Assumptions Assumptions

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wattie

Senior Member
Feb 24, 2009
3,820
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New Zealand
So, seems to me, here there is really alot of generalising and assumptions about what other christians believe and do.

Speaking of us who adhere to OSAS, we encounter some who say we promote sinning/a license to sin, yet I haven't seen any on this forum who do promote sinning.

I think everyone gets guilty of it to try and make a point, but there are so many variations within denominations and non denominations that you would be confounded by assuming what they believe.

Everyone has a pet peeve :) Guess it's best to go from personal convinction than start with generalising and assumptions.
 
So, seems to me, here there is really alot of generalising and assumptions about what other christians believe and do.

Speaking of us who adhere to OSAS, we encounter some who say we promote sinning/a license to sin, yet I haven't seen any on this forum who do promote sinning.

I think everyone gets guilty of it to try and make a point, but there are so many variations within denominations and non denominations that you would be confounded by assuming what they believe.

Everyone has a pet peeve :) Guess it's best to go from personal convinction than start with generalising and assumptions.
I don't know what all your personal beliefs are, but I do know that the doctrine of OSAS opens the door for people to think they can make a profession of belief then live any way they want. That's not an assumption, it's an emperical observation. For example, influential preachers like Charles Stanley out there saying if a believer becomes and unbeliever his salvation isn't in jeopardy; or, if a person abandons their faith they'll still be saved. What do you think people are going to do when they hear that?
 
So, seems to me, here there is really alot of generalising and assumptions about what other christians believe and do.

Speaking of us who adhere to OSAS, we encounter some who say we promote sinning/a license to sin, yet I haven't seen any on this forum who do promote sinning.

I think everyone gets guilty of it to try and make a point, but there are so many variations within denominations and non denominations that you would be confounded by assuming what they believe.

Everyone has a pet peeve :) Guess it's best to go from personal convinction than start with generalising and assumptions.
The thing is many people say they cannot abstain from sin so they are holding on to sin.

For if they say they cannot abstain from sin they are obviously sinning.

And if they hold that attitude throughout their walk with Christ then they sinned the entire time and no change has occurred from when they were in the world.

Sure they might of toned it down but a little leaven leavens the whole bunch.

And if you break the least of the law you broke it all.

For them to think they can hold on to sin and be saved because they believe they cannot cease from sin is crazy.

They could of chose not to sin.

Gal 5:16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.

Gal 5:24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.

1Co 10:13 There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.

Jas 1:12 Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him.

If a person hates sin, and does not want sin, and allows the Spirit to lead them to accomplish that then they have the power to abstain from sin.

So why do they say they cannot abstain from sin.

Do they want to enjoy sin and have a no pressure lifestyle so they make an excuse.

If the power is there to help us to stop sinning then it is required of us.

2Ti 3:4 lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God;

2Ti 3:5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.

2Ti 3:7 Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.

Heb 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,

Heb 10:27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

Some people do not allow the Spirit to lead them for they will not let go of the flesh and love sin more than God.

They do not come to the truth.

Which a person that says they cannot cease from sin falls in this category.

The blood of Christ cannot wash away their sins.

2Ti 2:19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.

Mat 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

Mat 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

1Co 9:27 But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.

Castaway
adokimos
ad-ok'-ee-mos
From G1 (as a negative particle) and G1384; unapproved, that is, rejected; by implication worthless (literally or morally): - castaway, rejected, reprobate.

And it is required of us to allow the Spirit to lead us to abstain from sin.

1 Timothy 2:3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;

4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

Revelation 22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

John 1:29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.

God wants all people to be saved so we have a choice in our salvation since all people will not be saved.

Matthew 22:13 Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast him into outer darkness; there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

14 For many are called, but few are chosen.

1 Corinthians 1:26 For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called.

God does the calling and choosing on earth.

If God chose who would be saved in the beginning without their choice then why is He calling people on earth but not choosing them.

So we have a choice in our salvation.

When God calls a person according to their heart condition He will work in their life to get them to the truth.

And when they get to the door of truth if they get there then they have to make the choice to accept the truth for God's kingdom is true love.

But they would of not got to the door of truth if God did not intercede in their life.

Not everybody that is called accepts the truth so they are not chosen.

Romans 4:17 (As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were.

Revelation 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

God calls things that have not happened yet as though they already happened for if it is a plan of God to happen in the future it is the same as if it happened in the beginning for it will surely come to pass with no hindrance.

Which the Lamb was slain from the foundation of the world.

Predestination means that God had the plan of salvation to give to mankind before He laid down the foundation of the world.

But this salvation is to whoever wants it for God wants all people to be saved.

How can people be saved in the beginning when they cannot be saved until they accept Jesus for only by His shed blood are we saved which did not happen in the beginning.

And we have a choice because many are called but few are chosen.
 
The thing is many people say they cannot abstain from sin so they are holding on to sin.

For if they say they cannot abstain from sin they are obviously sinning.

And if they hold that attitude throughout their walk with Christ then they sinned the entire time and no change has occurred from when they were in the world.

Sure they might of toned it down but a little leaven leavens the whole bunch.

And if you break the least of the law you broke it all.

