At what point in our salvation is the blood of Christ applied?

[sawdust]

When I see words like "mechanics" it brings to mind the man I would, above all others, recognize as my Pastor. Do you, like others here, learn from RBThieme?

Your question is a very good one.



FWIW, I wasn't raised Christian either. I didn't come to Christ until well into my thirties. Your comment about the meaningless statements is well appreciated. I tend to try to encapsulate a lot of information in a few words when I'm discussing with Christians who discuss on a media like this as if we all understand things to a certain degree.

There are many Scriptural reasons I bring obedience into the discussions about Faith and I'm happy to discuss it to whatever depth we can get to. And please see that when I write Faith/Obedience both words are included so I am never suggesting anything apart from Faith. Simply put, and I've said it many times in many ways, no one ultimately believes Jesus is Christ or God is God if they don't do what He says.

How about you answer my first question above and elaborate on "mechanics" to begin? Also, based upon your last question, what is "Faith"?

Yes, I learn from RB Thieme.

I have come to believe as we have discussed this issue that you and I are a lot closer in our thinking than was first apparent. I think it is more our own particular word usage that makes us look different.

Like I said before, when others start using the word "obedience", it makes my eye twitch in case what they really mean is "putting in your best effort" to comply with God's commands.

Faith is the Word at work in us to put it simply. Rom.10:17 tells us where faith comes from and Heb.11:1 tells us it is a guaranteed thing not simply a "wishful thinking" thing. The power for such assurance comes from the word, His word is truth so where there is no truth, there is no faith, we are only left with whatever we believe. The Spirit takes the things of Christ (Christ is the word) and when we respond to that word positively (ie. believe as true) and rest/abide in that truth, the word then starts to become a part of who we are so that we end up with "no longer I who lives but Christ who live in me".

If I may be a little presumptuous ... I rather think where you say faith/obedience, I'm inclined to think faith/rest and see that we are really saying the same thing. What say you?

 

[Lamar]

Why would a genuine saint want to walk away? That would be insanity and is unfathomable to me! That is the last thing on my mind. Eternal life with the Lord means everything to me!

We may think or label ourselves as "genuine saints" but the harsh reality is that no one knows who is or is not in the Book of Life.

Hence the need to work out our salvation in fear and trembling.

I realize this is not a popular idea but this is clearly expressed in the Bible.

 

[Lamar]

Why would a genuine saint want to walk away? That would be insanity and is unfathomable to me! That is the last thing on my mind. Eternal life with the Lord means everything to me!

Ask King Solomon.

Wait let me guess...he was not a genuine saint.

 

[studier]

Yes, I learn from RB Thieme.

I know the terminology. Other than some who learned from him, I also know he's about the only one I ever heard address things like mechanics.

I have come to believe as we have discussed this issue that you and I are a lot closer in our thinking than was first apparent. I think it is more our own particular word usage that makes us look different.

Probably yes & no. 20 years ago probably mainly yes.

Faith is the Word at work in us to put it simply. Rom.10:17 tells us where faith comes from and Heb.11:1 tells us it is a guaranteed thing not simply a "wishful thinking" thing. The power for such assurance comes from the word, His word is truth so where there is no truth, there is no faith, we are only left with whatever we believe. The Spirit takes the things of Christ (Christ is the word) and when we respond to that word positively (ie. believe as true) and rest/abide in that truth, the word then starts to become a part of who we are so that we end up with "no longer I who lives but Christ who live in me".

Some things to address, but good for now.

If I may be a little presumptuous ... I rather think where you say faith/obedience, I'm inclined to think faith/rest and see that we are really saying the same thing. What say you?

Of course you may say whatever you'd like. Faith/Obedience is straight parallelism from the Word in more than a few places. Faith/Rest is a doctrinal teaching based in part in Hebrews3-4. For some connection of Faith/Obedience with rest in Heb3-4 see this parallelism:

18 And to whom did He swear that they would not enter His rest, but to those who did not obey? 19 So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief. (Heb. 3:18-19 NKJ) - disobedience is parallel with unbelief.

For more, carry this parallelism forward. When we're seeing disobedience, we're seeing unbelief:

6 Since therefore it remains that some must enter it, and those to whom it was first preached did not enter because of disobedience, (Heb. 4:6 NKJ)

11 Let us therefore be diligent to enter that rest, lest anyone fall according to the same example of disobedience. (Heb. 4:11 NKJ)

So, from (exegesis) Scriptures like this, and others, what say I is Faith/Obedience is straight parallelism from the Word. Using good old military terminology that you should be used to hearing, just follow orders. It's inextricably intertwined with Genuine Faith: 46 "But why do you call Me 'Lord, Lord,' and do not do the things which I say? (Lk. 6:46 NKJ).

