BEFORE THE CROSS/AFTER THE CROSS

[JGIG]

Doesn't matter how you keep the commandments. GOD said do this and don't do that. If out of an act of your own will you refrain from stealing something you desire, because you know his book says to not do that, then you have done GOD's will.

We of our will can't clean up the problem in our heart that caused the desire to steal, but by not outwardly committing a sinful act we keep from defiling ourselves in a worse way.

I'd be interested in you backing up that bit of theology with some Scripture, especially the part about how we can't clean up the problem in our heart but we can keep from 'defiling ourselves in a worse way' . Sin is sin is sin, and the wages of sin is death, and Christ made clear that even thinking sinfully is sin!

While I agree that abstaining from the act of sinning reduces harm done to others, refraining from sinning while the mind and heart are hating/lusting/coveting, etc. defiles one's self just as much as if the sin were walked out in the flesh, according to Jesus.

Self-control is a fruit of the spirit, and and is entirely an act of the will.

Stunning.

If self-control is entirely and act of the will, how can it be a fruit of the Spirit? How many pieces of fruit will themselves into existence?

The mechanics you lay out disqualify any other thing at work BUT the will (self-righteous behavior), and negate the need for Christ at all!

You also have stated elsewhere that the believer lives by faith, yet you have reduced life entirely down to your willpower.

The life I now live in the body, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me. 21 I do not set aside the grace of God, for if righteousness could be gained through the law, Christ died for nothing!” (from Gal. 2)​

So it is good and godly to use our will to serve GOD and do his will.

Where you choose to 'use your will', I choose to live by the Spirit in pursuit of the will of God \o/. The fruit of each is evident.

-JGIG

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

Galatians 3:3 (NASB)
[SUP]3 [/SUP] Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh?
Romans 10:2-3 (NASB)
[SUP]2 [/SUP] For I testify about them that they have a zeal for God,but not in accordance with knowledge.

[SUP]3 [/SUP] For not knowing about God's righteousness and seeking to establish their own, they did not subject themselves to the righteousness of God.

Notice that the verses you quoted are talking about seeking to establish one's own righteousness apart from the knowledge of Christ. Christ's work is the foundation we are to build upon through faith.

For we are his creation, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, so that we may walk in them. Ephesians 2:10​

So Romans 10:3 is in no way talking about a knowledge (gnosis) that defines righteousness as refraining from all self-effort and work, as the false grace believers teach.

 

[Grace777x70]

The fine linen is the righteousness of Jesus. The "righteous act" was Jesus giving us His righteousness in Rev 19:8. There is no Greek word for "deeds" in any manuscript.

The greek word dikaiōma = righteousness and is used 10 x times in the NT and not once is the word "deeds" with it in the manuscripts.
Revelation 19:8 (KJV)

[SUP]8 [/SUP] And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white :for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.

( there is no greek word for "deeds" in Rev 19:8....it's added in by some translations )

dikaiōma = righteousness / justification

(a) "an ordinance" i.e., what God has declared to be right,

(b) "a sentence of acquittal," by which God acquits men of their guilt, on the conditions (1) of His grace in Christ, through His expiatory sacrifice, (2) the acceptance of Christ by faith, Rom. 5:16

(c) "a righteous act," Rom. 5:18, "(through one) act of righteousness," Rev. 19:8

Vine's Expository Dictionary of Old Testament and New Testament Words.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

If self-control is entirely and act of the will, how can it be a fruit of the Spirit? How many pieces of fruit will themselves into existence?

The mechanics you lay out disqualify any other thing at work BUT the will (self-righteous behavior), and negate the need for Christ at all!

You also have stated elsewhere that the believer lives by faith, yet you have reduced life entirely down to your willpower.

The life I now live in the body, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me. 21 I do not set aside the grace of God, for if righteousness could be gained through the law, Christ died for nothing!” (from Gal. 2)​

Where you choose to 'use your will', I choose to live by the Spirit in pursuit of the will of God \o/. The fruit of each is evident.

You're mischaracterizing what I'm saying due to your false-grace filter ("lens"), that tries to force the false dichotomy of self-effort/grace on the discussion. I admitted that we cannot clean up the inside of the cup by an act of our will.