For them to think they can hold on to sin and be saved because they believe they cannot cease from sin is crazy.

They could of chose not to sin.

Gal 5:16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.

Gal 5:24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.

1Co 10:13 There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.

Jas 1:12 Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him.

If a person hates sin, and does not want sin, and allows the Spirit to lead them to accomplish that then they have the power to abstain from sin.

So why do they say they cannot abstain from sin.

Do they want to enjoy sin and have a no pressure lifestyle so they make an excuse.

If the power is there to help us to stop sinning then it is required of us.

2Ti 3:4 lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God;

2Ti 3:5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.

2Ti 3:7 Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.

Heb 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,

Heb 10:27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

Some people do not allow the Spirit to lead them for they will not let go of the flesh and love sin more than God.

They do not come to the truth.

Which a person that says they cannot cease from sin falls in this category.

The blood of Christ cannot wash away their sins.

2Ti 2:19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.

Mat 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

Mat 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

1Co 9:27 But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.

Castaway
adokimos
ad-ok'-ee-mos
From G1 (as a negative particle) and G1384; unapproved, that is, rejected; by implication worthless (literally or morally): - castaway, rejected, reprobate.

And it is required of us to allow the Spirit to lead us to abstain from sin.

1 Timothy 2:3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;

4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

Revelation 22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

John 1:29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.

God wants all people to be saved so we have a choice in our salvation since all people will not be saved.

Matthew 22:13 Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast him into outer darkness; there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

14 For many are called, but few are chosen.

1 Corinthians 1:26 For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called.

God does the calling and choosing on earth.

If God chose who would be saved in the beginning without their choice then why is He calling people on earth but not choosing them.

So we have a choice in our salvation.

When God calls a person according to their heart condition He will work in their life to get them to the truth.

And when they get to the door of truth if they get there then they have to make the choice to accept the truth for God's kingdom is true love.

But they would of not got to the door of truth if God did not intercede in their life.

Not everybody that is called accepts the truth so they are not chosen.

Romans 4:17 (As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were.

Revelation 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

God calls things that have not happened yet as though they already happened for if it is a plan of God to happen in the future it is the same as if it happened in the beginning for it will surely come to pass with no hindrance.

Which the Lamb was slain from the foundation of the world.

Predestination means that God had the plan of salvation to give to mankind before He laid down the foundation of the world.

But this salvation is to whoever wants it for God wants all people to be saved.

How can people be saved in the beginning when they cannot be saved until they accept Jesus for only by His shed blood are we saved which did not happen in the beginning.

And we have a choice because many are called but few are chosen.
Have you stopped sinning?
 
I don't know what all your personal beliefs are, but I do know that the doctrine of OSAS opens the door for people to think they can make a profession of belief then live any way they want. That's not an assumption, it's an emperical observation. For example, influential preachers like Charles Stanley out there saying if a believer becomes and unbeliever his salvation isn't in jeopardy; or, if a person abandons their faith they'll still be saved. What do you think people are going to do when they hear that?

If they hear the grace of God presented rightly, I think they'd understand unconditional love and be thankful.
 
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The thing is many people say they cannot abstain from sin so they are holding on to sin.

For if they say they cannot abstain from sin they are obviously sinning.

And if they hold that attitude throughout their walk with Christ then they sinned the entire time and no change has occurred from when they were in the world.

Sure they might of toned it down but a little leaven leavens the whole bunch.

And if you break the least of the law you broke it all.

For them to think they can hold on to sin and be saved because they believe they cannot cease from sin is crazy.

They could of chose not to sin.

Gal 5:16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.

Gal 5:24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.

1Co 10:13 There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.

Jas 1:12 Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him.

If a person hates sin, and does not want sin, and allows the Spirit to lead them to accomplish that then they have the power to abstain from sin.

So why do they say they cannot abstain from sin.

Do they want to enjoy sin and have a no pressure lifestyle so they make an excuse.

If the power is there to help us to stop sinning then it is required of us.

2Ti 3:4 lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God;

2Ti 3:5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.

2Ti 3:7 Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.

Heb 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,

Heb 10:27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

Some people do not allow the Spirit to lead them for they will not let go of the flesh and love sin more than God.

They do not come to the truth.

Which a person that says they cannot cease from sin falls in this category.

The blood of Christ cannot wash away their sins.

2Ti 2:19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.

Mat 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

Mat 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

1Co 9:27 But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.

Castaway
adokimos
ad-ok'-ee-mos
From G1 (as a negative particle) and G1384; unapproved, that is, rejected; by implication worthless (literally or morally): - castaway, rejected, reprobate.

And it is required of us to allow the Spirit to lead us to abstain from sin.

1 Timothy 2:3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;

4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

Revelation 22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

John 1:29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.

God wants all people to be saved so we have a choice in our salvation since all people will not be saved.

Matthew 22:13 Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast him into outer darkness; there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

14 For many are called, but few are chosen.

1 Corinthians 1:26 For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called.

God does the calling and choosing on earth.

If God chose who would be saved in the beginning without their choice then why is He calling people on earth but not choosing them.

So we have a choice in our salvation.