BTW, there are commands in Heb4:1, Heb4:7, Heb4:11 and more as Heb4 continues through the end where we're commanded to come before the Grace Throne in times of need (in dealing with sin, which is disobedience, so apply this to all of the above for a mechanic re: rest).

From the above do you see any rest apart from obeying Him? The example is no rest due to unbelief/disobedience - no Faith/Obedience no rest.

 

[mailmandan]

We may think or label ourselves as "genuine saints" but the harsh reality is that no one knows who is or is not in the Book of Life.

Hence the need to work out our salvation in fear and trembling.

I realize this is not a popular idea but this is clearly expressed in the Bible.

So, believers cannot have assurance of salvation? (Romans 8:16; 1 John 5:11-13) Notice in Philippians 2:12 that Paul said to "work out" your salvation and NOT "work for" your salvation. When we "work out" at the gym, we exercise to develop our body that we already have and not to get a body. Farmers "work out" the land, not in order to get the land, but to develop the land they already have. The Greek verb rendered "work out" means "to continually work to bring something to completion or fruition." We do this by actively pursuing the process of ongoing sanctification, which is the result of being set apart for God's work and involves the process of being conformed to the image of Christ.

This conforming to Christ involves the work of the person, but it is still God working in the believer to produce more of a godly character and life in the person who has already been justified by faith. In verse 13, Paul goes on to say, "for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure." Ongoing sanctification has no bearing on justification. That is, even if we don't live a sinless, without fault or defect, flawless, absolute perfect life 100% of the time (which we won't) we are still justified by faith in Christ. (Romans 5:1) Where justification is a legal declaration that is instantaneous, ongoing sanctification is a process.

In regard to "fear and trembling," it pertains to a healthy fear of offending God through disobedience and a righteous awe and respect or reverence for Him. (Proverbs 1:7; Psalm 2:11; Psalm 34:9; Isaiah 66:2) Prior to my conversion, while still attending the Roman Catholic church several years ago, I basically saw God as a tyrant who couldn't wait to punish me every time I messed up and throw me into hell for not being "good enough." That is an unhealthy fear of bondage and insecurity which is not from above!

Paul uses the same phrase "fear and trembling" in 2 Corinthians 7:15 in which he refers to Titus as being encouraged by the reception of him by the Corinthians "with fear and trembling," that is, with humility and respect for his position as a minister of Jesus Christ. In 1 Corinthians 2:3, we see that Paul himself came to the Corinthian church in "weakness and fear, and with much trembling" in regard to the huge responsibility and critical importance of the work in which he was engaged.

 

[mailmandan]

Ask King Solomon.

Wait let me guess...he was not a genuine saint.

Although Solomon certainly messed up and so did other OT saints, I'll leave that salvation judgment call in the hands of God. Judas Iscariot would have been a better example and strong evidence points to him not being a genuine saint. (John 6:64-71; 13:10-11)

 

[Magenta]

Although Solomon certainly messed up and so did other OT saints, I'll leave that salvation
judgment call in the hands of God. Judas Iscariot would have been a better example and
strong evidence points to him not being a genuine saint. (John 6:64-71; 13:10-11)

Judas did not believe from the beginning. To some that somehow made him magically saved.

 

[sawdust]

I know the terminology. Other than some who learned from him, I also know he's about the only one I ever heard address things like mechanics.



Probably yes & no. 20 years ago probably mainly yes.



Some things to address, but good for now.



Of course you may say whatever you'd like. Faith/Obedience is straight parallelism from the Word in more than a few places. Faith/Rest is a doctrinal teaching based in part in Hebrews3-4. For some connection of Faith/Obedience with rest in Heb3-4 see this parallelism:

18 And to whom did He swear that they would not enter His rest, but to those who did not obey? 19 So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief. (Heb. 3:18-19 NKJ) - disobedience is parallel with unbelief.

For more, carry this parallelism forward. When we're seeing disobedience, we're seeing unbelief:

6 Since therefore it remains that some must enter it, and those to whom it was first preached did not enter because of disobedience, (Heb. 4:6 NKJ)

11 Let us therefore be diligent to enter that rest, lest anyone fall according to the same example of disobedience. (Heb. 4:11 NKJ)

So, from (exegesis) Scriptures like this, and others, what say I is Faith/Obedience is straight parallelism from the Word. Using good old military terminology that you should be used to hearing, just follow orders. It's inextricably intertwined with Genuine Faith: 46 "But why do you call Me 'Lord, Lord,' and do not do the things which I say? (Lk. 6:46 NKJ).

