Baptism for the dead (1 Cor 15:29)
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Ive always been curious also because there’s nothing else in scripture regarding it that I’ve ever seen or notices at least
Its pretty clear what he’s saying but the idea is foreign to me because there isn’t any other scripture about it
“Now if there is no resurrection, what will those do who are baptized for the dead? If the dead are not raised at all, why are people baptized for them?”
what he’s saying is clear there was a group of believers that were practicing baptism for the dead Paul is saying “ why would you bother doing that if there’s no resurrection ?
again im not agreeing with baotism for the dead because I don’t know anything about it but this single verse it’s not enough to create a doctrine or approval but it is mysterious to me always has been
Paul’s makin a strong point about this subject some we’re struggling with
“Now if Christ be preached that he rose from the dead, how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead?
“But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen: and if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain. Yea, and we are found false witnesses of God; because we have testified of God that he raised up Christ: whom he raised not up, if so be that the dead rise not. For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised: and if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins. Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished. If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable.”
1 Corinthians 15:13-19 KJV
He then uses the example why get baptized for them if theres no resurrection “ as he has used several points to make e statement “ there is absolutely a resurrection of the dead or everything we believe is meaningless and false “
So irs not a mystery what he’s saying but that part of doctrine is too mysterious to begin baptizing people for the dead we don’t know anything about it was it a thing paul approved of ? Or was he just drawing an example from thier oractices making the point about the resurrection ?
I’ve never found more in scripture itch fails to meet the two and theee witness requirement at least in my own belief
“This is the third time I am coming to you. In the mouth of two or three witnesses shall every word be established.”
2 Corinthians 13:1 KJV
I’ve never heard another biblical witness concerning baptism of the dead so I’ve concluded it’s left a mystery to me just my own belief and opinion though and Paul’s point is also taken there is 100 percent a resurrection of the dead
Its pretty clear what he’s saying but the idea is foreign to me because there isn’t any other scripture about it
“Now if there is no resurrection, what will those do who are baptized for the dead? If the dead are not raised at all, why are people baptized for them?”
what he’s saying is clear there was a group of believers that were practicing baptism for the dead Paul is saying “ why would you bother doing that if there’s no resurrection ?
again im not agreeing with baotism for the dead because I don’t know anything about it but this single verse it’s not enough to create a doctrine or approval but it is mysterious to me always has been
Paul’s makin a strong point about this subject some we’re struggling with
“Now if Christ be preached that he rose from the dead, how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead?
“But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen: and if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain. Yea, and we are found false witnesses of God; because we have testified of God that he raised up Christ: whom he raised not up, if so be that the dead rise not. For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised: and if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins. Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished. If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable.”
1 Corinthians 15:13-19 KJV
He then uses the example why get baptized for them if theres no resurrection “ as he has used several points to make e statement “ there is absolutely a resurrection of the dead or everything we believe is meaningless and false “
So irs not a mystery what he’s saying but that part of doctrine is too mysterious to begin baptizing people for the dead we don’t know anything about it was it a thing paul approved of ? Or was he just drawing an example from thier oractices making the point about the resurrection ?
I’ve never found more in scripture itch fails to meet the two and theee witness requirement at least in my own belief
“This is the third time I am coming to you. In the mouth of two or three witnesses shall every word be established.”
2 Corinthians 13:1 KJV
I’ve never heard another biblical witness concerning baptism of the dead so I’ve concluded it’s left a mystery to me just my own belief and opinion though and Paul’s point is also taken there is 100 percent a resurrection of the dead
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Thanks Komentaja, for your question. Mormans have a misunderstanding of this to mean that someone who is already physically dead can be baptised by proxy (or at least that's my understanding of the Mormon approach). However, this is not what the verse means in my opinion. When the Bible mentions the dead being raised, to me that means the new birth from the old self, being born again to believe in Jesus, have trust in God and his word, and to have a relationship with God. So to me, the dead being raised means Christ entered in to a persons heart and mind and that person, who used to be dead in trespasses and sins, spiritually speaking, is now made alive in Christ. The term bapised, means to cleanse, and is speaking about being forgiven, that is, washed or cleansed free from the stain of sin. This happens because Christ died in their place and washed them by his word. Don't think of baptism as a ceremony. To me, that is not what this verse means. It is saying that a person was dead in sins spiritually, and then because of Christ's resurrection, they are born again, effectively raised from the dead, spiritually speaking. As soon as they are raised from the dead in the inner man, they are cleansed from the stain ad consequence of sin (not the ceremony of baptism, but baptism meaning cleansed by Christ). The verse says that if Christ couldn't raise people from their sinful nature to a new life in him, then there is not forgiveness, being cleansed (baptised).