Your whole issue is that you conflate self with works of law. That's just a false, disabling belief. GOD gives us the ability to do his will, and we grow in the knowledge of Christ through the application of our own will and efforts in faith. In this way we do not become useless servants who simply imagine that they are doing of will of GOD.

and [for] this same [reason], and [by] applying all diligence, supply with your faith excellence, and with excellence, knowledge, and with knowledge, self-control, and with self-control, patient endurance, and with patient endurance, godliness, and with godliness, brotherly love, and with brotherly love, love. ​For [if] these [things] are yours and are increasing, this does not make [you] useless or unproductive in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 2 Peter 1:5-8​

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

[there is no greek word for "deeds" in Rev 19:8....it's added in by some translations )

You've been told this before, but you continue to misrepresent the truth. The Greek word in both Romans 8:4 and Revelation 19:8 is the word for righteous with the -ma suffix, which means effect. So the word means righteous effect, which translates to righteous deed.

 

[JGIG]

I'd be interested in you backing up that bit of theology with some Scripture, especially the part about how we can't clean up the problem in our heart but we can keep from 'defiling ourselves in a worse way' . Sin is sin is sin, and the wages of sin is death, and Christ made clear that even thinking sinfully is sin!

While I agree that abstaining from the act of sinning reduces harm done to others, refraining from sinning while the mind and heart are hating/lusting/coveting, etc. defiles one's self just as much as if the sin were walked out in the flesh, according to Jesus.



Stunning.

If self-control is entirely and act of the will, how can it be a fruit of the Spirit? How many pieces of fruit will themselves into existence?

The mechanics you lay out disqualify any other thing at work BUT the will (self-righteous behavior), and negate the need for Christ at all!

You also have stated elsewhere that the believer lives by faith, yet you have reduced life entirely down to your willpower.

The life I now live in the body, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me. 21 I do not set aside the grace of God, for if righteousness could be gained through the law, Christ died for nothing!” (from Gal. 2)​

Where you choose to 'use your will', I choose to live by the Spirit in pursuit of the will of God \o/. The fruit of each is evident.

-JGIG

You're mischaracterizing what I'm saying due to your false-grace filter ("lens"), that tries to force the false dichotomy of self-effort/grace on the discussion.

I'm mischaracterizing nothing, but merely exposing the inconsistencies in your belief system. The lens through which I look is the Finished Work of Christ - His Crucifixion, Resurrection, Ascension, and Perfect, Permanent High Priesthood. That's a pretty darn accurate lens!

I admitted that we cannot clean up the inside of the cup by an act of our will.

And then stated that "self-control is entirely and act of the will", in context speaking of refraining from sinning. If that's the case, then why do we need Jesus at all if all we need is to exercise our will to do the right thing all of the time (see Galatians)?

Your whole issue is that you conflate self with works of law. That's just a false, disabling belief. GOD gives us the ability to do his will, and we grow in the knowledge of Christ through the application of our own will and efforts in faith. In this way we do not become useless servants who simply imagine that they are doing of will of GOD.

and [for] this same [reason], and [by] applying all diligence, supply with your faith excellence, and with excellence, knowledge, and with knowledge, self-control, and with self-control, patient endurance, and with patient endurance, godliness, and with godliness, brotherly love, and with brotherly love, love. ​For [if] these [things] are yours and are increasing, this does not make [you] useless or unproductive in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 2 Peter 1:5-8​

Not at all - the cool thing about being in Christ is that His Spirit and we work in cooperation toward the purposes of God \o/! Far from being a disabling belief, it is an empowering belief - one that states that He will never leave or forsake us, from our spiritual infancy on into maturity. Security in God's acceptance of us in Christ empowers us to be who He has created us to be. Peter was writing great encouragement to believers in that passage!

-JGIG

 

[Grace777x70]

Well....there is no "-ma suffix" in order for you to construct "your" deeds... in Rev. 19:8..the word for righteousness there = [FONT="Gentium" !important]dikaiōmata ([/FONT][FONT="Gentium" !important] which is different word ending then in Rom. 8:4[/FONT][FONT="Gentium" !important] )[/FONT]

The only fine linen we have is the righteousness of Jesus our Lord and that is given to us.....not our own righteous deeds. ( that is a different gospel then the gospel of the grace of Christ)

Rev.19:8

[SUP]8 [/SUP] And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white :for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

Well....there is no -ma suffix in Rev. 19:8..the word for righteousness there = [FONT="Gentium" !important]dikaiōmata[/FONT]

The only fine linen we have is the righteousness of Jesus our Lord and that is given to us.....not our own righteous deeds. ( that is a different gospel then the gospel of the grace of Christ)

Rev.19:8

[SUP]8 [/SUP] And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white :for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.

