Be Perfect As Your Heavenly Father Is Perfect.

[Charlie24]

We will be judged according to our works (2 Corinthians 5:10) although we are saved by grace.

At the very least, those who are in Christ will suffer loss as wood, hay, and stubble is burned away at the Bema seat. At the worst, certain people will be cast into the lake of fire because their faith never included surrender to the Lordship of Jesus Christ.

Exactly, many will never have good works achieved through them by the sanctifying work of the Holy Spirit that God will accept.

But they are still saved despite this fact, as Paul told us! Some will never reach victory over besetting sins in their life but by faith they are still saved. This is does not mean, as Paul told us, we have a license for sin!

I heard a great preacher once say, "if you have truly believed in the finished work of Christ and you are trying, you will make it!

It's true! The problem is that many give up trusting in Christ believing others can stop committing the sins they commit, but they can't stop. No truer words have been spoken than that of Paul, "we are justified by faith, not by works."

 

[Charlie24]

It is not dependent on the man to stay in step with the Holy Spirit...this is something that can be obtained through prayer; wherein a man can be pursued by the Lord 24/7 by his request; so that God is in all of his thoughts (Psalms 10:4).

You can ask the Holy Spirit to seal you in His presence so that He will cause you to walk in His statutes and in His judgments (Philippians 2:13, Ezekiel 36:27) 24/7.

You can have all that God offers man in this life, but you are still mortal fallen man, incapable of any perfection.

 

[justbyfaith]

You can have all that God offers man in this life, but you are still mortal fallen man, incapable of any perfection.

By one offering He has perfected for ever those who are sanctified (Hebrews 10:14 (kjv)).

This is speaking of those who are sanctified wholly (1 Thessalonians 5:23-24, 1 John 3:9).

Also, see 1 John 3:7, 1 John 3:3;

1 John 3:6, 1 John 2:17;

Jude 1:24, 2 Peter 1:10, 1 John 2:10;

Romans 8:4, Romans 8:12 (kjv, NLT).

Romans 6:6 (kjv), Colossians 2:11 (kjv, NLT)

 

[justbyfaith]

Exactly, many will never have good works achieved through them by the sanctifying work of the Holy Spirit that God will accept.

But they are still saved despite this fact, as Paul told us! Some will never reach victory over besetting sins in their life but by faith they are still saved. This is does not mean, as Paul told us, we have a license for sin!

I heard a great preacher once say, "if you have truly believed in the finished work of Christ and you are trying, you will make it!

It's true! The problem is that many give up trusting in Christ believing others can stop committing the sins they commit, but they can't stop. No truer words have been spoken than that of Paul, "we are justified by faith, not by works."

Genuine faith in Jesus means surrendering to Him as Lord.

'nuff said!

 

[Charlie24]

By one offering He has perfected for ever those who are sanctified (Hebrews 10:14 (kjv)).

This is speaking of those who are sanctified wholly (1 Thessalonians 5:23-24, 1 John 3:9).

Also, see 1 John 3:7, 1 John 3:3;

1 John 3:6, 1 John 2:17;

Jude 1:24, 2 Peter 1:10, 1 John 2:10;

Romans 8:4, Romans 8:12 (kjv, NLT).

Romans 6:6 (kjv), Colossians 2:11 (kjv, NLT)

Here we are, right back where we started! My Brother, we are not fully sanctified until we are changed and this mortal body of sin puts on the immortal body through the resurrection.

Paul is looking into the future of all who trust in Christ, the resurrection where we are fully sanctified in Christ!

 

[Charlie24]

Genuine faith in Jesus means surrendering to Him as Lord.

'nuff said!

I agree, 'nuff said!

 

[justbyfaith]

Here we are, right back where we started! My Brother, we are not fully sanctified until we are changed and this mortal body of sin puts on the immortal body through the resurrection.

Paul is looking into the future of all who trust in Christ, the resurrection where we are fully sanctified in Christ!

We are sanctified wholly; even preserved blameless in spirit and soul and body unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ (1 Thessalonians 5:23-24 (kjv))

 

[Charlie24]

We are sanctified wholly; even preserved blameless in spirit and soul and body unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ (1 Thessalonians 5:23-24 (kjv))

We are sanctified wholly; even preserved blameless in spirit and soul and body unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ (1 Thessalonians 5:23-24 (kjv))

Read it again! Paul prays that you be preserved blameless unto the coming of the Lord!

