Bible and Money: Why God Supports Free Market Capitalism

[posthuman]

The term "usury" is generally associated with the charging excessive interest.

yes.

and if Jesus says give without demanding it back, what does God consider "excessive" interest? nonzero?
because that's a subjective term. it doesn't matter what you or i think is excessive, not at all. what matters is God's definition.

 

[Mii]

yes.

and if Jesus says give without demanding it back, what does God consider "excessive" interest? nonzero?
because that's a subjective term. it doesn't matter what you or i think is excessive, not at all. what matters is God's definition.

This is another matter that I have some questions about. The lending/loan laws for Israelites seems entirely reasonable for a Christ follower to adopt. Obviously a good bit of comparisons would need to be drawn for a modern day world and how that would translate but it doesn't seem "too" large of a task...at least on a personal level. I like to think that people are inclined to return the favor to others when they are the recipient of generosity.

I don't know too much about investing but it makes sense that there are still plenty of ways to grow capital that would not unduly imposition poor people.

 

[Mii]

What is the purpose of this discussion? I just read the whole thread and looking at how one can get away with oppression legally in the current system I don't understand advocacy for this type of system. Operating within it in the narrow confines of Christianity is "probably" possible, I would be amazed at it existing if it were not feasible to navigate it as an image bearer BUT saying that God supports it is far too strong a claim for me to assent to.

Perhaps if you explained it on a personal level or how you think that a believer is to navigate the discussed system it might be more productive. Otherwise, there are too many "ifs" and since sin is still a factor and unregenerate humanity "mobile" it seems counterproductive to espouse one system over another...that is, unless this is purely theoretical, and if so, to what end?


I'm sincerely curious btw, there have been many things I've agreed with you in the past but this particular one not really. I do think it is interesting at least that the OT system (primarily) blended with the NT system (regarding taxes to Caesar) could be practiced within the current confines in the U.S in a Christian context voluntarily which would be cool.

 

[Nehemiah6]

yes. and if Jesus says give without demanding it back, what does God consider "excessive" interest? nonzero? because that's a subjective term. it doesn't matter what you or i think is excessive, not at all. what matters is God's definition.

You are trying to confuse and confound two separate issues: (1) helping those in need, and (2) making a fair profit in business. Indeed the parables of Christ show us that earning interest on money deposited is not only legitimate but prudent.

Thou oughtest therefore to have put my money to the exchangers, and then at my coming I should have received mine own with usury [interest]. (Mt 25:27)

And I say unto you, Make to yourselves friends of the mammon of unrighteousness; that, when ye fail, they may receive you into everlasting habitations. (Lk 16:9)

necessitates a one-world ruler with an iron fist over the gold trade. hello antichrist

You wanted a solution to *income inequality* and the best you can come up with is the Antichrist? Goes to show that people really do not want solutions. Just want to gripe.

 

[Moses_Young]

The term "usury" is generally associated with the charging excessive interest. But if a fair rate of interest is charged on loans, that is perfectly acceptable. Money should be able to earn money and a loan is essentially an investment.

I think originally (i.e. at the time the bible was written and for many centuries after it was complete), usury was charging any interest on money. Money is/was to be a medium for facilitating exchange (e.g. your gold standard), not a means to produce profit without providing anything of value. The Israelites were permitted to charge interest only to their enemies (as usury is a weapon), but charging to their brethren was the crime of usury.

Christian nations followed this law well into New Testament times, and it was only around the 1600s or so that usury began to be defined as "excessive" interest, which I suppose, is still true, if one considers anything above 0 to be excessive. Otherwise, what is excessive? Many Muslim nations likewise still consider it a crime to charge usury.

 

[Moses_Young]

You are trying to confuse and confound two separate issues: (1) helping those in need, and (2) making a fair profit in business. Indeed the parables of Christ show us that earning interest on money deposited is not only legitimate but prudent.

Thou oughtest therefore to have put my money to the exchangers, and then at my coming I should have received mine own with usury [interest]. (Mt 25:27).