Great question:
I found this in the archives: Baptism For the Dead (R Kurth)
Please Be Encouraged and Edified...
I found this in the archives: Baptism For the Dead (R Kurth)
Please Be Encouraged and Edified...
yeah and who’s to say he said a bunch more about it explained it and it’s not in his epistles ?
Its something we simply don’t have enough I formation on to decode one way or the other
There’s no other support of it and there’s also no one saying it’s false in scripture
It fails to be established as doctrine or false doctrine in scripture
Its something we simply don’t have enough I formation on to decode one way or the other
There’s no other support of it and there’s also no one saying it’s false in scripture
It fails to be established as doctrine or false doctrine in scripture
See what the subject is though ? Why he’s saying it all if we read chapters and sections instead of single verses the context helps
“Now if Christ be preached that he rose from the dead, how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead? But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen: and if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain. Yea, and we are found false witnesses of God; because we have testified of God that he raised up Christ: whom he raised not up, if so be that the dead rise not. For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised: and if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins. Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished. If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable. But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? why are they then baptized for the dead?”
1 Corinthians 15:12-23, 29 KJV
see how the entire subject is “ isn th re a resurrection of the dead or isn’t there and what does that mean to our faith ? It wouldn’t make sense for him to be speaking of it in a different manner than the point he’s addressing and making it seems he’s making the argument that the dead being raised up just like Jesus was is absolutely essential to Christian faith
If we end at death and we aren’t raised to life for eternity with Jesus everything we’ve ever believed is a lie and meaningless , all of the things we insure because of our faith is ignorance , all the prayers and praises would be irrelevant babble and it would make Jesus rising from the dead myth which only fools would buy into we’d be wasting our lives chasing eternal life if we aren’t raised up from death
it seems to be our challenging them on the matter
“ if there’s no resurrection like some of you think , why do you get baptized for the dead if they are dead forever ? “ it would just be another meaningless thing gays built on a lie if there was no resurrection “
sort of that whole chapter is making a few points with alot of examples and words as paul always tends to do
It could be that they were practicing getting baptized for people they knew and loved who had died without hearing and believing the gospel , and Paul is asking rhetorically
aid you don’t believe in life after death y are you getting baptized for those who died ? This isn’t an approval by Paul but a challenge to those claiming there’s no resurrection just sea of from something they were doing and practicing to challenge them in faith
“Now if Christ be preached that he rose from the dead, how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead? But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen: and if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain. Yea, and we are found false witnesses of God; because we have testified of God that he raised up Christ: whom he raised not up, if so be that the dead rise not. For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised: and if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins. Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished. If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable. But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? why are they then baptized for the dead?”
1 Corinthians 15:12-23, 29 KJV
see how the entire subject is “ isn th re a resurrection of the dead or isn’t there and what does that mean to our faith ? It wouldn’t make sense for him to be speaking of it in a different manner than the point he’s addressing and making it seems he’s making the argument that the dead being raised up just like Jesus was is absolutely essential to Christian faith
If we end at death and we aren’t raised to life for eternity with Jesus everything we’ve ever believed is a lie and meaningless , all of the things we insure because of our faith is ignorance , all the prayers and praises would be irrelevant babble and it would make Jesus rising from the dead myth which only fools would buy into we’d be wasting our lives chasing eternal life if we aren’t raised up from death
it seems to be our challenging them on the matter
“ if there’s no resurrection like some of you think , why do you get baptized for the dead if they are dead forever ? “ it would just be another meaningless thing gays built on a lie if there was no resurrection “
sort of that whole chapter is making a few points with alot of examples and words as paul always tends to do
It could be that they were practicing getting baptized for people they knew and loved who had died without hearing and believing the gospel , and Paul is asking rhetorically
aid you don’t believe in life after death y are you getting baptized for those who died ? This isn’t an approval by Paul but a challenge to those claiming there’s no resurrection just sea of from something they were doing and practicing to challenge them in faith
L
True. The entire passage is a treaties affirming the resurrection of the dead. Its not proper to rip a passage out of that text and assert a meaning and establish a doctrine. It is plausible that what youre saying is indeed the case about Paul's rhetoric, he is cronic with it in his writtings. And there just isnt any text clarifying the statement; so I stick with what i know to be true by confirmation of other scriptures. Im not willing to invent any new doctrine especially something that would certainly require more scripture to confirm.
We are simply speculating what is intended, Im sure the Corinthians new precisely what he meant.
We are simply speculating what is intended, Im sure the Corinthians new precisely what he meant.
This is a difficult passage when we only recognize one type of baptism: in water.
