Baptism of the Holy Spirit

[BillG]

Brutal. I've seen the same thing happen to others. The worst apart ? ... some never recover Today's "tongues" doesn't remotely resemble what happened at pentecost. There's a good reason for that. It isn't miraculous biblical tongues as occurred during the apostolic era. And quite frankly, I don't concern myself with how many line up to tell me otherwise.

Very sad that some never recover.
I do think though that God will finish what he has started in a believer.
I went MIA for a long time but I never lost my faith in Jesus.

I have posted in tongues and I can count those times on one hand.
Every time I have been on my own, in my quite time and even then I did not know I was doing it.

Tongues is very decisive. Yet the focus can be on that to the expense of love.

 

[plainguy]

I have posted in tongues and I can count those times on one hand.
Every time I have been on my own, in my quiet time and even then I did not know I was doing it.

Tongues is very decisive. Yet the focus can be on that to the expense of love.

Not trying to be sarcastic Bill .. but a question ? How do you know you were posting in tongues if you didn't know you were doing it ?

 

[BillG]

Not trying to be sarcastic Bill .. but a question ? How do you know you were posting in tongues if you didn't know you were doing it ?

Don't worry I know your not being sarcastic and I thank you for asking in the way you have. Refreshing indeed.
I haven't conveyed it well.

I was aware I was but it just happened. Not forced but just happened.

 

[Lafftur]

I must admit I find this whole area confusing.

My understanding is that when we come to faith we are baptised in the Holy Spirit. We are indwelt by the Holy Spirit.

1 Corinthians 12:13
13 For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body—whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free—and have all been made to drink into one Spirit.

So initially I would say that we have the Holy Spirit in us to conform us to the image of Jesus. Which for me is love and fruit.

Galatians 5:22-26


22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness, self-control. Against such there is no law. 24 And those who are Christ's have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. 25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit. 26 Let us not become conceited, provoking one another, envying one another.

Then I see that the Holy Spirit works in the following way.

1 Corinthians 12:7-11
7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to each one for the profit of all: 8 for to one is given the word of wisdom through the Spirit, to another the word of knowledge through the same Spirit, 9 to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healings by the same Spirit, 10 to another the working of miracles, to another prophecy, to another discerning of spirits, to another different kinds of tongues, to another the interpretation of tongues. 11 But one and the same Spirit works all these things, distributing to each one individually as He wills.

These are gifts that are given to believers for the following purpose

1 Corinthians 12:4-7


4 There are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit. 5 There are differences of ministries, but the same Lord. 6 And there are diversities of activities, but it is the same God who works all in all. 7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to each one for the profit of all:

To profit the church.

But having said that I do not negate that such gifts are given to us to reveal Jesus to non believers.


I constantly pray that today we do all the things that Jesus did when here on earth.
Miracles, healings and so on.

So for me my focus is on Galatians and not the gifts. At times I have manifest gifts but only to those in the body.
When doing so I have just prayed "God what is it you want to do here?
Which to me relates back to Galatians.

But in a sense to me it's natural and not supernatural to a believer. It's just following the promoting of the Holy Spirit.

But then I see and hear that there is some hyper emotional thing going on.

That's what I do not get. A supernatural, emotional feeling that should accompany the Holy Spirit doing something in us and through us. It's the emotional thing I do not get.

Sorry for the long post.

And I'm truly happy for anyone to help me here with my confusion.

Bill

Well said! What a beautiful and sincere, straight from the heart post! The Lord bless you, BillG with His fullness. Peace.

 

[Lafftur]

When I look at it biblically.. the first thing I spot is Jesus saying He will baptise the disciples with the Holy Spirit.

What I notice about this is..

They are already converted.. already eternally saved
They are a group.. rather than individuals alone

So where do you find in the bible it bring for eternal salvation and for individuals alone?

Hello wattie, great questions! Questions are evidence that you are seeking for truth. Excellent!

I'll share with you what I understand and believe, however, what you believe will always be up to you, because I could be wrong.

John the Baptist was baptizing with water for remission of sins to prepare the way of the Lord, the One coming that would baptize us with the Holy Spirit and Fire.

So, there are actually 3 baptisms:

Water - God has allowed 'man' to perform this one, thus, we baptize each other in water publicly declaring our belief in Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior.

Holy Spirit - Jesus baptizes us with the Holy Spirit, which indwells us and seals us for the Kingdom of God. The job of the Holy Spirit is to manifest in us the fruit, gifts as He wills, as well as teaching us, leading, guiding, comforting, instructing, counseling and showing us things to come - preparing us for the New Heaven and New Earth that is to come.

