At what point in our salvation is the blood of Christ applied?

[Inquisitor]

Your A! appears to be Plato-gnostic. Like Platonists and gnostics, the AI alleges a complete divorce between the pysical and spiritual. It sees spiritual and physical as absolutely separate realms. The OT Hebrews understood that there is an overlap between the spiritual and the physical. Physical things can also be spiritual.

So your AI lists -
1. Baptism: Physical → Spiritual
2. Circumcision: Fleshly → Spiritual
3. Bread & Manna: Physical → Christ as Spiritual Bread
4. Temple: Physical → Spiritual Body
5. Sacrifices: Animal → Christ’s Spiritual Sacrifice
6. Priesthood: Levitical → Christ & Believers
7. Mount Zion and Jerusalem: Earthly → Heavenly

These are biblically false dichotomies.
1. Water baptism before Jesus' resurrection (b J r) involved physical water and physical bodies, but had a spiritual intention (turning to Yahweh and receiving forgiveness of past sins).
Water baptism after Jesus's resurrection (a J r) involved physical water and physical bodies, but had a spiritual intention (turning to a risen physical Jesus and accepting the forgiveness of past sins He provided by His death).

2. Circumcision b J r involved a physical person being integrated into a community of physical people whose allegiance was to Yahweh by the removal of a foreskin hiding the source of physically manifest fruit.
Circumcision a J r involves a physical person being integrated into a community of physical people whose allegiance is to a risen physical Jesus by the removal hypocrisy that hides the reality of the heart, the source of physically manifest fruit.

3. Bread and Manna b J r were physical manifestations that fueled all kinds of invisible processes inside the physical person that enabled them to maintain the health of their physical body so it can express their will in physical actions.
The Bread of Life a J r is physical manifestations (the risen Christ and the scriptures) that fuels invisible processes inside physical persons that enables them to maintain the health of a physical body (their own or the church of which they are a member) so these can express the will of a risen physical Jesus.

4. The temple b J r was a physical assembly of stones etc. where God chose to manifest His abiding glory in a special visible way on the physical planet that is not seen outside of the temple.
The temple a J r is a physical assembly of physical "living stones" where a physically resurrected Jesus chooses to manifest His abiding glory in special visible ways on the physical planet that are not seen outside the temple.

5. Animal sacrifices b J r were physical animal being offered and accepted by God as substitutes for physical humans who admitted they were not physically expressing attitudes and behaviour Yahweh expected of his people.
Jesus sacrificed His physical body which was accepted by God as a substitute for physical humans who admit they have not physically expressed attitudes and behaviour that Jesus expects of His people.

6. Priesthood b J r entailed physical men appointed by Yahweh, to advocate for Yahweh to men and for men to Yahweh, with one High Priest to advocate on behalf of the other priests.
Priesthood a J r entails physical men appointed by God, to advocate for God to men and for men to God, with a risen physically Jesus as the one chosen advocate on behalf of all the other kingdom of priests.

Mount Zion b J r was a physical mountain upon which God's temple stood where God's people assembled for convocations and above which, in heaven, a non-terrestrial assembly also acknowledge Yahweh. as Lord
Mount Zion a J r is a geographically disperse physical location (wherever Gods' people on earth are assembling) and the non-terrestrial assembly in the heavens also gathered to acknowledge God and Jesus as Lord.

Yes, there are novel spiritual evolutions expressed in the New Covenant: deeper and more transformative spiritual realities. But there are still many of the same physical elements included in representing visibly the spiritual dynamics that are working out invisibly.

I disagree with your AI's radical separation between physical and spiritual. It is not Hebraic but Plato-gnostic

Ai quoted directly from the scripture.

What was your reply all about?

2 Corinthians 4:18
While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen; for the things which
are seen are temporal, but the things which are not seen are eternal.

1 Corinthians 4:20
For the kingdom of God does not consist in words but in power.

Nothing comes from your heart or your mind, Paul Thompson?

That is why we receive the gifts of the Holy Spirit.

So that we can love others!