In this parable, the wicked and lazy servant was making God out to be a wicked banker - i.e. making unfair demands on people (sound familiar?) However, the master pointed out the servant's hypocrisy, when he stated (paraphrased) "Well, if you thought me to be a banker, why didn't you at least go out and earn me some usury on that talent?" The parable isn't saying the master was a usurer, or even that usury is/was an acceptable practice, but if the servant really thought that the master was a usurer (and wasn't truly just a lazy and wicked servant), why didn't the servant go out and gain the master some usury, consistent with the beliefs the servant claimed, instead of burying the talent in the ground.

 

[Nehemiah6]

The parable isn't saying the master was a usurer, or even that usury is/was an acceptable practice,

No the parable isn't saying that the master was a usurer, but usury was acceptable if charged against those who were not Hebrews (strangers or Gentiles). Hebrews were to be considered as brethren.

Unto a stranger thou mayest lend upon usury; but unto thy brother thou shalt not lend upon usury: that the LORD thy God may bless thee in all that thou settest thine hand to in the land whither thou goest to possess it. (Deut 23:20)

The Lord was speaking about bankers paying interest on deposits.

 

[apostlez]

[10] Whoever loves money is not satisfied with money, and whoever loves wealth is not satisfied with profit. This also is vanity! [11] When prosperity increases, those who consume it increase. ⌞So its owner gains nothing, except to see his wealth before it is spent⌟ . [12] The sleep of the laborer is pleasant, whether he eats little or much, but the wealth of the rich man does not allow him to rest. (Ecclesiastes 5:10-12 [LEB])

“No one is able to serve two masters. For either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to one and despise the other. You are not able to serve God and money. (Matthew 6:24 [LEB])

No domestic slave is able to serve two masters, for either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to one and will despise the other. You are not able to serve God and money.” (Luke 16:13 [LEB])

For the love of money is a root of all evil, by which some, because they desire it, have gone astray from the faith and have pierced themselves with many pains. (I Timothy 6:10 [LEB])

[1] But know this, that in the last days difficult times will come, [2] for people will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, boasters, arrogant, slanderers, disobedient to parents, ungrateful, unholy, (II Timothy 3:1-2 [LEB])

Your lifestyle must be free from the love of money, being content with what you have. For he himself has said, “I will never desert you, and I will never abandon you.” (Hebrews 13:5 [LEB])

not addicted to wine, not a violent person, but gentle, peaceable, not loving money, (I Timothy 3:3 [LEB])

But Peter said to him, “May your silver ⌞be destroyed along with you⌟ , because you thought ⌞you could acquire⌟ the gift of God by means of money! (Acts 8:20 [LEB])

[15] And he made a whip of cords and drove them all out of the temple courts, both the sheep and the oxen, and he poured out the coins of the money changers and overturned their tables. [16] And to the ones selling the doves he said, “Take these things away from here! Do not make my Father’s house ⌞a marketplace⌟ !” (John 2:15-16 [LEB])

For thus says Yahweh: “You were sold for nothing, and you shall be redeemed without money.” (Isaiah 52:3 [LEB])

He does not lend his money at interest, and does not take a bribe against the innocent. He who does these things will never be shaken. (Psalms 15:5 [LEB])

⌞He charges interest⌟ and takes usury. Then, shall he live? He shall not live, for he did all of these detestable things. Surely he will die! His blood will be on him. (Ezekiel 18:13 [LEB])

[16] Do not fear when a man becomes rich, when the wealth of his house increases, [17] because when he dies he will not take away any of it. His wealth will not follow down after him. (Psalms 49:16-17 [LEB])

[23] And Jesus said to his disciples, “Truly I say to you that with difficulty a rich person will enter into the kingdom of heaven! [24] And again I say to you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than a rich person into the kingdom of God.” (Matthew 19:23-24 [LEB])

[24] And the disciples were astounded at his words. But Jesus answered and said to them again, “Children, how difficult it is to enter into the kingdom of God! [25] It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich person to enter into the kingdom of God.” (Mark 10:24-25 [LEB])

[24] And Jesus took notice of him and said, “How ⌞difficult it is for⌟ those who possess wealth to enter into the kingdom of God! [25] For it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich person to enter into the kingdom of God. (Luke 18:24-25 [LEB])

“But woe to you who are rich, because you have received your comfort. (Luke 6:24 [LEB])

