Because of the Angels

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L

LT

Guest
#41
#41
Yup. I give up. I just don't get this passage.
 
posthuman

posthuman

Senior Member
#42
Jul 31, 2013
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#42
is it unrelated that seraphim (also creatures subject to authority) cover their faces with a pair of their wings? (Isaiah 6:1-2)



 
L

LT

Guest
#43
#43
posthuman said:
is it unrelated that seraphim (also creatures subject to authority) cover their faces with a pair of their wings? (Isaiah 6:1-2)



Click to expand...
It's probably related.
But I still just don't get it.
 
Patnubay

Patnubay

Senior Member
#44
May 27, 2014
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#44
crossnote said:
I don't want a debate on whether a woman is to have a head covering or not, whether it is cultural or a Command of God...I just want to know what is meant in context 'because of the angels.
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1 Corinthians 11:10 (NKJV)
10 For this reason the woman ought to have a symbol of authority on her head, because of the angels.


1 Corinthians 11:3 (NKJV)
3 But I want you to know that the head of every man is Christ, the head of woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Psalm 8:5 (NKJV)
5 For You have made him a little lower than the angels,[a]

Head of the woman is man, head of a man is Christ and the head of Christ is God. In an equation, we could say, the head of the woman is God therefore, the woman (ought) (must) (should) have a symbol of authority on her head because God is her head and the angels ought to know.

or simply saying, a sign on a woman's head is needed because the angels need to know/recognize who is the head of the woman.



 
posthuman

posthuman

Senior Member
#45
Jul 31, 2013
38,620
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#45
what if this should be "messengers" instead of "angels" ?
 
crossnote

crossnote

Senior Member
#46
Nov 24, 2012
30,783
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#46
LT said:
Yea, I went too far into the Greek without explanation.
The word exousia is referring to the woman as the subject, by default.
It is very difficult to make the passage say that the "power" or "authority" is anything but her own.

I have a feeling that the translation errors/difficulty rendering this passage,
is due to a "turn of phrase" that is lost in translation,
because the literal rendering in actually nonsensical.

I will check how the Aramaic text renders this passage. (Not that it has any authority over the Greek, but that the Greek here is not lining up with the English, and I want to know why).
Click to expand...
Here is the Expanded Bible's rendition (sort of an amplified version).

10 So that is why a woman should have a ·symbol of authority on [or authority over] her head, because of the angels [C the significance of the angels is unclear; perhaps their presence at worship calls for reverence and propriety].
Click to expand...
 
L

LT

Guest
#47
#47
Patnubay said:
1 Corinthians 11:10 (NKJV)
10 For this reason the woman ought to have a symbol of authority on her head, because of the angels.


1 Corinthians 11:3 (NKJV)
3 But I want you to know that the head of every man is Christ, the head of woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Psalm 8:5 (NKJV)
5 For You have made him a little lower than the angels,[a]

Head of the woman is man, head of a man is Christ and the head of Christ is God. In an equation, we could say, the head of the woman is God therefore, the woman (ought) (must) (should) have a symbol of authority on her head because God is her head and the angels ought to know.

or simply saying, a sign on a woman's head is needed because the angels need to know/recognize who is the head of the woman.
Click to expand...
That is what I was thinking before.
But k owing the literal rendering of Greek makes that view much less convincing now.
 
crossnote

crossnote

Senior Member
#48
Nov 24, 2012
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#48
posthuman said:
is it unrelated that seraphim (also creatures subject to authority) cover their faces with a pair of their wings? (Isaiah 6:1-2)



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are they female? Lol. My guess is that is referring to the brightness of God's glory and Holiness.
 
L

LT

Guest
#50
#50
posthuman said:
what if this should be "messengers" instead of "angels" ?
Click to expand...
I thought about that too, because the Greek word means both,
but the word by itself, without stating "from whom" or "to whom" make "angels" the only realistic rendering.
 
L

LT

Guest
#51
#51
crossnote said:
Like as in false teachers?
Click to expand...
But it would have stated that, if such was the case.
At least a partial clause.
Even if he didn't want to say who the messengers were reporting to, there would be something inserted to differentiate these messengers from Messangers.
 
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crossnote

crossnote

Senior Member
#52
Nov 24, 2012
30,783
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#52
LT said:
But it would have stated that, if such was the case.
At least a partial clause.
Even if he didn't want to say who the messengers were reporting to, there would be something inserted to differentiate these messengers from Messangers.
Click to expand...
I agree, lacks it in the context. I was just trying to get clarification from PH
 
posthuman

posthuman

Senior Member
#53
Jul 31, 2013
38,620
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#53
crossnote said:
are they female? Lol. My guess is that is referring to the brightness of God's glory and Holiness.
Click to expand...
yeah, afaik angels are always represented as masculine, everywhere in the Bible, as am sure you know too.

but i've always wondered over Isaiah's description there too, covering their faces & feet. it seems like the idea here in 1 Cor. is a cultural understanding that's pretty much lost on us, but has something to do with a symbolism of being spoken for or under the authority of someone -- the ESV has this footnote in the context:

b. 1 Corinthians 11:5In verses 5–13, the Greek word gunē is translated wife in verses that deal with wearing a veil, a sign of being married in first-century culture

​
i think the same sort of idea was taken further by Mohammed with the whole burka thing.