Fire - Jesus baptizes with supernatural fire that consumes our carnal, flesh nature - like a burnt offering - totally consumed, nothing left. The flesh cannot enter the Kingdom of God. The more I choose to be led by the Spirit and not the flesh, then my flesh is being consumed in supernatural fire and I am becoming more and more able to love God and all people.

Jesus had to go away so the Comforter - the Holy Spirit could come and truly, He has come and is indwelling and available to all believers.

SIDE NOTE: Planet Earth is also going through the 3 baptisms - Water, Holy Spirit, Fire.

Water - Noah's Flood
Holy Spirit - God pouring out His Spirit on all flesh
Fire - at the very end, the earth will be consumed with fire, just like Sodom and Gomorrah

 

[Speak2Me]

Every scripture concerning receiving the Holy Spirit at salvation never uses the word baptize or baptism with/in the Holy Spirit.

Mark 1
​

4John the Baptist appeared in the wilderness preaching a baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sins. 5And all the country of Judea was going out to him, and all the people of Jerusalem; and they were being baptized by him in the Jordan River, confessing their sins. 6John was clothed with camel’s hair and wore a leather belt around his waist, and his diet was locusts and wild honey. 7And he was preaching, and saying, “After me One is coming who is mightier than I, and I am not fit to stoop down and untie the thong of His sandals. 8“I baptized you with water; but He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit.”

The word baptize is the Greek word baptizo, which means to fully immerse.
Water baptism mentioned here means fully immersed in water

Holy Spirit baptism means fully immersed in the Holy Spirit. This is when God empowers the believer for serving in God's kingdom, understood as serving with power and authority. This is NOT authority to rule or demand anything from God, but to serve as a servant of Jesus Christ, & a servant of men, ministering to them in whatever capacity the Holy Spirit wishes.
It is not a name-it-&-claim-it because we want to thing. It is following the Spirit's leading with the Spirit's power and the Spirit's authority to SERVE as Jesus did.

A servant of the Holy Spirit CAN'T do what he wants when he wants, because God holds all the authority, not man.

Salvation is being "born of the Spirit", not baptized. Two separate things.

The Greek word for "with" can also mean "in" as well, so both phrases of 'with' or 'in' the Holy Spirit means the same thing.

 

[wattie]

Every scripture concerning receiving the Holy Spirit at salvation never uses the word baptize or baptism with/in the Holy Spirit.

Mark 1
​

4John the Baptist appeared in the wilderness preaching a baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sins. 5And all the country of Judea was going out to him, and all the people of Jerusalem; and they were being baptized by him in the Jordan River, confessing their sins. 6John was clothed with camel’s hair and wore a leather belt around his waist, and his diet was locusts and wild honey. 7And he was preaching, and saying, “After me One is coming who is mightier than I, and I am not fit to stoop down and untie the thong of His sandals. 8“I baptized you with water; but He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit.”

The word baptize is the Greek word baptizo, which means to fully immerse.
Water baptism mentioned here means fully immersed in water

Holy Spirit baptism means fully immersed in the Holy Spirit. This is when God empowers the believer for serving in God's kingdom, understood as serving with power and authority. This is NOT authority to rule or demand anything from God, but to serve as a servant of Jesus Christ, & a servant of men, ministering to them in whatever capacity the Holy Spirit wishes.
It is not a name-it-&-claim-it because we want to thing. It is following the Spirit's leading with the Spirit's power and the Spirit's authority to SERVE as Jesus did.

A servant of the Holy Spirit CAN'T do what he wants when he wants, because God holds all the authority, not man.

Salvation is being "born of the Spirit", not baptized. Two separate things.

The Greek word for "with" can also mean "in" as well, so both phrases of 'with' or 'in' the Holy Spirit means the same thing.

Yeah see this is the thing... what scripture is used Holy Spiri baptism for salvation?

The Corinthians verses.. about being baptised into one body.. that's the local church body I would think

 

[OtherWay210]

KJV Matthew 3:11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:


Well be sure you do not allow people to tell you its babbling like fools .. That might work for luring Turkeys . But dont allow anyone to attribute confusion to God .
Read what was happening in the passages this phrase comes up in .

For instance Acts 2 : there was a language barrier present, but when the Holy Spirit spoke through Peter and the other apostles, the crowed gathered for Pentecost did not need an interpreter.
Everyone understood clearly what was said. That was evidence of the presence of the Holy Spirit in those speakers .