AI quoted from the scripture but you did not.

 

[PaulThomson]

Ai quoted directly from the scripture.

What was your reply all about?

2 Corinthians 4:18
While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen; for the things which
are seen are temporal, but the things which are not seen are eternal.

1 Corinthians 4:20
For the kingdom of God does not consist in words but in power.

Nothing comes from your heart or your mind, Paul Thompson?

That is why we receive the gifts of the Holy Spirit.

So that we can love others!

AI quoted from the scripture but you did not.

You AI's list of seven contrasts reveals a Plato-gnostic false dichotomy between spiritual and physical.

So your AI lists -
1. Baptism: Physical → Spiritual
Both the baptism of John and the baptism of Jesus had both seen and unseen aspects, temporal and enduring aspects. Neither the turning to God that John's water baptism expressed, nor the turning to Jesus that the water baptism of Jesus expressed were supposed to be temporary. Both of the water baptisms and both the turning to God and the turning to Jesus were spiritual. According to the Hebrews, spiritual was not necessarily invisible. However, according to Plato-gnostic categories, the physical is purely phenomena (the changing world we perceive through our senses, and the spiritual is purely noumena (the true nature of reality existing as perfect invisible forms /ideas). IMHO that is not the way the Bible defines the spiritual. We are a spiritual house for the Lord, but we are physical.

2. Circumcision: Fleshly → Spiritual
1Pe 3:20 who formerly were disobedient, when once the Divine longsuffering waited[fn] in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water.
1Pe 3:21 There is also an antitype which now saves us—baptism (not the removal of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God), through the resurrection of Jesus Christ...

I would suggest that the Old Covenant's outwardly visible rite of circumcision, which was a spiritual rite that had both visible and invisible aspects, was replaced with the New Covenant outwardly visible rite of water baptism, which is a spiritual rite that has both visible and invisible aspects. An Old Testament Gentile who was committing Himself to Yahweh and His community through the outward rite of circumcision, was in circumsidion's invisible aspects, doing and experiencing the same things invisibly as a New Testament convert to Jesus does when they go through water baptism. When he was being circumcised in his flesh by men, the Old Testament convert was also having his heart circumcised by God, receiving a clean conscience before God.

The AI's invalid (IMHO) dichotomy between physical and spiritual is obvious in it's headings, which I quoted. Anyone can find scriptures that they can claim validated their ideas, even an AI. I agree with the AI's scriptures, but I disagree with the frmework through which the AI is evaluating the meaning of those verses.

1. Baptism: Physical → Spiritual
2. Circumcision: Fleshly → Spiritual
3. Bread & Manna: Physical → Christ as Spiritual Bread
4. Temple: Physical → Spiritual Body
5. Sacrifices: Animal → Christ’s Spiritual Sacrifice
6. Priesthood: Levitical → Christ & Believers
7. Mount Zion and Jerusalem: Earthly → Heavenly

 

[greenonions]

We cannot claim or follow the promises given to individuals. The promise that is given to us is in Acts 2.

Acts 2:37-41 NIV
When the people heard this, they were cut to the heart and said to Peter and the other apostles, “Brothers, what shall we do? Peter replied, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. The promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off—for all whom the Lord our God will call.” With many other words he warned them; and he pleaded with them, “Save yourselves from this corrupt generation.” Those who accepted his message were baptized, and about three thousand were added to their number that day.

There are many promises given to many people in the Bible but to simply claim that they apply to us is unwise.

There is this promise that applies to us:

Romans 4:22-25 NIV
This is why “it was credited to him as righteousness.” The words “it was credited to him” were written not for him alone, but also for us, to whom God will credit righteousness—for us who believe in him who raised Jesus our Lord from the dead. He was delivered over to death for our sins and was raised to life for our justification.

 

[Mem]

You AI's list of seven contrasts reveals a Plato-gnostic false dichotomy between spiritual and physical.