BTW, there are commands in Heb4:1, Heb4:7, Heb4:11 and more as Heb4 continues through the end where we're commanded to come before the Grace Throne in times of need (in dealing with sin, which is disobedience, so apply this to all of the above for a mechanic re: rest).

From the above do you see any rest apart from obeying Him? The example is no rest due to unbelief/disobedience - no Faith/Obedience no rest.

I don't disagree but I'm still seeing us saying the same thing but using different words. I say faith/rest results in entering His rest. You say faith/obedience results in entering His rest. When we rest in the faith we have in facing whatever situation there is in our life, we are obeying Him.

Can you explain to me what it is you are seeing where we differ please?

 

[studier]

I don't disagree but I'm still seeing us saying the same thing but using different words. I say faith/rest results in entering His rest. You say faith/obedience results in entering His rest. When we rest in the faith we have in facing whatever situation there is in our life, we are obeying Him.

Can you explain to me what it is you are seeing where we differ please?

I think I already did with Scripture. The parallelism between Faith and Obedience in Scripture is pronounced once we see it. The problem with some Grace teachings is that they can lead to the thinking that obedience is a dirty word. It'll be denied, but it's there and I've dealt with it quite a bit.

Since we were discussing this, I pulled up Thieme's Faith-Rest writings. He mentioned obedience in 2 forms a total of 6 times in the entire document and not in very meaningful ways.

Years ago, I was led to do some studies on the concept. Every morning first thing for however many weeks or months I opened a paper Bible (not normal for me since I've been using languages-oriented digital study software for decades and before anything was on the internet), and I sat and simply wrote in the margins "obedience" every time I saw the concept or the forms of the word. It was quite enlightening, and this was after studying about 3,000+ hours of Thieme, reading all his books, being a "taper" for years, attending a phone hookup group for a time, attending his remote visits, going to seminary at his introduction of one, learning Greek, being ordained at Berachah, and teaching for some years.

Over the years combined with a few other major studies I was led to do, that study on obedience showed me that it is part of and attached to nearly every major word and concept pertinent to us as Christians. One of those studies was to identify and compile every command in the NC in every form of commands in the Greek language. Again, I did this before the internet was really functioning, so the study was not something I could find online - there really was no developed online yet.

When I did that study, I had some long-term Berachah students telling me to be careful because it could lead to legalism. So, learning God's Word and God's NC commands could be dangerous to my Faith??? Let's just put it this way, I didn't listen to them, and nothing can shake me from what God has taught me. I'm actually astounded still at how few are oriented to obeying our Lord God in Faith which is parallel to obedience in Scripture. I'm also aware of how it is given lip-service by others and how many will work around the language and concept of His commands - nearly 600 of them in the epistles alone. I'm also aware of how we can run up against some of them and remain in some form of inner rebellion and reasoning as to what they mean to us or what we may want them to mean irrespective of what they do mean.

Assuming you've gotten this far, thanks for reading. Suffice it to say that Faith/Obedience is well-attested in Scripture and it remains part of my Biblical vocabulary, and it has opened my understanding of our Text greatly. There is no true rest apart from Faith and thus apart from Faith/Obedience. From there comes the whole "works" discussion which is really a mess, and I've come to see it as being as much a debacle as many Calvinistic teachings.

 

[PaulThomson]

Is it at the point of faith? Satan would have you believe that’ faith” is the “end”, when actually, it is the beginning. Is it when we repent? When we actually “confess” Christ seems like a good place

We know Jesus shed His blood in His death on the cross. Romans 6:3, God says, Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His DEATH?Therefore, we were buried with Him through baptism into DEATH that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we should also walk in newness of life.”

From this scripture, I would say that we come into contact with the blood of Jesus when we are baptized into His death ( where His blood was shed).

This is in perfect harmony with what Ananias tells Saul in Acts 22:16–“ And now, what are you waiting for? Arise, and be baptized and WASH AWAY YOUR SINS.”

We understand that Jesus was already righteous before He was baptised, right? So, why was he baptised, then? Jesus says it was to fulfil all righteousness. What does that mean? It meant that the Father was telling Him to be baptised by John, so to do all the will of God, to fulfil all righteousness, Jesus needed to submit to baptism.

If we are made righteous by grace through faith, why do we submit to baptism? To fulfil all righteousness. Am I believing in Jesus
1. in order to escape hell? Or
2. in order to be subsumed into spiritual moksha/bliss when I die? Or
3. in order to begin a process of transformation where my life becomes conformed to His character and priorities.

If the third option, then even though I am already righteous by grace through faith, I submit to baptism, as Jesus did and for the same reason Jesus did.
The blood is applied when I choose to trust in Jesus. I am baptised in His name because I want to walk the walk of faith he walked to become perfected as He was perfected. Baptism does not wash away my sins, but it cleanses my conscience to do something in obedience to God, after a lifetime of acting in blatant disregard of God.