That's because its inflection is plural, i.e., -mata

 

[Grace777x70]

In all 10x times the word is used in the NT ...all of them have a -ma in them.....

No where is it translated as "deeds" in any place in the NT.

I know you want your "deeds" but it isn't there in the Greek words.

Here is an example of your -ma by itself.. ( Rom. 8:4 is one too )

Romans 5:16 (KJV)
[SUP]16 [/SUP] And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification. ( righteousness - given to us as a free gift in Christ..like in Rev 19:8 )


1. [FONT="Gentium" !important]dikaiōma[/FONT] nom/acc sing neu
2. [FONT="Gentium" !important]dikaiōmatos[/FONT] gen sing neu
3. [FONT="Gentium" !important]dikaiōmata[/FONT] nom/acc pl neu
4. [FONT="Gentium" !important]dikaiōmasin[/FONT] dat pl neu

Complete Biblical Library Greek-English Dictionary, The - The Complete Biblical Library Greek-English Dictionary – Delta-Epsilon.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

In all 10x times the word is used in the NT ...all of them have a -ma in them.....

No where is it translated as "deeds" in any place in the NT.

I know you want your "deeds" but it isn't there in the Greek words.

Here is an example of your -ma by itself.. ( Rom. 8:4 is one too )

Romans 5:16 (KJV)
[SUP]16 [/SUP] And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification. ( righteousness - given to us as a free gift in Christ..like in Rev 19:8 )

I'm glad you brought this up because I was just studying this verse. Righteous effect is actually the correct translation there IMO because it maintains consistency. Through Adam's one offense (i.e., deed) death reigned over man, but through the free gift of one man life reigns into a righteous effect (i.e., righteous deeds of the saints).

You're just trying to promote the falsehood that righteous and righteous + ma suffix are the same word. The -ma suffix is there for a reason. I'd like to do more study on this because it's opening up some truth I haven't seen before.

 

[Grace777x70]

okie dokie..you are free to make up what you want...

but for your studying..I think you will find out that the -ma is there because it is the Greek spelling of the word itself for righteousness in the form of a noun...[FONT="Gentium" !important]dikaiō[/FONT][FONT="Gentium" !important]ma[/FONT] ...and thus every other form of this word has -ma in it with just the other suffixes added onto it...

In other words..there is no greek word in the noun form for [FONT="Gentium" !important]dikaiō ( without the -ma ) by itself. ( there is a close verb though....[/FONT]

Enjoy your studying...

Complete Biblical Library Greek-English Dictionary, The - The Complete Biblical Library Greek-English Dictionary – Delta-Epsilon.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

No where is it translated as "deeds" in any place in the NT.

I know you want your "deeds" but it isn't there in the Greek words.

Obviously a lot of bible translators disagree with you. All of these bibles have some form of righteous deeds.

New International Version
Fine linen, bright and clean, was given her to wear." (Fine linen stands for the righteous acts of God's holy people.)

New Living Translation
English Standard Version
Berean Study Bible
Berean Literal Bible
New American Standard Bible
Holman Christian Standard Bible
International Standard Version
NET Bible
GOD'S WORD® Translation
New American Standard 1977
King James 2000 Bible
American King James Version
American Standard Version
English Revised Version
Webster's Bible Translation
Weymouth New Testament
World English Bible
Young's Literal Translation

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

okie dokie..you are free to make up what you want...

but for your studying..I think you will find out that the -ma is there because it is the Greek spelling of the word itself for righteousness in the form of a noun...[FONT="Gentium" !important]dikaiō[/FONT][FONT="Gentium" !important]ma[/FONT] ...and thus every other form of this word has -ma in it with just the other suffixes added onto it...

In other words..there is no greek word in the noun form for [FONT="Gentium" !important]dikaiō ( without the -ma ) by itself. ( there is a close verb though....[/FONT]

You don't know what you're talking about. In the very next verse (Romans 5:17) righteousness appears as a noun without -ma.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

okie dokie..you are free to make up what you want...

but for your studying..I think you will find out that the -ma is there because it is the Greek spelling of the word itself for righteousness in the form of a noun...[FONT="Gentium" !important]dikaiō[/FONT][FONT="Gentium" !important]ma[/FONT] ...and thus every other form of this word has -ma in it with just the other suffixes added onto it...

In other words..there is no greek word in the noun form for [FONT="Gentium" !important]dikaiō ( without the -ma ) by itself. ( there is a close verb though....[/FONT]

The Greek word dikaiōma (righteous deed) is a noun based on the verb δικαιόω (justify, make righteous). So dikaiōma means justify effect, or effect of justification (or making righteous), which is righteous deeds.

