Authority of Scripture

[Dan58]

Paul knew all of it without a Bible.

Paul wrote most of the new testament, and he knew the gospel from those who walked with Christ and by revelation. He had oral confirmation prior to written confirmation. We don't have the same luxury, which is why it was all written down for us. Without the biblical record, we wouldn't know much about any of it. jmo

 

[secularhermit]

If that "authority" comes to enforce the RCC´s teachings... I passed by!

 

[GoodGnus]

Not so! The OT was and is regarded as Scripture ans as the NT writings came to be recognized as inspired they became Scripture long before the Nicine council

My point is that the belief in what is taught in the NT scriptures predates the scriptures. Thus, we cannot say that the belief is based on those scriptures.

 

[peacefulbeliever]

My point is that the belief in what is taught in the NT scriptures predates the scriptures. Thus, we cannot say that the belief is based on those scriptures.

Oops and that is what I based my previous post on - NT scripture - BUT the belief is based upon what the apostles were eye witnesses of and therefore formed the creed. I'm sure if you tried hard enough, you can also find scripture references prophesying the birth, death and resurrection of our Lord Jesus Christ, and his ascending to the right hand of God in the OT scripture.

 

[atwhatcost]

What would you say to someone who said:

I believe in God, the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth. And in Jesus Christ, His only Son, our Lord, who was conceived by the Holy Spirit,born of the virgin Mary,suffered under Pontius Pilate,was crucified, died and was buried.He descended into hell.On the third day He rose again from the dead.He ascended into heaven and sits at the right hand of God the Father Almighty. From thence He will come to judge the living and the dead. I believe in the Holy Spirit, the holy Christian Church, the communion of saints, the forgiveness of sins, the resurrection of the body, and the life everlasting.


But maintained that scripture was no more authoritative than "Pilgrim's Progress". I am not asking this because I dont have an answer; I am asking because I am amazed at how many Christians dont have a good answer for this. I would ask you to reflect on the question and pray that the answer you come to will be edifying.

My dad is like that, so it doesn't take much reflection.

My answer is something that tends to infuriate him. "If you don't believe God gave us his words in the Bible, then what's the difference between that and simply making up your own god?"

 

[atwhatcost]

Presbyterians, and Lutherans say it too, not just the Catholics. I've been to all three at one time or another. Resiting this apostles creed has become no more than a ritual, without true faith in what it says. There is nothing wrong with it in itself. It's Pharisaical if a person never stops to think about what they are saying.

Thank you. I felt like I've said that some time since 1976, (when I was Catholic), but wasn't sure, since it's still been a while. I also said it as a Presby.

 

[GoodGnus]

But the Creed was formulated after the Apostles had written, i.e. after 100AD.
By 'it's', I was referring to the Creeds, IOW the foundation of the Creed were the letters written early on by the Apostles.

Sorry for the confusion. I was not suggesting that someone believed in the council Nicaea but not Scripture. I was suggesting that someone could believed in the crucial elements of our faith but could be unsure of why they should believe in scripture.

 

[atwhatcost]

If it is in the Bible it is true. Everything in the Bible is true. It is the Living Word.
I was born catholic, went to catholic church, and school until I was 17 years old. I didn't learn anything about the life of Christ but I knew about the roles that the Pope, Bishop, and Priest had. A friend led me to start attending a Baptist Church in my adulthood and I was born again. I learned about walking with Jesus, His love for me, and only then I was able to leave the catholic guilt behind. I know I may be told off by catholics for my little post here but this is my experience. Being born again changed me in ways I never thought possible. I felt alive. Catholics really you should experience this, it's the only way to heaven.

Well, technically not everything in the Bible is true. That bad advice Job's friends and wife gave to him, that is all recorded in the Bible, isn't true. It's bad advice.

 

[MarcR]

My point is that the belief in what is taught in the NT scriptures predates the scriptures. Thus, we cannot say that the belief is based on those scriptures.

My point is that starting with Gen 3:15, progressing through Job 19:25, Ps 22, Is 7:14, Is 49:6, Is 53, Jer 31, Hos 2,
and Zec chapters 12-14: lay sufficient foundation for the apostles creed.

 

[atwhatcost]

What is "its"? Scriptures foundation or the foundation of the creed.

Scripture cannot be the foundation of the creed as the elements of the creed (belief that Jesus is the Son of God) predate the writing of the New Testament and are not contained explicitly in the Old Testament.

Huh? Your logic is faulty.

The NT was written between 20-70 year after Christ ascended. That creed was written much later. And, of course Jesus being the Son of God wasn't known in the OT. They knew the Savior was coming, but no one knew his name until he proved himself to be the Savior.