 

[OtherWay210]

Listening to what Peter taught then, The Holy Spirit said in Acts 2 : this is an example of that Joel the Prophet taught would happen in the latter days .
The latter days Specifically: when God will give The Holy Spirit for a testimony against those of the synagogue of Satan.
That happens during the Tribulation, when Gods servants are delivered up for trial .. Plainly written in the Bible .

Today Christians are not taught the Bible in full, so superstition and bad doctrines fill that void, until people are literally dribbling and babbling, running around the place like heathen . .

 

[peacefulbeliever]

Quoting this passage without comment does not help anyone to understand what happened and why it happened. For whatever reason, there are A FEW instances in the Acts of the Apostles recorded that when Gentiles believed on the Lord Jesus Christ, they spoke in tongues. Those converted in the household of Cornelius is another example. It would appear that this manifestation was for the sake of the Jews who needed to learn that God was also saving Gentiles, and the proof that the gift of the Holy Spirit was given to them was their ability to speak in GENUINE FOREIGN LANGUAGES supernaturally. Bible tongues are invariably languages, not babbling.

But as we can see in the rest of the book of Acts, this was not the norm for every sinner who got saved. The thousands of Jews who were saved on the day of Pentecost, and shortly thereafter, did NOT speak in tongues after they received the Holy Spirit. Neither did the Ethiopian eunuch nor the Philippian keeper of the prison, nor many others recorded in Acts.

So anyone who teaches that the evidence of receiving the gift of the Holy Ghost is that the person MUST speak in tongues is not really teaching the truth.

We don't know if "the thousands of Jews who were saved on the day of Pentecost and shortly thereafter, did NOT speak in tongues" . . . we don't know if they did either . . . that is an argument from silence. NOT EVERYTHING done was written about nor recorded.

 

[OtherWay210]

Here is another example :


Act 4:31 And when they had prayed, the place was shaken where they were assembled together; and they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and they spake the word of God with boldness.



They spake the word of God with boldness. Christ being the Living Word spoke the word of God with Boldness because He has The Holy Spirit always speaking from authority and confident of those things He taught from Gods word .


John 12:49 For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak.
50 And I know that his commandment is life everlasting: whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto me, so I speak.


The Apostles themselves at times were not sure of things, yet, when Gods Holy Spirit is literally present, God speaks ,and there is no confusion, and No unanswered questions about The Bible .

 

[notuptome]

We don't know if "the thousands of Jews who were saved on the day of Pentecost and shortly thereafter, did NOT speak in tongues" . . . we don't know if they did either . . . that is an argument from silence. NOT EVERYTHING done was written about nor recorded.

And God does not keep silent on important matters. If tongues were a required sign then they would have been spoken of in clear terms.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[Nehemiah6]

We don't know if "the thousands of Jews who were saved on the day of Pentecost and shortly thereafter, did NOT speak in tongues" . . . we don't know if they did either . . . that is an argument from silence. NOT EVERYTHING done was written about nor recorded.

Except that if those thousands of Jews had indeed spoken in tongues IT WOULD HAVE BEEN PHENOMENAL and would certainly have been recorded. What happened in the Upper Room on the Day of Pentecost was phenomenal and was recorded in full detail. Do you really believe that God would not have given us a view of thousands of converted Jews speaking in tongues? And then there were another 5,000 after 3,000, and again no mention of tongues.

 

[peacefulbeliever]

When I look at it biblically.. the first thing I spot is Jesus saying He will baptise the disciples with the Holy Spirit.

What I notice about this is..

They are already converted.. already eternally saved
They are a group.. rather than individuals alone

So where do you find in the bible it bring for eternal salvation and for individuals alone?

The baptism with the holy Spirit was not available until after Jesus ascension. That is why he told the disciples to wait in Jerusalem and they would be baptized with holy Spirit. Being baptized with holy Spirit is the new birth - it is when God "births" within the believer his divine nature and with this is also the gift of holy Spirit. It is for every believer - For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether Jews or Gentiles, whether bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

Being born again of the Spirit is the ONLY way one is "born again" - the holy Spirit seals us until the day of redemption - marks us as belonging to God.

 

[OtherWay210]

To be clear Tongues was a old English translation of a word that meant in Greek : Language.
Specifically, a language native to the speaker. So in Acts 2, when it says " other Tongues " its saying God is communicating with all languages so all people no matter where they are from, hear and understand the message in their own specific innate language. To all At the same time, with one speakers. No babel .