The effect of Adam's offense is death and more acts of sin. The effect of Christ's justification is righteous deeds.

 

[PeterJens]

For me it comes down to one issue, does Jesus lie?

A person can address an audience of one type but be dealing with an issue that is universal.
Christianity is a Jewish faith. It comes out of the old testament.
The old testament shows Israel were to be the light to the nations. Gods nation on earth.

The principles taught were Gods principles for mankind. The context provided was Israel, but after Jesus came into the world and died, the physical temple where sacrifice was offered, became the heavenly temple before God, where Jesus is our sacrifice for our sins.

The divide is not between self justified religion vs grace, but we do not need God, we are ok vs we are a redeemed people remade in Gods image through Christs love at work in our hearts.

Now the hyper grace version of the gospel, wants to push obedience and discipleship followers of Jesus into legalism and the perfect received new spirit in the believer into the saved camp.

This does not work because legalistic christians are still saved if they trust in Jesus, so they cannot also be lost legalists.
Worse if people really walk in victory over sin, the reason to have this hyper-grace theology is removed and becomes a lie. It becomes a block to letting people into the Kingdom, because they do not trust Jesus for conquering sin, and walking in purity, but trample on His victory rejoicing in defeat and habitual sin.

Jesus criticised the pharisees for now cleansing their hearts and living in hypocracy, which is exactly what hyper-grace is doing but admiting they never conquer sin, it is just the flesh that fails. As Jesus says,

"Very truly I tell you, everyone who sins is a slave to sin" John 8:34

"He has sent me to proclaim freedom for the prisoners and recovery of sight for the blind, to set the oppressed free, to proclaim the year of the Lord’s favor." Luke 4:18-19

Is Jesus lying? This is what you are declaring in your beliefs and theology.

 

[Grace777x70]

All of these translations below say that the linen is the righteousness of the saints - granted ( which means given ) to her.

Christ alone is our righteousness. Doing good deeds do not make the Christian righteous. Jesus blood did that. Thank the Lord Jesus!

Should we call the KJV only club in to settle the matter?...( I say ,...no....... )....because we all know what they would say...

Revelation 19:8 (KJV)
[SUP]8 [/SUP] And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.


BRG Bible (BRG)
American King James Version
Aramaic Bible in Plain English
Darby Bible Translation
Douay-Rheims Bible
English Standard Version
The Scriptures (ISR 1998)
International Standard Version
The Holy Scriptures (Jubilee Bible 2000)
King James Bible
King James 2000
King James Bible: Purple Letter Edition
Orthodox Jewish Bible
Tyndale New Testament
Webster Bible Translation
Geneva Bible (GNV)
Phillips New Testament (PHILLIPS)
Jubilee Bible 2000
The Message (MSG)

 

[Grace777x70]

The effect of Christians being declared righteous is because of Christ's righteousness which He bought for us with His blood....

It is always His righteous deed that makes us righteous...never ours.....that is called works-righteousness...His righteousness is a gift to us....

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

All of these translations below say that the linen is the righteousness of the saints - granted ( which means given ) to her.

Christ alone is our righteousness. Doing good deeds do not make the Christian righteous. Jesus blood did that. Thank the Lord Jesus!

Should we call the KJV only club in to settle the matter?...( I say ,...no....... )....because we all know what they would say...

Revelation 19:8 (KJV)
[SUP]8 [/SUP] And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.


BRG Bible (BRG)
American King James Version
Aramaic Bible in Plain English
Darby Bible Translation
Douay-Rheims Bible
English Standard Version
The Scriptures (ISR 1998)
International Standard Version
The Holy Scriptures (Jubilee Bible 2000)
King James Bible
King James 2000
King James Bible: Purple Letter Edition
Orthodox Jewish Bible
Tyndale New Testament
Webster Bible Translation
Geneva Bible (GNV)
Phillips New Testament (PHILLIPS)
Jubilee Bible 2000
The Message (MSG)

Your list is not acccurate. Just at a quick glance I can see at least 3 that have some form of righteous deeds.

 

[Grace777x70]

Which ones did I miss?...not that it makes any difference....but it's good to know.....opps..sorry..I just saw that the English standard version is not one....good catch..

 

[PeterJens]

Is Jesus lying?

All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.
Matt 28:18-20

We are commanded to make disciples, baptize them, and teach them to obey everything commanded.

Is Jesus lying?