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BrotherJustin
Guest
Not correct, read post #129.
Same thing. (How does one pass from death to life without receiving the Holy Spirit?)
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Same thing. (How does one pass from death to life without receiving the Holy Spirit?)
Not the same thing. (Who said one passes from death to life without receiving the Holy Spirit?)
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BrotherJustin
Guest
How is "baptism with water is symbolic of the baptism we receive of the Holy Spirit" incorrect?
I obviously failed to understand by reading Post #129 -- PERHAPS YOU CAN CLARIFY?
Post#129 explains what baptism by immersion in water represents and has scriptural/traditional support.
How does baptism in water represent receiving the Holy Spirit?
Where is the scriptural/traditional support?
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BrotherJustin
Guest
Obviously I was not able to pull your answer out of reading Post 129.
I already answered your first question: "Who said one passes from death to life without receiving the Holy Spirit?" In other words, you cannot have this new life without the Holy Spirit's indwelling.
"For we were all baptized by one Spirit into one body—whether Jews or Greeks, slave or free—and we were all given the one Spirit to drink" (Rom 8:9)
So here you go again with your ring around the rosy.
You implied that someone said one can pass from death to life without receiving the Holy Spirit.
I asked you who here ever said that.
You haven't answered.
I explained what water baptism represents in post#129.
I can't help it if you don't understand that, but I tried
to make it as plain as possible for my new sister who is
about to be baptised. I believe she understood it,
and received it quite readily with thanksgiving.
I also have encouraged her not to let too many opinions
'muddy her waters' and detract from her joyous ceremony.
My motive was to help and encourage my sister,
and I believe I did that.
What is your motive?
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BrotherJustin
Guest
Not correct, read post #129.
My query is in regards to what you think is incorrect concerning resurrection33's comment.
Upon reading your post #129, i find that his statement is in agreement with your lengthier explanation. You, however, disagree--why? What do you claim is incorrect in resurrection33's statement?
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Forgive me for not being clear in my initial challenge--i assumed it would be quite clear that i was challenging your statement that resurrection33's was "not correct".
While i think motive is irrelevant, in this instance, my motive is simple: i simply want to understand what it is concerning resurrection33's post that you thought needed to be challenged.
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CEF
Guest
C
CEF
Guest
You are very welcome!
We are placed into the body of Christ through Spirit baptism when we believe the gospel/receive Christ through faith. Acts 11:16 - Then I remembered the word of the Lord, how He said, 'John indeed baptized with water, but you shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit.' 17 If therefore God gave them the same gift (Holy Spirit) as He gave us when we believed on the Lord Jesus Christ, who was I that I could withstand God?"
Ephesians 1:13 - In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation - having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise.
To be thirsty for Christ, come to Him and drink. A spiritual longing to receive Christ and know God. Just as our physical bodies long for physical water, our spirit longs for living water. The sons of Korah sang, "As the deer pants for streams of water, so my soul pants for you, O God. My soul thirsts for God, for the living God (Psalm 42:1-2). In Isaiah 12:3 we read, "With joy you will draw water from the wells of salvation."
Believers receive the Holy Spirit when they believe on the Lord Jesus Christ/believe the gospel (Acts 10:43-47; 11:17; Ephesians 1:13). Water baptism is not the cause of receiving the Holy Spirit, as we saw in Acts 10:43-47, in which Cornelius and his household received the gift of the Holy Spirit BEFORE water baptism. John the Baptist was filled with the Holy Spirit while still in his mother's womb (Luke 1:15; 1:41). Of course this was before he was water baptized. The apostle Paul was filled with the Holy Spirit before he was water baptized (Acts 9:17,18). So water baptism is neither the cause of receiving or being filled with the Holy Spirit.
God bless you my young sister in Christ!
This makes much more sense now!
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BrotherJustin
Guest
I liked your post 129--it's your post 136 that i challenged.
Thanks for your response.
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Chuckt
Guest
I think your Greek isn't as good or your understanding isn't as good as you think it is.
"Insights" from the New Testament Greek
By BobJones, Northside Bible Church,Jacksonville Florida
The Greek preposition "eis" has at least 16 different meanings, each depending on the Scripture context, listed in Thayer'sGreek Lexicon. "Eis" generally denotes the "motion""into". But, I believe the Greek preposition "eis", as usedin all the New Testament contexts of water baptism, specifically means"because of" for the following reasons:
1. To me, Kenneth Wuest, in his book "Treasures"has the best exegesis of Acts 2:38, and Wuest notes that:
a. The work of Dana & Mantey in the Greek papyri find the use of "eis" as "because of", and demonstrate this usage in the N.T. examples also of Matt 12:41, where the men of Ninevah repented at (eis = because of) the preaching of Jonah, and Rom 4:20,where Abraham did not staggar at (eis = because of) the promise of God.
b. That "because of" is the correct translation of "eis" in the context of baptism and Acts 2:38 is demonstrated by Matt 3:11, where John said "I indeed baptize you with water unto (eis = because of) repentance". John himself,in Matt 3:7&8 told the unbelieving Pharisees and Sadducees that came to see his baptism, that they needed to produce works that demonstrated repentance. He did not tell them that his baptism would produce repentance. Repentance first,then baptism.
c. Add to this the testimony of the Jewish historian Josephus, who lived during the time of Christ and wrote about what hesaw. Josephus wrote in his book "Antiquities of the Jews", in Book XVIII, chapter V, paragraph 2, that John only baptized men AFTER they had repented: John "commanded the Jews to exercise virtue, both as to righteousness towards one another, and piety towards God, and so to come to baptism; for that the washing [with water] would be acceptable to him, if they made use of it, not in order to the putting away, [or the remission] of some sins [only], but for the purification of the body: supposing still that the soul was thoroughly purified beforehand by righteousness".