[19] And I will say to my soul, “Soul, you have many possessions stored up for many years. Relax, eat, drink, celebrate!” ’ [20] But God said to him, ‘Fool! This night your life is demanded from you, and the things which you have prepared—whose will they be?’ [21] So is the one who stores up treasure for himself, and who is not rich toward God!” (Luke 12:19-21 [LEB])

[1] But there were also false prophets among the people, as there will be false teachers among you also, who will bring in ⌞destructive heresies⌟ , even denying the Master who bought them, thus bringing on themselves swift destruction. [2] And many will follow their licentious ways, because of whom the way of truth will be reviled. [3] And in greediness they will exploit you with false words, whose condemnation from long ago is not idle, and their destruction is not asleep. (II Peter 2:1-3 [LEB])

[17] Because you are saying, “I am rich, and have become rich, and I have need of nothing,” and you do not know that you are wretched and pitiable and poor and blind and naked, [18] I advise you to buy from me gold refined by fire, in order that you may become rich, and white clothing, in order that you may be clothed and the shame of your nakedness may not be revealed, and eye salve to smear on your eyes, in order that you may see. (Revelation of John 3:17-18 [LEB])

The Ideal System:
[42] And they were devoting themselves to the teaching of the apostles and to fellowship, to the breaking of bread and to prayers. [43] And fear came on every soul, and many wonders and signs were being performed by the apostles. [44] And all who believed were in the same place, and had everything in common. [45] And they began selling their possessions and property, and distributing these things to all, to the degree that anyone had need. [46] And every day, devoting themselves to meeting with one purpose in the temple courts and breaking bread from house to house, they were eating their food with joy and simplicity of heart, [47] praising God and having favor with all the people. And the Lord was adding every day to the total of those who were being saved. (Acts 2:42-47 [LEB])

I am curious to know which of Jesus' teachings or the letters of the apostles led you to believe that capitalism is the way

 

[posthuman]

to confuse and confound two separate issues: (1) helping those in need, and (2) making a fair profit

if someone has to get a loan you don't think that counts as being "in need" ?

it's funny tho because in my copy of the Bible Jesus says give to "everyone that asks of you" ((Mathew 5:42, Luke 6:30))
-- not "only those who ask and are really in need"

where does the Bible say "money should make more money" ?
or is that just your personal maxim, with no actual basis in scripture?

 

[posthuman]

Unto a stranger thou mayest lend upon usury; but unto thy brother thou shalt not lend upon usury: that the LORD thy God may bless thee in all that thou settest thine hand to in the land whither thou goest to possess it. (Deut 23:20)

the tradition of the Jewish understanding of this is that no interest should be charged to any of your brothers.
it is a more modern Gentile interpretation, perpetuated by the KJV mistranslation, that this means only "excessive interest" ((whatever "excessive" subjectively means remaining undefined)) being prohibited.

@Nehemiah6 i don't think you are getting your ethos from the Spirit on this matter. i think your kjv-ism is contributing to you being unable to see this.

 

[posthuman]

The Lord was speaking

pecuniam tuam non dabis ei ad usuram et frugum superabundantiam non exiges
(Leviticus 25:37, Vulgate) ​

​

"usuram" in Latin means "interest"
the term isn't limited to what some individual considers "too much" -- it just means "interest"

"The most hated sort, and with the greatest reason, is usury, which makes a gain out of money itself, and not from the natural object of it. For money was intended to be used in exchange, but not to increase at interest."
- Aristotle, 4th century BC
​

in the English of the 17th century, "usury" was simply a word meaning what Aristotle was describing: the practice of profiting from loans. at all. go ahead and look it up - it will be listed as 'archaic' definition / usage. the charging of any interest on a loan is usury. even the pagans ((e.g. Aristotle)) know that it is unrighteous to make a gain out of money itself.

i'm sure you can imagine how the usage became changed over time by money-loving people.

 

[posthuman]

lend, hoping for nothing again; ​

and your reward shall be great, ​

and ye shall be the children of the Highest​

(Luke 6:35 kjv)​

​

where do i find "charging interest is righteous & God wants you to do it, as long as it's not a lot of interest" in this verse?
@Nehemiah6 can i get a witness?