So your AI lists -
1. Baptism: Physical → Spiritual
Both the baptism of John and the baptism of Jesus had both seen and unseen aspects, temporal and enduring aspects. Neither the turning to God that John's water baptism expressed, nor the turning to Jesus that the water baptism of Jesus expressed were supposed to be temporary. Both of the water baptisms and both the turning to God and the turning to Jesus were spiritual. According to the Hebrews, spiritual was not necessarily invisible. However, according to Plato-gnostic categories, the physical is purely phenomena (the changing world we perceive through our senses, and the spiritual is purely noumena (the true nature of reality existing as perfect invisible forms /ideas). IMHO that is not the way the Bible defines the spiritual. We are a spiritual house for the Lord, but we are physical.

2. Circumcision: Fleshly → Spiritual
1Pe 3:20 who formerly were disobedient, when once the Divine longsuffering waited[fn] in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water.
1Pe 3:21 There is also an antitype which now saves us—baptism (not the removal of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God), through the resurrection of Jesus Christ...

I would suggest that the Old Covenant's outwardly visible rite of circumcision, which was a spiritual rite that had both visible and invisible aspects, was replaced with the New Covenant outwardly visible rite of water baptism, which is a spiritual rite that has both visible and invisible aspects. An Old Testament Gentile who was committing Himself to Yahweh and His community through the outward rite of circumcision, was in circumsidion's invisible aspects, doing and experiencing the same things invisibly as a New Testament convert to Jesus does when they go through water baptism. When he was being circumcised in his flesh by men, the Old Testament convert was also having his heart circumcised by God, receiving a clean conscience before God.

The AI's invalid (IMHO) dichotomy between physical and spiritual is obvious in it's headings, which I quoted. Anyone can find scriptures that they can claim validated their ideas, even an AI. I agree with the AI's scriptures, but I disagree with the frmework through which the AI is evaluating the meaning of those verses.

1. Baptism: Physical → Spiritual
2. Circumcision: Fleshly → Spiritual
3. Bread & Manna: Physical → Christ as Spiritual Bread
4. Temple: Physical → Spiritual Body
5. Sacrifices: Animal → Christ’s Spiritual Sacrifice
6. Priesthood: Levitical → Christ & Believers
7. Mount Zion and Jerusalem: Earthly → Heavenly

The relationship is illustrated scripturally in terms of types and shadows, that is the shadow of the spiritual can be seen in the natural. However, it's an exercise in futility to try and embrace a shadow. A shadow is merely a representative of sorts of the reality that casts it. But the reality doesn't disappear if there is no longer shadow, it's just that the light source no longer (sees the need, shall I say?) to generate it.

You AI's list of seven contrasts reveals a Plato-gnostic false dichotomy between spiritual and physical.

So your AI lists -
1. Baptism: Physical → Spiritual
Both the baptism of John and the baptism of Jesus had both seen and unseen aspects, temporal and enduring aspects. Neither the turning to God that John's water baptism expressed, nor the turning to Jesus that the water baptism of Jesus expressed were supposed to be temporary. Both of the water baptisms and both the turning to God and the turning to Jesus were spiritual. According to the Hebrews, spiritual was not necessarily invisible. However, according to Plato-gnostic categories, the physical is purely phenomena (the changing world we perceive through our senses, and the spiritual is purely noumena (the true nature of reality existing as perfect invisible forms /ideas). IMHO that is not the way the Bible defines the spiritual. We are a spiritual house for the Lord, but we are physical.

2. Circumcision: Fleshly → Spiritual
1Pe 3:20 who formerly were disobedient, when once the Divine longsuffering waited[fn] in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water.
1Pe 3:21 There is also an antitype which now saves us—baptism (not the removal of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God), through the resurrection of Jesus Christ...

I would suggest that the Old Covenant's outwardly visible rite of circumcision, which was a spiritual rite that had both visible and invisible aspects, was replaced with the New Covenant outwardly visible rite of water baptism, which is a spiritual rite that has both visible and invisible aspects. An Old Testament Gentile who was committing Himself to Yahweh and His community through the outward rite of circumcision, was in circumsidion's invisible aspects, doing and experiencing the same things invisibly as a New Testament convert to Jesus does when they go through water baptism. When he was being circumcised in his flesh by men, the Old Testament convert was also having his heart circumcised by God, receiving a clean conscience before God.