When God calls a person according to their heart condition He will work in their life to get them to the truth.

And when they get to the door of truth if they get there then they have to make the choice to accept the truth for God's kingdom is true love.

But they would of not got to the door of truth if God did not intercede in their life.

Not everybody that is called accepts the truth so they are not chosen.

Romans 4:17 (As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were.

Revelation 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

God calls things that have not happened yet as though they already happened for if it is a plan of God to happen in the future it is the same as if it happened in the beginning for it will surely come to pass with no hindrance.

Which the Lamb was slain from the foundation of the world.

Predestination means that God had the plan of salvation to give to mankind before He laid down the foundation of the world.

But this salvation is to whoever wants it for God wants all people to be saved.

How can people be saved in the beginning when they cannot be saved until they accept Jesus for only by His shed blood are we saved which did not happen in the beginning.

And we have a choice because many are called but few are chosen.

I haven't seen anyone believing in OSAS saying they can't abstain from sin.

Everyone has a sin nature, even after salvation. But we can sin less.
 
If they hear the grace of God presented rightly, I think they'd understand unconditional love and be thankful.
I'm not talking about hearing the grace of God presented rightly. I'm talking about the corrupt gospel of OSAS preached by people like Charles Stanley.
 
So, seems to me, here there is really alot of generalising and assumptions about what other christians believe and do.

Speaking of us who adhere to OSAS, we encounter some who say we promote sinning/a license to sin, yet I haven't seen any on this forum who do promote sinning.

I think everyone gets guilty of it to try and make a point, but there are so many variations within denominations and non denominations that you would be confounded by assuming what they believe.

Everyone has a pet peeve :) Guess it's best to go from personal convinction than start with generalising and assumptions.
Unfortunately, when it comes to what's written in the N.T and what churches teach as doctrine.

There is a visible difference and a very distinct difference between these two areas; the N.T and church doctrine.

One of the deeper problems is the influence of philosophy on certain early Christian authors.

These philosophical Christian authors had a powerful effect on so many generations of Christian churches.

Another problem stems from the growing power of certain church organizations during church history.

A good example are the Catholic and Orthodox Church organizations.

The Catholic Church governed European society during the middle ages.

The Inquisitions all up ran for over 500 years.

The Catholic and Orthodox Churches are the majority of all the Christian churches worldwide.

The breakdown of church organizations worldwide is approximately Catholic (50%), Orthodox (12%), Reformed (9%), Protestant (29%).

The Protestant church arrived centuries after the Great Schism between the Roman Church (Catholic) and the Eastern Church (Orthodox). These two church organizations were the bedrock of the much later Reformed and Protestant church organizations.

We also will be confronting layers of theology mixed into church doctrine that folk are taught from an early age.

Here is an example of a layered doctrinal church organization (I have nothing against Baptists it's just a good example).

The Baptist church has a clear division within as there are Calvinist and Arminian Baptist churches.

Usually the local congregation of a Baptist church makes the decisions regarding what and how the church operates.

Baptists do not have a centralized authority or a universal creed, meaning doctrinal beliefs can vary significantly between
local congregations and national conventions.

The modern Christian world is one jumbled, chaotic doctrinal landscape.
 
So, seems to me, here there is really alot of generalising and assumptions about what other christians believe and do.

Speaking of us who adhere to OSAS, we encounter some who say we promote sinning/a license to sin, yet I haven't seen any on this forum who do promote sinning.

I think everyone gets guilty of it to try and make a point, but there are so many variations within denominations and non denominations that you would be confounded by assuming what they believe.

Everyone has a pet peeve :) Guess it's best to go from personal convinction than start with generalising and assumptions.

Yes, OSAS is problematic and contradicts sixteen Scriptures, but another aspect of the tulip heresy is that it contradicts the omnilove of God and teaches that He shows favoritism or is unjust. Blasphemy!

The prooftexts tulipists cite are discussed in detail on the thread "Resolving Problematic Interpretations of Scripture".
 
Yes, OSAS is problematic and contradicts sixteen Scriptures, but another aspect of the tulip heresy is that it contradicts the omnilove of God and teaches that He shows favoritism or is unjust. Blasphemy!

The prooftexts tulipists cite are discussed in detail on the thread "Resolving Problematic Interpretations of Scripture".
Is it possible to hold OSAS and reject Tulip?

According to AI one can apparently maintain that distinction.

Yes, a person can hold to Once Saved, Always Saved (OSAS) while rejecting the rest of the TULIP acronym. [1, 2]

Theological Distinctions
    • Conceptual Overlap: OSAS is conceptually tied to the final "P" in TULIP, which stands for Perseverance (or Preservation) of the Saints. [1, 2]
    • The Non-Calvinist View: Many non-Calvinist or traditional Evangelical Christians affirm eternal security based on a believer's initial faith and God's promise to keep them, while explicitly denying Total Depravity, Unconditional Election, Limited Atonement, and Irresistible Grace. [1, 2, 3]
    • Theological Consistency Debate: Strict Calvinists often argue that OSAS logically requires the preceding points of sovereign election and preservation, but popular folk theology and independent Bible-believing groups frequently separate them in practice.