What preserves you blameless, JBF? Not the works you have done but your FAITH!

Why until the coming of the Lord? This is the resurrection that makes us perfect.

Think my friend!

 

[randyk]

You seem to think that the term "sinless" is inextricably connected to the term "perfect".

It is not.

A person can be perfected and yet not be sinless.

When the element of indwelling sin is rendered dead within the individual (Romans 6:6, Galatians 5:24, Romans 7:8), that individual is perfected; but he is not sinless.

He still has indwelling sin; and yet does not have to walk in a sinful manner because the element of sin has been rendered dead within him.

You're contradicting yourself and confusing others. You are sticking by your claim that "perfection means perfection." In this case, it does not. To "be perfect" means to live the right way--not be "perfectly live the right way."

If you say sin is "dead within us" the way you've been saying it, then you would be saying that we are indeed "sinless." And yet, here you are, claiming that we are "not sinless." So which is it? Is sin truly "dead" within us, or are we "still sinful?"

You are ending up in this perplexity because you continue to insist "be perfect" means to "be sinless." It does not. It only means to "clean up your act and live in the path of the just," to live in obedience. It does not mean to live in obedience *perfectly!*

When the element of sin is rendered dead within the believer (Romans 6:6, Galatians 5:24, Romans 7:8), it no longer has any say over his behaviour (Romans 6:14). We are no longer obligated to obey the flesh (Romans 8:12 (kjv, NLT)).

Yes, we are to *consider* sin dead. In other words, we are to view sin as defeated *by Christ.* And so, since he's given us his Spirit, we are able to overcome every sin.

But that doesn't mean we're sinless. It means that as we live with a sin nature, we are able to deal with sin throughout our lives, overcoming the inclination towards sin continually. Sin cannot keep us prohibited, by law, from entering into Christ's righteousness.

We all have indwelling sin; while that does not mean that we are obligated to obey the flesh or to sin at any moment in the future.

Indwelling sin is a kind of uncleanness. But it doesn't have to prohibit us from walking in the righteousness of Christ. Christ's pardon enables us to partake of his righteousness despite our inclination towards sin, despite our uncleanness. He enables to walk in his path, and experience his cleansing.

It all goes back to your false association of "be perfect" with "be sinless." It is not saying that. It is saying that we should live in righteousness, period. That righteousness is the righteousness of grace. It is not the righteousness of legal perfection--otherwise, we would be condemned, separated from God, and banned forever from eternal life. We would not be allowed to live in righteousness at all!

 

[justbyfaith]

Read it again! Paul prays that you be preserved blameless unto the coming of the Lord!

What preserves you blameless, JBF? Not the works you have done but your FAITH!

Why until the coming of the Lord? This is the resurrection that makes us perfect.

Think my friend!

Of course it is my faith that preserves me blameless...

So, what does blameless even mean?

If it has nothing to do with our behaviour?

 

[justbyfaith]

If you say sin is "dead within us" the way you've been saying it, then you would be saying that we are indeed "sinless." And yet, here you are, claiming that we are "not sinless." So which is it? Is sin truly "dead" within us, or are we "still sinful?"

We are not without sin....because the element of sin continues to dwell within us.

But we do not have to commit sin...because it is rendered dead within us.

 

[justbyfaith]

You are ending up in this perplexity because you continue to insist "be perfect" means to "be sinless."

No, I am contending that one can be perfect without being sinless.

 

[justbyfaith]

You are ending up in this perplexity because you continue to insist "be perfect" means to "be sinless." It does not. It only means to "clean up your act and live in the path of the just," to live in obedience. It does not mean to live in obedience *perfectly!*

If we become doers of righteousness, we will be righteous even as Christ is righteous (1 John 3:7) in that same, practical sense.

Yes, we are to *consider* sin dead. In other words, we are to view sin as defeated *by Christ.* And so, since he's given us his Spirit, we are able to overcome every sin.

But that doesn't mean we're sinless. It means that as we live with a sin nature, we are able to deal with sin throughout our lives, overcoming the inclination towards sin continually. Sin cannot keep us prohibited, by law, from entering into Christ's righteousness.

I agree.

Indwelling sin is a kind of uncleanness.

So, what do you make of this verse?

1Jo 1:7, But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

It all goes back to your false association of "be perfect" with "be sinless." It is not saying that.