 

[Nehemiah6]

where do i find "charging interest is righteous & God wants you to do it, as long as it's not a lot of interest" in this verse? @Nehemiah6 can i get a witness?

It is all there in Scripture. But you simply haven't looked hard enough. The Lord tells us that making a profit through profitable, ethical investments is righteous, and a loan is indeed an investment -- not charity. So here is the Scripture. The word "gained" (below) means "I have made a profit".

MATTHEW 25: THE PARABLE OF THE TALENTS
14 For the kingdom of heaven is as a man travelling into a far country,who called his own servants, and delivered unto them his goods.
15 And unto one he gave five talents, to another two, and to another one; to every man according to his several ability; and straightway took his journey.
16 Then he that had received the five talents went and traded with the same, and made them other five talents.
17 And likewise he that had received two, he also gained other two.
18 But he that had received one went and digged in the earth, and hid his lord's money.
19 After a long time the lord of those servants cometh, and reckoneth with them.
20 And so he that had received five talents came and brought other five talents, saying, Lord, thou deliveredst unto me five talents: behold, I have gained beside them five talents more.
21 His lord said unto him, Well done, thou good and faithful servant: thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.
22 He also that had received two talents came and said, Lord, thou deliveredst unto me two talents: behold, I have gained two other talents beside them.
23 His lord said unto him, Well done, good and faithful servant; thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.
24 Then he which had received the one talent came and said, Lord, I knew thee that thou art an hard man, reaping where thou hast not sown, and gathering where thou hast not strawed:
25 And I was afraid, and went and hid thy talent in the earth: lo, therethou hast that is thine.
26 His lord answered and said unto him, Thou wicked and slothful servant, thou knewest that I reap where I sowed not, and gather where I have not strawed:
27 Thou oughtest therefore to have put my money to the exchangers, and then at my coming I should have received mine own with usury.
28 Take therefore the talent from him, and give it unto him which hath ten talents.
29 For unto every one that hath shall be given, and he shall have abundance: but from him that hath not shall be taken away even that which he hath.
30 And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

While this parable definitely has a spiritual application, no one can claim that God and Christ view commercial profits as evil. There could be no free enterprise system without profitability, and earning a fair interest on money is indeed a profit on investment.

Only Communists hate the free enterprise system, so I trust you have not been influenced by Marxist ideology (like BLM and the Democrats).

 

[Moses_Young]

It is all there in Scripture. But you simply haven't looked hard enough. The Lord tells us that making a profit through profitable, ethical investments is righteous, and a loan is indeed an investment -- not charity. So here is the Scripture. The word "gained" (below) means "I have made a profit".

MATTHEW 25: THE PARABLE OF THE TALENTS
14 For the kingdom of heaven is as a man travelling into a far country,who called his own servants, and delivered unto them his goods.
15 And unto one he gave five talents, to another two, and to another one; to every man according to his several ability; and straightway took his journey.
16 Then he that had received the five talents went and traded with the same, and made them other five talents.
17 And likewise he that had received two, he also gained other two.
18 But he that had received one went and digged in the earth, and hid his lord's money.
19 After a long time the lord of those servants cometh, and reckoneth with them.
20 And so he that had received five talents came and brought other five talents, saying, Lord, thou deliveredst unto me five talents: behold, I have gained beside them five talents more.
21 His lord said unto him, Well done, thou good and faithful servant: thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.
22 He also that had received two talents came and said, Lord, thou deliveredst unto me two talents: behold, I have gained two other talents beside them.
23 His lord said unto him, Well done, good and faithful servant; thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.
24 Then he which had received the one talent came and said, Lord, I knew thee that thou art an hard man, reaping where thou hast not sown, and gathering where thou hast not strawed:
25 And I was afraid, and went and hid thy talent in the earth: lo, therethou hast that is thine.
26 His lord answered and said unto him, Thou wicked and slothful servant, thou knewest that I reap where I sowed not, and gather where I have not strawed:
27 Thou oughtest therefore to have put my money to the exchangers, and then at my coming I should have received mine own with usury.
28 Take therefore the talent from him, and give it unto him which hath ten talents.
29 For unto every one that hath shall be given, and he shall have abundance: but from him that hath not shall be taken away even that which he hath.
30 And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

While this parable definitely has a spiritual application, no one can claim that God and Christ view commercial profits as evil. There could be no free enterprise system without profitability, and earning a fair interest on money is indeed a profit on investment.