The AI's invalid (IMHO) dichotomy between physical and spiritual is obvious in it's headings, which I quoted. Anyone can find scriptures that they can claim validated their ideas, even an AI. I agree with the AI's scriptures, but I disagree with the frmework through which the AI is evaluating the meaning of those verses.

1. Baptism: Physical → Spiritual
2. Circumcision: Fleshly → Spiritual
3. Bread & Manna: Physical → Christ as Spiritual Bread
4. Temple: Physical → Spiritual Body
5. Sacrifices: Animal → Christ’s Spiritual Sacrifice
6. Priesthood: Levitical → Christ & Believers
7. Mount Zion and Jerusalem: Earthly → Heavenly

The relationship is illustrated scripturally in terms of types and shadows, that is the shadow of the spiritual can be seen in the natural. However, it's an exercise in futility to try and embrace a shadow. A shadow is merely a representative of sorts of the reality that casts it. But the reality doesn't disappear if there is no longer shadow, it's just that the light source no longer (sees the need, shall I say?) to generate it.

Speaking of Jesus, John the Baptist's statement that he must decrease and He increase, to me, generates an illustration of a shadow waning at the approach of noon until it is directly under the Man who casts it. And that seems to be mirrored by John's confession that it is him that should be baptized by Jesus. So, in short, I'm not convince that everyone should see us dunked in water as much that I am that everyone should see us dunked in Jesus.

 

[TrustandObey]

There is this promise that applies to us:

Romans 4:22-25 NIV
This is why “it was credited to him as righteousness.” The words “it was credited to him” were written not for him alone, but also for us, to whom God will credit righteousness—for us who believe in him who raised Jesus our Lord from the dead. He was delivered over to death for our sins and was raised to life for our justification.

Agreed, this promise like Acts 2:37-41 are written to apply directly to us.

Both verses direct us toward a resurrected Jesus.

32 God has raised this Jesus to life, and we are all witnesses of it. 33 Exalted to the right hand of God, he has received from the Father the promised Holy Spirit and has poured out what you now see and hear.

 

[PaulThomson]

The relationship is illustrated scripturally in terms of types and shadows, that is the shadow of the spiritual can be seen in the natural. However, it's an exercise in futility to try and embrace a shadow. A shadow is merely a representative of sorts of the reality that casts it. But the reality doesn't disappear if there is no longer shadow, it's just that the light source no longer (sees the need, shall I say?) to generate it.

My point is that both the shadow and the real are physical. The shadow is cast by a physical reality upon other physical realities. So, explanations of the real that are not attached to physical realities are not biblical, but philosophical.

 

[Mem]

My point is that both the shadow and the real are physical. The shadow is cast by a physical reality upon other physical realities. So, explanations of the real that are not attached to physical realities are not biblical, but philosophical.

I do suppose that there must a present need for shadow for whatever good reason. And hearing that in the world to come there will be no need for the sun, I can't help but wonder if there will be any shadow.

 

[PaulThomson]

I do suppose that there must a present need for shadow for whatever good reason. And hearing that in the world to come there will be no need for the sun, I can't help but wonder if there will be any shadow.

Rev 21:23
The city had no need of the sun or of the moon to shine in it,[fn] for the glory[fn] of God illuminated it. The Lamb is its light.

Rev 22:5
There shall be no night there: They need no lamp nor light of the sun, for the Lord God gives them light. And they shall reign forever and ever.

It's the city to come that has no need of the sun, Mem, because the Lord's glory lights it. Beyond the precincts of the city, they may well need the sun. After all, it does not say the city had no need of a sun, which could allude to there being no sun. But it says the city has no need of THE sun, implying there is a son, but the HOLY CITY does not need THE sun.

I agree that the shadow is not the antitype. What I am pushing back on is the AI assumption that because the shadow is physical , the antitype must be not physical.