I don't know where you get from my statements that you think that I am saying that.

I have repeatedly said that one can be perfect without being sinless.

It is not the righteousness of legal perfection--otherwise, we would be condemned, separated from God, and banned forever from eternal life. We would not be allowed to live in righteousness at all!

Imputed righteousness is legal perfection as God applies it to our account.

On top of that, God is able to impart to us His righteousness in the practical sense (1 John 3:7, Romans 5:19, Matthew 5:6; 1 John 3:17-18).

 

[randyk]

So, what do you make of this verse?

1Jo 1:7, But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

I take that as meaning we are indwelt by sin, and constantly have a tendency towards sin, but also can partake of Christ's righteousness regularly. As a result, as we choose to partake of Christ's righteousness, we are *being cleansed.* It is an active process continually taking place as righteousness overcomes the sin tendency within. The sin tendency is there but we overcome it.

I don't know where you get from my statements that you think that I am saying that.
I have repeatedly said that one can be perfect without being sinless.

Anybody here reading your statements would get the same notion, that when Jesus told us to "be perfect," it means for you that we should be sinless. You claim that "sin is dead" in the case of our choosing to consider it as such.

In reality, for me it is just saying that Jesus rendered sin ineffective in preventing us from accessing Christ's righteousness. In other words, sin is "legally dead," or legally restrained from imposing its will on us. Sin is a defeated enemy, even though it remains there as an enemy. It's an enemy that we always have to fight.

It is *not* dead in that sense. It did not become "non-existent," which is how you seem to be defining it for the Christian.

Imputed righteousness is legal perfection as God applies it to our account.

I agree. It is *Christ's righteousness* that gets us to heaven. And it is an unspoiled, or blameless righteousness that does this.

However, when we participate in it, it may cleanse us but it does not take away the impurity of our sin nature. What it cleanses is our heart's attitude and choice to do right. There remains a tendency to want to do wrong. And we have to continually overcome that.

It is our choice to do right that gains for us access to God's grace. This is what cleanses us--not sinless perfection, nor the thought that in accepting Christ we can be perfect, but rather, a righteousness that is accessible to those with a sin nature. And that's what we have.

 

[randyk]

If we become doers of righteousness, we will be righteous even as Christ is righteous (1 John 3:7) in that same, practical sense.

Again, Jesus' command to "be perfect" is the equivalent of "be obedient" or "be righteous. " It is to folllow the path of the just as those corrupted and influenced by sin. People infected by sin can indeed be obedient. Every covenant God made with fallen Man was predicated on the idea that fallen Man can be righteous.

And this is the kind of "perfection" Jesus indicated. He did not mean "be righteous perfectly," but rather, be obedient and live in the path of the just.

People in the world who wish to see themselves as "godly" or attentive to God's commands are not being "perfect" if they do good things, but do not hand their entire sin nature over to God. We have to have our whole nature renewed to please God as righteous men and women.

This is not being perfect in a sinless way. Rather, it is being perfect in the sense of being righteous in the right way, by having our nature transformed. This enables us to hear and to obey God all the time, but it does not exterminate our sin nature.

 

[justbyfaith]

In 1 John 3:9, we find the following words.

1Jo 3:9, Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

This may in fact be hyperbole...exaggeration to make a point.

What point?

That the person who has been born again of the Holy Spirit has made a 180-degree turn away from sin, death, hell, and satan, towards righteousness, life, heaven, and God.

He is therefore walking in a new direction.

As it is written,

Pro 4:18, But the path of the just is as the shining light, that shineth more and more unto the perfect day.

The reality of "cannot sin" in 1 John 3:9, may in fact be a hyperbolic way of saying that we do not have to sin as Christians who are filled with the Holy Ghost. It is said more literally in Romans 8:12 (kjv, NLT).

Rom 8:12, Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.

Rom 8:12, Therefore, dear brothers and sisters, you have no obligation to do what your sinful nature urges you to do.

 

[justbyfaith]

I take that as meaning we are indwelt by sin, and constantly have a tendency towards sin, but also can partake of Christ's righteousness regularly. As a result, as we choose to partake of Christ's righteousness, we are *being cleansed.* It is an active process continually taking place as righteousness overcomes the sin tendency within. The sin tendency is there but we overcome it.