The way you have this analyzed is much like assuming Hemingway first made up the words "For Whom the Bells Toll." No, Hemingway wrote a book with that as a title. Those words are first cited by John Donne, a poet. He's also probably not the first to use the phrase.

 

[Viligant_Warrior]

Well, technically not everything in the Bible is true. That bad advice Job's friends and wife gave to him, that is all recorded in the Bible, isn't true. It's bad advice.

But it is true that even the best, most well-meaning people give bad advice.

 

[atwhatcost]

So anyone making this confession the day after Pentecost was "meaningless"? .. there was no scripture to believe in.

​Prove to me someone made that entire confession the day after Pentecost.

 

[atwhatcost]

Paul knew all of it without a Bible.

I'm sorry. When you asked your original question, I thought you wanted obvious answers to an obvious question. Now I see you have some agenda without having a clue who knew what when. (Like you think that creed was around at Pentecost, and now you don't think Paul knew his Bible. Of course Paul knew his Bible, he was a Pharisee. They all knew their version of the Bible better than we do today.)

So now that I find out you're out to debate something with nothing but your imagination to base it on, I'm out of here. You came to a gun fight with a knife and think you have the answer. You need ammunition and you don't even know yet that you have none.

 

[DesiredHaven]

The scriptures they had just bore witness to Jesus Christ (in their present) all that was left was WHO the scriptures were talking about (such can be demonstrated for the most part in the place where Philip preached Jesus Christ out of the book of Isaiah) even as Jesus in Luke 4 did the same (and there he was basically saying, "thats me") or they are they which testify of me.

They had scripture (even the law and the prophets) which were read at every synagouge in every city, even the eunuch had his own book he was reading from in his chariot.

I dont get why they did not have the scriptures, they preached Jesus Christ out of the law and the prophets

 

[GoodGnus]

The scriptures they had just bore witness to Jesus Christ (in their present) all that was left was WHO the scriptures were talking about (such can be demonstrated for the most part in the place where Philip preached Jesus Christ out of the book of Isaiah) even as Jesus in Luke 4 did the same (and there he was basically saying, "thats me") or they are they which testify of me.

They had scripture (even the law and the prophets) which were read at every synagouge in every city, even the eunuch had his own book he was reading from in his chariot.

I dont get why they did not have the scriptures, they preached Jesus Christ out of the law and the prophets

hile it is true that many of the early believers were very well acquainted with OT scripture there were some, such as the jailer at Philipi that came to know Christ that we can presume were not well read in OT scripture.

When Paul preached to the Athenians he made no reference to any OT scriptures instead, he quoted Greek poets.

Paul said he would become all things to all men that he might by some means save some. There were some that were converted and baptized by Paul that were not Jewish and we have no record of Paul admonishing them to read the OT.

 

[GoodGnus]

I'm sorry. When you asked your original question, I thought you wanted obvious answers to an obvious question. Now I see you have some agenda without having a clue who knew what when. (Like you think that creed was around at Pentecost, and now you don't think Paul knew his Bible. Of course Paul knew his Bible, he was a Pharisee. They all knew their version of the Bible better than we do today.)

So now that I find out you're out to debate something with nothing but your imagination to base it on, I'm out of here. You came to a gun fight with a knife and think you have the answer. You need ammunition and you don't even know yet that you have none.

I am sorry to see you go. The OT is not the Bible.

 

[GoodGnus]

My point is that starting with Gen 3:15, progressing through Job 19:25, Ps 22, Is 7:14, Is 49:6, Is 53, Jer 31, Hos 2,
and Zec chapters 12-14: lay sufficient foundation for the apostles creed.

Foundation yes... But my question is how do you tell someone they need to believe in the Bible OT AND NT to be saved when people were being saved before there was a NT?

 

[oldthennew]

sorry to see you go. The OT is not the Bible.

the Bible is ONE BOOK = OT=NT -

what you are saying here is a kin to an oxymoron -

 

[mwc68]

Oops and that is what I based my previous post on - NT scripture - BUT the belief is based upon what the apostles were eye witnesses of and therefore formed the creed. I'm sure if you tried hard enough, you can also find scripture references prophesying the birth, death and resurrection of our Lord Jesus Christ, and his ascending to the right hand of God in the OT scripture.

try the great book of Isaiah

 

[MarcR]

Foundation yes... But my question is how do you tell someone they need to believe in the Bible OT AND NT to be saved when people were being saved before there was a NT?

They don't need to believe the OT and NT to be saved. They only need the simple gospel message to be saved.

However failure to recognize scripture as authoritative is good evidence of being unsaved. The indwelling Holy Spirit would not lead a believer to such a conclusion.