension and His prophesied return, God will speak to us through His Son Jesus in the form of dreams, visions, signs, and wonders. All of this occurs before the "great and notable day of the Lord." which will be an entirely different manifestation of God known as the Second Coming of Christ. Jesus will literally returns in full glory to conquer His enemies and take what remains of His church.
 
T

TheWaytoGo

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#16
#16
bluto said:
Of course He appeared after His acension at numerous times. Matthew 28:8-10, Luke 24:13-43, John 20:16-17, To Thomas at John 20:26-29, at Acts 1:9 and at 1 Corinthaians 15:7. These appearances proved He did indeed resurrect from the dead. So what's your point? I will say that those appearances were not Jesus functioning as the angel of the Lord.

And what is this statement of yours suppose to mean? "He can show up anywhere which you can't guess." How about you telling us all here when Jesus has shown up where you can't guess? :eek:

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto
Click to expand...

It seems to me all those appearances were before His ascension, except Saul. Since the men with him heard a voice, but did not see a man, it answers my question that Jesus has at least spoken aloud on earth since ascending back to heaven. Many people have said in the last 2,000 years they have literally seen Him bodily here on earth, and I was looking for evidence.

Ephesians 4:8-10 is beyond my comprehension. Someone said it means Jesus escorted the Old Testament Saints waiting in Paradise into Heaven after dying for their sins? Do you have an interpretation?
 
Corban

Corban

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bluto said:
It should be first stated that "the" angel of the Lord who is the preincarnate Jesus Christ "NEVER" appears in the New Testament, only in the Old Testament. Secondly, Jesus is "NOT" an actual angel. The Hebrew word for angel is "malak." It simply means "messenger" and it can refer to an actual angel or even to human beings, depending on how the word is used in its contex.

Now, the angel of the Lord is "mentioned" in the NT but like I said, he never appears in the NT. At Acts 7:30, "And after forty years had passed, An angel appeared to Him/Moses in the wilderness of Mount Sinai, in the flame of a burning throne bush. I know the word "an" is used but Stephen is referring to "the" angel of the Lord specifically at Acts 7:38. "This is the one who was in the congregation in the wilderness together with "the" angel who was speaking to him on Mount Sinai." The identity of the angel of the Lord is confirmed at Exodus 3, please read the whole chapter. Also take note of Exodus 13:21, Exodus 14:19 as well at Exodus 20:1.

Something else that is of vital importance that people overlook or have not even thought about? There is a difference in definition between the words, "a" or "an" and "the." The chief grammatical function of "an" or "a" is to connote a thing not previously noted or recognized. As opposed to "the" which connotes a thing previously noted or recognized.

In other words, you mentioned Acts 12:11 and I gave you Acts 12:7 where it says, "an" angle of the Lord suddenly appeared etc. Whereas Stephen mention the angel of the Lord who was previously mentioned as the angel of the Lord at Exodus 3. Also, the first appearance of the angel of the Lord as the angel of the Lord is at Genesis 16:7 The poster of this thread TheWaytoGod mentioned this.

Personally, I am convinced that the subject of the angel of the Lord is one of the best proofs of not only the preexistence of the Son, but also His deity. I have even more convincing proof of these facts if anyone is interested.

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto
Click to expand...
Agreed, and I think you'll find that my original posting agreed with you.
 
B

bluto

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#18
TheWaytoGo said:
I'm very interested in hearing more!
Click to expand...
Ok, I'm glad to hear that TheWay. And the way I will explain this is by sort of parapharsing instead of quoting all the verses, and you can check out to see if what I am saying is true according to Acts 17:11. The very first appearance of the angel of the Lord as the angel of the Lord is at Genesis 16:7 where he physcially appears to Hagar.

He says to her at vs 9 that he will greatly multiply her descendants so that they will be too many to count. He also tells her she is with child at vs11. Hagar's descendants are the present day Arabs. At vs 13 she says, "The she called the name of the Lord who spoke to her, "Thou art a God who sees," for she said, "Have I even remained alive here after seeing Him.

Now look at the next chapter, Genesis 17:1-2. "Now when Abram was ninety-nine years old, the Lord appeared to Abram and said to him, "I am God Almighty; Walk before Me, and be blameless, vs2, And I will establish My covenant between Me and you, And I will multiply you exceedingly."

Take note that at vs1 it says, "the Lord appeared to Abram, and claimed to be God Almighty." This is not a physical appearance of God the Father because the Father cannot be seen, even according to Jesus Himself and at other places in the NT. John 5:37, John 6:46, John 1:18, 1 Timothy 6:16. We know that this is a physical and visble appearance by God because of what Genesis 17:22 states, "And when He/God finished talking with him/Abram, God went up from Abraham."

Now, at Genesis 18:1, "Now the Lord apeared to him/Abraham by the oaks of Mamre, while he was sitting at the tent door in the heat of the day." In this chapter it is the angel of the Lord who appeared to Abraham along with two other persons who are actual angels. There is a dialogue in the rest of the chapter that goes on between the angel of the Lord/God and Abraham. They are discussing what is going to happen to Sodom and Gomorrah.

At the very last verse, (vs33) it says, "And as soon as He/God had finished speaking to Abraham the Lord departed, and Abraham returned to his place. Notice Genesis 19:1, "Now the two angels came to Sodom in the evening as Lot was sitting in the gate of Sodom etc. So the first angel at Genesis 18:1 is the Lord God and the other two men with Him are two actual angels.

I maintain (going back to Genesis 16:7-9) that the same being that multiplied Hagar's descendants is the same being who claimed to be God Almighty at Genesis 17:1-2 and multiplied Abraham's descendants. I'll stop for now to see if you have any questions. Trust me, it's going to get even better as we continue.

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto
 
Deuteronomy

Deuteronomy

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#19
bluto said:
Your not paying attention. Jesus Christ did "NOT" appear in the New Testament as the angel of the Lord. Not only that, but I already posted numerous places where Jesus appeared after His resurrection. Again, you guys are not paying attention.
Click to expand...
Hello Bluto, I'm sorry for any confusion, but my post was in reply to Jesus' appearing after His Ascension alone ~not~ with His appearing as "the angel of the Lord" in the OT (please take note of the part of the OP title that I quoted in my post).

Thanks!

~Deut
 
S

SophieT

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#20
soberxp said:
This is no exaggeration. When you think that Jesus will appear as an angel, maybe he will appear as an alien(E.T). When you think that Jesus will appear as a man, you are wrong again,When you think Jesus can only appear in heaven, you are wrong again,this is what I mean.
Jesus can apper on a wall, on the sky, in your eyes, or in your ear,
Click to expand...
Certifiable.
 
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