Anybody here reading your statements would get the same notion, that when Jesus told us to "be perfect," it means for you that we should be sinless. You claim that "sin is dead" in the case of our choosing to consider it as such.

In reality, for me it is just saying that Jesus rendered sin ineffective in preventing us from accessing Christ's righteousness. In other words, sin is "legally dead," or legally restrained from imposing its will on us. Sin is a defeated enemy, even though it remains there as an enemy. It's an enemy that we always have to fight.

It is *not* dead in that sense. It did not become "non-existent," which is how you seem to be defining it for the Christian.



I agree. It is *Christ's righteousness* that gets us to heaven. And it is an unspoiled, or blameless righteousness that does this.

However, when we participate in it, it may cleanse us but it does not take away the impurity of our sin nature. What it cleanses is our heart's attitude and choice to do right. There remains a tendency to want to do wrong. And we have to continually overcome that.

It is our choice to do right that gains for us access to God's grace. This is what cleanses us--not sinless perfection, nor the thought that in accepting Christ we can be perfect, but rather, a righteousness that is accessible to those with a sin nature. And that's what we have.

Again, Jesus' command to "be perfect" is the equivalent of "be obedient" or "be righteous. " It is to folllow the path of the just as those corrupted and influenced by sin. People infected by sin can indeed be obedient. Every covenant God made with fallen Man was predicated on the idea that fallen Man can be righteous.

And this is the kind of "perfection" Jesus indicated. He did not mean "be righteous perfectly," but rather, be obedient and live in the path of the just.

People in the world who wish to see themselves as "godly" or attentive to God's commands are not being "perfect" if they do good things, but do not hand their entire sin nature over to God. We have to have our whole nature renewed to please God as righteous men and women.

This is not being perfect in a sinless way. Rather, it is being perfect in the sense of being righteous in the right way, by having our nature transformed. This enables us to hear and to obey God all the time, but it does not exterminate our sin nature.

I believe that one can be perfectly obedient from a certain point in his life; that is, from the point of being sanctified wholly (1 Thessalonians 5:23-24).

When the element of sin is rendered dead (Romans 6:6, Galatians 5:24, Romans 7:8), there is no more obligation to obey the flesh (Romans 8:12 (kjv, NLT)) and the element of sin no longer has any say over the behaviour of the one who is sanctified thusly (Romans 6:14).

The element of sin is not eradicated from the person's flesh; so he still has indwelling sin.

Because it is rendered dead, he does not have to sin.

 

[walknlight]

"For we all stumble and sin in many ways. If anyone does not stumble in what he says [never saying the wrong thing], he is a perfect man [fully developed in character, without serious flaws], able to bridle his whole body and rein in his entire nature [taming his human faults and weaknesses]. "

 

[justbyfaith]

"For we all stumble and sin in many ways. If anyone does not stumble in what he says [never saying the wrong thing], he is a perfect man [fully developed in character, without serious flaws], able to bridle his whole body and rein in his entire nature [taming his human faults and weaknesses]. "

1Jo 2:10, He that loveth his brother abideth in the light, and there is none occasion of stumbling in him.

In the kjv:

Jas 3:2, For in many things we offend all. If any man offend not in word, the same is a perfect man, and able also to bridle the whole body.

Phl 1:10, That ye may approve things that are excellent; that ye may be sincere and without offence till the day of Christ;

 

[randyk]

In 1 John 3:9, we find the following words.

1Jo 3:9, Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

This may in fact be hyperbole...exaggeration to make a point.

What point?

That the person who has been born again of the Holy Spirit has made a 180-degree turn away from sin, death, hell, and satan, towards righteousness, life, heaven, and God.

He is therefore walking in a new direction.

I don't see it as hyperbole, but I agree--it is walking in a new direction. It's like a truism that says, "if you walk in the right path, you can't be walking in the wrong path." In our passage it is saying, in effect, "You cannot live a life of sin if you are choosing to walk in righteousness. If you've become reborn into God's nature of righteousness, and have chosen to live that way, then you can't be practicing sin.

It isn't an exaggeration to say this. It is, rather, a fact. It is talking about practicing sin on a daily basis. You don't do that when you've received a new nature and have decided to live by it.

Can we choose to *not* live by our new nature? Of course. Why else would John be saying this? It is not that we cannot sin, but that the person, after choosing to live by his new nature, cannot, logically, be going the wrong way! We would be foolishly choosing to go against the very nature we've chosen to adopt!