However, Jesus is promised to baptize us with the Holy Spirit and with fire.
"I (this is John the Baptist) baptize you with water for repentance, but after me will come One more powerful than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He (this is Christ) will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and with fire."
The baptism of the Holy Spirit is the baptism of power.
"But you shall receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you; and you shall be witnesses to Me in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the end of the earth.”
The baptism of fire is suffering so that we might learn obedience.
So let's look at "the dead" for whom some have been baptized with the Holy Spirit (power) and fire (suffering).
1And you (this is the Ephesians) He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins, 2in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience, 3among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others.
4But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, (because this is present tense, this is not about going to heaven but about being received into the same place as the Lord: with power and authority) 7that in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in His kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9not of works, lest anyone should boast. 10For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.
Paul understood that the power given to him (baptism of the Holy Spirit) and the suffering he endured (baptism of fire) was for the benefit of those to whom he was sent. His message, properly believed, delivered the dead from the kingdom of darkness and conveyed them into the kingdom of the Son of His love.
He has delivered us from the power of darkness and conveyed us into the kingdom of the Son of His love
Power is required to convey people from one kingdom to another.
Now, this is the next chapter of Ephesians (3):
For this reason I, Paul, the prisoner of Christ Jesus for you Gentiles— 2 if indeed you have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which was given to me for you (Paul understood that the grace he was given by Christ Jesus was for the benefit of the Ephesians to whom he was sent... who were dead in their sins), 3 how that by revelation He made known to me the mystery (as I have briefly written already, 4 by which, when you read, you may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ), 5 which in other ages was not made known to the sons of men, as it has now been revealed by the Spirit to His holy apostles and prophets.
Paul was baptized with fire and with the Holy Spirit for the benefit of the dead: i.e. he suffered and received power from Christ not for himself but for the sake of the ones to whom he was sent: he was baptized for the dead.
Let's look at the passage again with a verse that appears prior to:
But now Christ is risen from the dead, and has become the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep.
Furstfruits is a standard for the harvest. You know much about the harvest by examining the firstfruits. The word also assumes on a continuing harvest, that there are more to come. Now the verse:
Otherwise, what will they do who are baptized for the dead, if the dead do not rise at all?(Paul is saying: what was the value of the power I was given or the things I suffered if the dead do not arise in the likeness of Christ?) Why then are they baptized for the dead? (Why go through fiery trials and if there is no value?) 30 And why do we stand in jeopardy every hour? (And, why would anyone put themselves in danger if there is no accompanying promise of life from the Lord?) 31 I affirm, by the boasting in you which I have in Christ Jesus our Lord, I die daily. 32 If, in the manner of men, I have fought with beasts at Ephesus, what advantage is it to me? If the dead do not rise, “Let us eat and drink, for tomorrow we die!” (In the last sentence he is speaking like a fool to make a point: we might as well party if there is no point to any of what I am to you in Christ)
Perhaps this provided some light.
However, Jesus is promised to baptize us with the Holy Spirit and with fire.
"I (this is John the Baptist) baptize you with water for repentance, but after me will come One more powerful than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He (this is Christ) will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and with fire."
The baptism of the Holy Spirit is the baptism of power.
"But you shall receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you; and you shall be witnesses to Me in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the end of the earth.”
The baptism of fire is suffering so that we might learn obedience.
So let's look at "the dead" for whom some have been baptized with the Holy Spirit (power) and fire (suffering).
1And you (this is the Ephesians) He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins, 2in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience, 3among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others.
4But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, (because this is present tense, this is not about going to heaven but about being received into the same place as the Lord: with power and authority) 7that in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in His kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9not of works, lest anyone should boast. 10For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.
Paul understood that the power given to him (baptism of the Holy Spirit) and the suffering he endured (baptism of fire) was for the benefit of those to whom he was sent. His message, properly believed, delivered the dead from the kingdom of darkness and conveyed them into the kingdom of the Son of His love.
He has delivered us from the power of darkness and conveyed us into the kingdom of the Son of His love
Power is required to convey people from one kingdom to another.
Now, this is the next chapter of Ephesians (3):
For this reason I, Paul, the prisoner of Christ Jesus for you Gentiles— 2 if indeed you have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which was given to me for you (Paul understood that the grace he was given by Christ Jesus was for the benefit of the Ephesians to whom he was sent... who were dead in their sins), 3 how that by revelation He made known to me the mystery (as I have briefly written already, 4 by which, when you read, you may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ), 5 which in other ages was not made known to the sons of men, as it has now been revealed by the Spirit to His holy apostles and prophets.