Isaiah's description makes a kind of symbolic sense if covering ~ being subject and under another's authority & power, what these angles see and say, where they go being subject to their master, the Lord, represented by their faces and feet covered by wings. if that's the concept, then women meant to be the wife of an husband, who should be their head, having long hair that covers their face makes a sort of conceptual symbolic sense too.
but if it's all about preventing fallen angels from seeing their lovely faces, which sounds more like superstition to me than symbolic logic, then this doesn't shed any light on Isaiah's description of the seraphim. *shrug*

i don't understand this any more than the rest of you -- just thinking out loud ((that is, thinking in text)).
two things i'm taking for granted though: it's a symbolism & it's related to cultural ideas that the people in Corinth would have understood without being explicitly told
 
posthuman

posthuman

Senior Member
#54
Jul 31, 2013
38,620
13,841
113
#54
crossnote said:
Like as in false teachers?
Click to expand...
sort of -- more like "false messages"

like as in the messages that a woman's hair or headwear would send to others in public. we'd call them "signals" . . ?

feels like a stretch :p
 
crossnote

crossnote

Senior Member
#55
Nov 24, 2012
30,783
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#55
posthuman said:
yeah, afaik angels are always represented as masculine, everywhere in the Bible, as am sure you know too.

but i've always wondered over Isaiah's description there too, covering their faces & feet. it seems like the idea he0re in 1 Cor. is a cultural understanding that's pretty much lost on us, but has something to do with a symbolism of being spoken for or under the authority of someone -- the ESV has this footnote in the context:

b. 1 Corinthians 11:5In verses 5–13, the Greek word gunē is translated wife in verses that deal with wearing a veil, a sign of being married in first-century culture

​
i think the same sort of idea was taken further by Mohammed with the whole burka thing.

Isaiah's description makes a kind of symbolic sense if covering ~ being subject and under another's authority & power, what these angles see and say, where they go being subject to their master, the Lord, represented by their faces and feet covered by wings. if that's the concept, then women meant to be the wife of an husband, who should be their head, having long hair that covers their face makes a sort of conceptual symbolic sense too.
but if it's all about preventing fallen angels from seeing their lovely faces, which sounds more like superstition to me than symbolic logic, then this doesn't shed any light on Isaiah's description of the seraphim. *shrug*

i don't understand this any more than the rest of you -- just thinking out loud ((that is, thinking in text)).
two things i'm taking for granted though: it's a symbolism & it's related to cultural ideas that the people in Corinth would have understood without being explicitly told
Click to expand...
I agree with the cultural understanding part that we are probably missing some info. I have reservations about the symbolism angle because Paul runs it back to Adam and Eve.
Regarding the Seraphims, I suppose it could be taken "the angels cover themselves and so should we"...but men aren't mentioned, hmmm.
 
crossnote

crossnote

Senior Member
#56
Nov 24, 2012
30,783
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#56
posthuman said:
sort of -- more like "false messages"

like as in the messages that a woman's hair or headwear would send to others in public. we'd call them "signals" . . ?

feels like a stretch :p
Click to expand...
that's what this little frenchy says, lol...

And-Stretch-l.jpg
 
posthuman

posthuman

Senior Member
#57
Jul 31, 2013
38,620
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#57
crossnote said:
I agree with the cultural understanding part that we are probably missing some info. I have reservations about the symbolism angle because Paul runs it back to Adam and Eve.
Regarding the Seraphims, I suppose it could be taken "the angels cover themselves and so should we"...but men aren't mentioned, hmmm.
Click to expand...

well, symbolism is ((usually)) grounded in some kind of reality and operates by some kind of logic. if this is related in some way to the seraphim it's only directly explaining the wings over the faces and maybe describing a symbolic language for the reason their feet are also covered -- am unaware of any cultural regulations regarding a married woman's feet.
that verse in Isaiah is just as isolated and just as much of a puzzle to me as this one.
i don't have so much of an objection to them not being female though, understanding it as a sign of irrevocable subordination that's not necessarily gender-specific. it might be that to Isaiah's first audience, that description was something of a shock because of the gender role, or at least a profound & out-of-the-ordinary statement in the same sense.

i say "understanding it" lol but i'm really baffled. and very interested :)
 
T

tanach

Guest
#59
#59
My take on it is that Paul had the fallen Angels in mind when he wrote about it. They corrupted creation. That is why God
destroyed everything with the flood apart from Noah and those in the Ark.
 
O

oldthennew

Guest
#60
#60
we believe this is all about 'ORDER',
vs.9. Nor was man created for the woman but woman for the man.
10.
For this reason the woman ought to have a symbol of authority on her head, because of the angels.

the angels cannot be our 'ministering spirits',
1. if we are not in submission to Christ,
2. if the man is out of order, this puts the family in chaos and 'out of order'.

if the woman is not in the proper order, the angels cannot minister either, because the angels are
submissive to the 'order of God'.

here is an example of when the wife usurps the husband,
AMOS 4:1.
Here this word you cows of Bashan, who are on the mountains of Samaria, who oppress the poor,
who crush the needy, who say to your husbands, bring wine, let us drink!

our God and Creator is all about Authority, Order, and Obedience to His Order..
so, if we act like beasts, 'out of order', then the ministering angels cannot enter into our lives
and exert the Protection granted to them by God, else THEY would be in disobedience
and out of order.
 
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