 

[studier]

The blood is applied when I choose to trust in Jesus.

Some interesting reasoning in your post, as is frequently the case.

Where do you see the quoted in Scripture?

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

Some interesting reasoning in your post, as is frequently the case.

Where do you see the quoted in Scripture?

1 peter 1: 18 knowing that you were not redeemed with [b]corruptible things, like silver or gold, from your aimless conduct received by tradition from your fathers, 19 but with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot.

what does the blood do? It justifies us

Romans 5:9
Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from wrath through Him.

And because of it. we are saved from wrath

because through this we have forgiveness of sins

Colossians 1:14
in whom we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins.


when does salvation occur? or forgiveness occur


1. We are saved through faith

Ephesians 2:8
For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God,

2. We are justified through faith

Romans 5:1
Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,


even abraham was justified by faith

4 What then shall we say that Abraham our father has found according to the flesh? 2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. 3 For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.” 4 Now to him who works, the wages are not counted [c]as grace but as debt.


I can go on and on, But do i really need to



when does this occur?

 

[TrustandObey]

At the point when in FAITH we Repent and call out to God. Everything thereafter is the RESULT of having been Born Again.

Would this be an example of what you are talking about?

Acts 22:16
New International Version
And now what are you waiting for? Get up, be baptized and wash your sins away, calling on his name.’

 

[mailmandan]

The blood is applied when I choose to trust in Jesus.

Romans 3:25 is a key verse that states, "Jesus Christ is God's propitiation (sacrifice or atonement) through faith in His blood."

 

[Bob-Carabbio]

Would this be an example of what you are talking about?

Acts 22:16
New International Version
And now what are you waiting for? Get up, be baptized and wash your sins away, calling on his name.’

SUre - although "Baptism" (immersion in water) has nothing to do with salvation. It's what you do AFTER you've been Born again as a testimony.

 

[mailmandan]

A man and a woman become united through their wedding vows and the ring symbolizes this. Just as we become united with Christ through faith and water baptism symbolizes this. A symbol is not the reality, but is a picture of the reality.

 

[MrE]

Is it at the point of faith? Satan would have you believe that’ faith” is the “end”, when actually, it is the beginning. Is it when we repent? When we actually “confess” Christ seems like a good place

We know Jesus shed His blood in His death on the cross. Romans 6:3, God says, Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His DEATH?Therefore, we were buried with Him through baptism into DEATH that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we should also walk in newness of life.”

From this scripture, I would say that we come into contact with the blood of Jesus when we are baptized into His death ( where His blood was shed).

This is in perfect harmony with what Ananias tells Saul in Acts 22:16–“ And now, what are you waiting for? Arise, and be baptized and WASH AWAY YOUR SINS.”

Whew! I read through the exhausting thread and somewhere along the way, lost the question.

I think it was a "when" question, rather than a what, or a how.

"At what point?"

'While we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.'

The shedding occurs before the application. Our example is the original passover. The lamb is set apart, and sacrificed. It's blood shed and it's purpose fulfilled- having given itself for all who partake and participate by accepting and applying that shed blood. The shedding has no effect or benefit unless that blood is applied to the doorposts, but for those that do, life is preserved. This has nothing to do with baptism, and everything to do with the shedding of blood and the application of it. One before the other.

Is the application of that shed blood an act of faith, or an act of obedience. You can't have one without the other, as several folks have pointed out already.

 

[studier]

The shedding occurs before the application.

And there are some interesting verb structures in Rom5 that may well be making this point rather than what some of the translations seem to be saying. IOW, they're focusing on what the shedding did and not that it's been applied.

Is the application of that shed blood an act of faith, or an act of obedience. You can't have one without the other, as several folks have pointed out already.

Thanks for this. I'm mainly just repeating it.

 

[MrE]

And there are some interesting verb structures in Rom5 that may well be making this point rather than what some of the translations seem to be saying. IOW, they're focusing on what the shedding did and not that it's been applied.

Thanks for this. I'm mainly just repeating it.

I rarely geek out on Greek. I barely understand Hebrew. English is my second language, but my first was just crying a lot.

 

[Bob-Carabbio]

Is the application of that shed blood an act of faith, or an act of obedience.

An ACT OF FAITH (Heb 11:1), of course. (Eph 2:8,9) Your ACCEPTANCE OF, and reaction TO the FAITH (The result of "Conviction of SIN" - God's WORD TO YOU - Rom 10:17) is your "Act of obedience" - the point at which the transaction is complete. Then Romans 8:29 kicks in, and your "Sanctification" (Maturing in the FAITH) begins. Any "good works" that you do are the RESULT of your new life in Christ.