Paul was baptized with fire and with the Holy Spirit for the benefit of the dead: i.e. he suffered and received power from Christ not for himself but for the sake of the ones to whom he was sent: he was baptized for the dead.
Let's look at the passage again with a verse that appears prior to:
But now Christ is risen from the dead, and has become the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep.
Furstfruits is a standard for the harvest. You know much about the harvest by examining the firstfruits. The word also assumes on a continuing harvest, that there are more to come. Now the verse:
Otherwise, what will they do who are baptized for the dead, if the dead do not rise at all?(Paul is saying: what was the value of the power I was given or the things I suffered if the dead do not arise in the likeness of Christ?) Why then are they baptized for the dead? (Why go through fiery trials and if there is no value?) 30 And why do we stand in jeopardy every hour? (And, why would anyone put themselves in danger if there is no accompanying promise of life from the Lord?) 31 I affirm, by the boasting in you which I have in Christ Jesus our Lord, I die daily. 32 If, in the manner of men, I have fought with beasts at Ephesus, what advantage is it to me? If the dead do not rise, “Let us eat and drink, for tomorrow we die!” (In the last sentence he is speaking like a fool to make a point: we might as well party if there is no point to any of what I am to you in Christ)
Perhaps this provided some light.
Even though baptism for the dead is not biblical, the scripture speaks to the fact that born again believers realized their own water baptism played a part in the NT spiritual rebirth. As such, they were doing it in hopes of changing the fate of relatives and/or friends who had not been obedient to the command before meeting their demise.
Well yeah anyone can have thier own opinion on it
a what I’m saying and what I said is the scriptire never says what your implying it leaves it as a mystery ot doesn’t affirm that it’s doctrine , and it doesn’t reject it as false doctrine
but yeah your definately entitled to have your opinion my only point was the scripture in the Bible never addresses thing else about the subject so anything we decide is an opinion that’s not actually informed
Do I personally think we should create a doctrine about baptism for dead people from that verse ? Absolutely not in any way is what’s there sufficient to include it in doctrine
Do I know whether they were doing some false practice not approved by Paul the apostle ? Absolutely not in any way do I myself have enough information in the Bible to conclude
Its interesting though that Paul would use a false doctrine as an example and then never touch on it being false
abut I don’t have an issue with you believing it’s a false doctrine because o don’t recognize it as doctrine myself I just simply don’t know because I’ve never seen another mention of it in the Bible
We simply as living people cannot and don’t fully understand ll the details of what goes on after a person dies
can someone who died long ago not hearing the gospel still have the gospel preached to them ? Since Christ entered death and rose up ?
“For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: by which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.”
1 Peter 3:18-20 KJV
if they can have the gospel preached to then in death I really understands what else is there after the veil is lifted ?
all I’m saying is I personally don’t think there’s enough scriptire for me to conclude either way I would t want to make claims I’m not sure of either way all things are possible with God though
Anyways I respect your opinion have nonissue with it I just see it differently as a mystery either way and definately not something I would practice or approve of as truth because again I don’t believe there’s anything else on the Bible about it so I’m in that place leads curious but never conclude because I lack the information either way regarding this very specific subject
a what I’m saying and what I said is the scriptire never says what your implying it leaves it as a mystery ot doesn’t affirm that it’s doctrine , and it doesn’t reject it as false doctrine
but yeah your definately entitled to have your opinion my only point was the scripture in the Bible never addresses thing else about the subject so anything we decide is an opinion that’s not actually informed
Do I personally think we should create a doctrine about baptism for dead people from that verse ? Absolutely not in any way is what’s there sufficient to include it in doctrine
Do I know whether they were doing some false practice not approved by Paul the apostle ? Absolutely not in any way do I myself have enough information in the Bible to conclude
Its interesting though that Paul would use a false doctrine as an example and then never touch on it being false
abut I don’t have an issue with you believing it’s a false doctrine because o don’t recognize it as doctrine myself I just simply don’t know because I’ve never seen another mention of it in the Bible
We simply as living people cannot and don’t fully understand ll the details of what goes on after a person dies
can someone who died long ago not hearing the gospel still have the gospel preached to them ? Since Christ entered death and rose up ?
“For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: by which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.”
1 Peter 3:18-20 KJV
if they can have the gospel preached to then in death I really understands what else is there after the veil is lifted ?
all I’m saying is I personally don’t think there’s enough scriptire for me to conclude either way I would t want to make claims I’m not sure of either way all things are possible with God though
Anyways I respect your opinion have nonissue with it I just see it differently as a mystery either way and definately not something I would practice or approve of as truth because again I don’t believe there’s anything else on the Bible about it so I’m in that place leads curious but never conclude because I lack the information either way regarding this very specific subject