Only Communists hate the free enterprise system, so I trust you have not been influenced by Marxist ideology (like BLM and the Democrats).

I think you are mistaking investment and usury. In investment, someone puts his resources at risk, but if the investment pays off, takes the reward - his investment plus gains. However, if he loses, he loses his investment.

In usury, the debtor is expected to take all the risk, and yet still pay an ongoing return on the amount loaned. If the investment is lost, the debtor is still expected to pay it back, plus interest.

 

[Nehemiah6]

I think you are mistaking investment and usury.

First of all the term *usury* today does not exactly mean the same as biblical usage. Today it means gouging. So the correct term is interest on a loan.

u•su•ry yoo͞′zhə-rē

• n.
  The practice of lending money and charging the borrower interest, especially at an exorbitant or illegally high rate.
• n.
  An excessive or illegally high rate of interest charged on borrowed money.
• n.
  Interest charged or paid on a loan.

When a person or company makes a loan, it is in fact an investment, since the interest is the profit on a loan. And legitimate profits are the basis of free enterprise. In fact the Parable of the Talents confirms this.

 

[Moses_Young]

First of all the term *usury* today does not exactly mean the same as biblical usage. Today it means gouging. So the correct term is interest on a loan.

u•su•ry yoo͞′zhə-rē

• n.
  The practice of lending money and charging the borrower interest, especially at an exorbitant or illegally high rate.
• n.
  An excessive or illegally high rate of interest charged on borrowed money.
• n.
  Interest charged or paid on a loan.

When a person or company makes a loan, it is in fact an investment, since the interest is the profit on a loan. And legitimate profits are the basis of free enterprise. In fact the Parable of the Talents confirms this.

I'm using the biblical usage. Usury today is the same as usury yesterday. It makes no difference whether we try to sanitise it by calling it interest.

Just because people are called sex workers today doesn't make them any better (or worse) than the prostitutes of the Old Testament. They are doing the same job.

When a person or company makes a loan, it is in fact an investment, since the interest is the profit on a loan. And legitimate profits are the basis of free enterprise. In fact the Parable of the Talents confirms this.

The parable of the talents was about investment. There was no usury charged. The expectation was that the talent would be put to use, and that the servant would return a profit - i.e. doing something useful, not just idly sitting on the money extracting usury. However, the risk belonged to the Master, not to the servants. When the lazy servant indicated the Master was like a banker (i.e. a hard man, and reaping where he did not sow), the Master in turn retorted that if the servant really believed this, why did he not rent out the talent at usury, and at least have some usury to give to the Master he considered hard (and essentially, a thief).

 

[oldethennew]

often in our lives, people, whether family-friends-co-workers, etc, who came to us for 'help',
and ask for a 'loan-financial assistance', etc.,- our response will be according to our relationship -
what ever the 'relationship', it will be on 'our part' to set the rules of the transaction...
before 'conversion', we were always ready to 'loan' to anyone for what ever they told us they
needed it for: but, 'after conversion', God began teaching us the value of righteousness in all
transactions that were brought before us, and believe me, His RULES are quite different than
the 'worlds'...
we, hub and myself, 'never, ever, LOANED anyone any thing again, with 'interest', but it became
a 'free-will-offering' on our part...

 

[Nehemiah6]

The parable of the talents was about investment. There was no usury charged.

Actually the master asked why his one talent had not been given to the bankers so that he could have received it back with interest!

"Usury" in the Bible simply means interest, but today it means exorbitant interest. So exorbitant interest is unethical but reasonable interest is not.

 

[posthuman]

You wanted a solution to *income inequality* and the best you can come up with is the Antichrist? Goes to show that people really do not want solutions. Just want to gripe.

Um that was your solution, not mine.

 

[posthuman]

Thou oughtest therefore to have put my money to the exchangers, and then at my coming I should have received mine own with usury [interest]. (Mt 25:27)

This is speaking of investing and trading, not of making loans in order to generate money from those who need to borrow.