2. What did the King James Version translators intend"for the remission of sins" to mean, when they translated Acts 2:38? The W.W. Skeat Etymological Dictionary of the English Language, first published in 1879, only lists ONE definition of the English word "for", and that is "in place of". Skeat, being a dictionary of the English language of the middle 1800's,is very close to the language of William Shakespeare and the King James translators. So, even the King James translators apparently intended to translate the Greek word "eis" with the meaning "in the place of", meaning that baptism is a visible picture of the forgiveness of sins that God had already granted. The problem sometimes is that we are trying to understand language written many years ago using our MODERN understanding of the English language! Our modern dictionaries now list as many as 21 different meanings for the English word "for"!
3. I believe that an in-depth study of the New Testament will prove that when a cardinal doctrine (a very IMPORTANT teaching) is being taught, unambiguous and precise VERBs are used in the Greek text, so there can be no misunderstanding! The New Testament Greek has the verbs "Lambano, to receive", "Ginomai, to become", "Tugchano, to obtain",and many other verbs for the New Testament writers to have used if God had intended for them to teach that baptism "results in remission of sins".
I receive many e-mails concerning "eis" and"baptism", and most note the fact that the Thayer's Greek Lexicon does not list the specific meaning "because of" for "eis".Just because we do not find something in a Greek Lexicon cannot be considered"proof" that a meaning does not exist. As noted above, the Thayer's Lexicon missed the meaning "because of" in Matt 3:11, 12:41,and Rom 4:20, as well as Acts 2:38.
The PREPOSITIONs, such as "eis" are often used in CASUAL MENTION of teachings that the reader is ALREADY EXPECTED TO KNOW, and a PREPOSITION alone cannot be used to ESTABLISH a cardinal doctrine.
Bob Jones
Water baptism is a Representative ceremony,
(not a magic formula for 'getting right' with God,
as some ppl erroneously teach.)
Going under the water represents your identification
with Jesus' death on the cross.
It means that when He died,
He died to pay for your sins,
and your 'going under' represents outwardly,
your 'death to self'.
Inwardly, this is done by grace through faith in Jesus.
Jesus died in your place, and you're acknowledging that
in a public ceremony, that it was you who was
deserving of the penalty which Jesus paid.
When you come up out of the water, it represents
the fact that Jesus rose from death and the grave,
and is alive forevermore.
It represents that now that Jesus is your Lord and Savior,
you are identified as a new creation in Christ,
you are passed from death to life, your sins are forgiven,
and you've been given the gift of eternal life.
Again, this ceremonial 'rising from the dead'
(from under water)
represents publicly that the
Risen Jesus Christ IS your Lord and Savior.
There are many bible verses that exemplify this,
but perhaps you may want to take the following one
and tuck it in your heart, and may the Lord
bless you richly during your wonderful ceremony,
and grant you peace and joy in His everlasting love.
~~~Galatians2:20 kjv~~~
'I am crucified with Christ:
nevertheles I live; yet not I,
but Christ lives in me:
and the life I now live in the flesh
I live by the faith of the Son of God,
who loved me, and gave himself for me.'
Praise the Lord, and congratulations!
While I would agree with the outcome that rises from a hope of God needed to perform that ceremonial law. What is the foundation as to its purpose of following the commandment to be baptized, if the foundation is not found in the scriptures?
Did John the Baptist come up with the idea or was it a continuation of an established principle doctrine that God previously set aside ?
That says it all right there.
“When I use a word,’ Humpty Dumpty said in rather a scornful tone, ‘it means just what I choose it to mean — neither more nor less.’
’The question is,’ said Alice, ‘whether you can make words mean so many different things.’
’The question is,’ said Humpty Dumpty, ‘which is to be master — that’s all.”
― Lewis Carroll, Through the Looking Glass
’The question is,’ said Alice, ‘whether you can make words mean so many different things.’
’The question is,’ said Humpty Dumpty, ‘which is to be master — that’s all.”
― Lewis Carroll, Through the Looking Glass
H20 baptism ,done with human hands shows a person is ready to enter the priestly ministry of bringing forth the gospel, according to the hearing of faith. (Christ’s not of our own selves)
All believers on this side of the first century reformation as considered holy priest in respect to a kingdom of priest. If we who are given the privilege to search out how and why Aaron was used to represent that seen the temporal, and not Moses used to represent that not seen the eternal to lead the people of Egypt which is used to typify this worldism, through the god of this world typified by the Pharaoh (the lust of the eye the lust of the flesh and the pride of life) as parable in respect to salvation ;It becomes plain to see why he used two witnesses as it was one.
We walk or understand God as two walking together in agreement according to that not seen .The flesh of Christ profited for nothing.
Galatians 5:16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.
1John 2:16 For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.
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PurerInHeart
Guest
1 Peter 3:21 does not say the ark represented baptism, it says 'WATER symbolizes baptism that now saves you.'
It says that baptism is the representation of the ark that saved. Actually, the word means corresponding, or antitype. So water baptism is the antitype of the type, i.e., the ark.
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PurerInHeart
Guest
It says we are saved through water. The ark represents Christ- those who are IN Christ will be saved, but baptism is how we get into Christ (Romans 6 I believe it's verse three). The fact that Christ saves means nothing to us unless we get into Christ, and baptism gets us into Christ- therefore baptism saves- just like the bible says. It says it's not a physical thing like removing dirt from the body, but a spiritual thing by giving us a clean conscience towards God. In this symbol, who ever cleaned their body with a boat instead of with water? What they are trying to do is say that baptism does not save, or that baptism is not how you get into Christ- which is not what the bible says.