Tongues does Not mean a language of angels, Nor a prayer language. Dont let that confusing spread .

That is bad doctrines people weave from ignorance of what they're reading .

 

[peacefulbeliever]

Except that if those thousands of Jews had indeed spoken in tongues IT WOULD HAVE BEEN PHENOMENAL and would certainly have been recorded. What happened in the Upper Room on the Day of Pentecost was phenomenal and was recorded in full detail. Do you really believe that God would not have given us a view of thousands of converted Jews speaking in tongues? And then there were another 5,000 after 3,000, and again no mention of tongues.

What happened at the temple on the day of Pentecost, was recorded because it was phenomenal - the first outpouring of what was promised . . . . what was recorded with Cornelius' household, the first Gentile to receive the like gift was recorded because it was phenomenal.

There were also MANY things that Jesus Christ did in the presence of his disciples that were not written because there wouldn't be enough books to contain it all - God could have each and every experience written and recorded but do you not realize HOW BIG AND MASSIVE the Bible would be?

 

[Angela53510]

I received the Holy Spirit when I was saved. He became my best friend and guide. Then, I went to charismatic/Pentecostal churches for the next 15 years. It took me that long to realize exciting experiences and speaking in tongues was NOT the central message of the Bible. I read my Bible faithfully, and what was being preached in those churches, and what was happening, was not in my Bible. I even took a Bible study with PAOC, (affliated with AoG) and it was just as shallow as the churches I was attending.

Eventually we moved to an Evangelical Free church, at my insistance, and not only was the preaching 10X better, so was the worship (music) and the fellowship. When RA took over, they sent me meals all the time. The youth pastor was awesome in that church, and an incredible influence on my teenage boys.

When we moved to Alberta, the only EvFree was miles away. Tried an Alliance church, but it was fluff, and a great rock show. Never met one person in the 2 years I was there. I tried to go to the women’s Bible study, but it was upstairs, with no elevato and I couldn’t do stairs at that time≥ I tried to get involved in the music program and no one even would answer me just to say, “No, sorry we don’t need you.” Five years after we left that church, we got a letter from them saying we should get together in our area and watch the Gray Cup together. I laughed pretty hard at that one.

Then Baptist churches, where I agree with the doctrines, which have excellent, well trained, and studied pastors. With degrees, because they have actually learned something. And they exegete the Bible correctly. The church I am in now, we have many retired pastors, and they are all incredible pastors. We have a Pentecostal pastor who often preaches, he just stays away from tongues. (He is married to an elder, but PAOC will yank his ordination if he becomes a member of our church!)

Anyway, making some “baptism of the Holy Spirit” your focus, totally limits the Bible, and more important, it limits God. So much more to the Christian walk. And that is what I missed my first 15 years in Pentecostal/charismatic churches. Well, we won’t even get into Armininian soteriology, which in some churches, means people get drunk on Saturday, and born again on Sunday, over and over. The pastor of that church knew it was wrong, but wasn’t willing to embrace “eternal security.”’ Or, maybe he wasn’t allowed to, since the articles of faith for PAOC are “lose your salvation.”

As Nehemiah says above, there is NO mention of a baptism OF the Holy Spirit. All we need to do is seek God in his word, and walk with him. And hopefully attend a decent church without weird manifestations which take the eyes off Jesus, and put them on phenomena.

 

[peacefulbeliever]

And God does not keep silent on important matters. If tongues were a required sign then they would have been spoken of in clear terms.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

You are right - God wouldn't keep silent on important matters but to record and have written every single time the new birth was given and manifested? He must have thought that he had supplied sufficient information on the subject with Acts and 1 Corinthians . . .

And to set the record straight - I have never said that tongues were a REQUIRED sign - the holy Spirit is not visible so how did Peter know that Cornelius and his household were saved/received "the like gift"? Because they spoke in tongues . . . . the outward manifestation of the Spirit within.

 

[OtherWay210]

People will often tell you of their personal experiences. If the divisions in Christianity is any indication to you, understand most people are not reading correctly. From that point all thats left is their flesh .

In An environment where people yes you , and peer pressure you into confusion for a lifetime , without the gospel armor, its contagious and eventually people in their ignorance give in to the confusion . You'll adopt the leaven .
Just say No . And get into understanding Gods words as its written with understanding .

 

[star]

If we want to speak about phenomena, we need go no further than God's grace and mercy on our sinful selves by restoring us to Him through the shed blood of Jesus Christ.