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lil-rush
Guest
I understand what iraasuup is saying. I simply don't agree. Disagreement is not akin to ignoring what someone has to say.
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iraasuup
Guest
No you're right, and disagreement at times can be healthy. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, however no-one is entitiled to use that opinon to sway others and condemn them as sinners. Only God can judge.
That's all I have been trying to say the whole time!
That's all I have been trying to say the whole time!
If people don't want children then why get married? Sex goes with being married. Anyone knows that. People were made to multiply. You are hampered by the world also. Jesus didn't invent birth control. Satan invented it. That's the fact. No matter how you try and twist it to make yourself feel better, birth control.....read the words b i r t h c o n t r o l = stop babies from being born. Thats of satan not of God. I don't wish to make you feel bad. Time people wake up to what they are doing. It's a sin agaisnt God.
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iraasuup
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*agrees with Betsy* no, there's WAY more to marriage then that.
If being married is purely to reproduce, then what about all the childless married couples? What hope have they got? Is God banishing them straight to hell? Of course not. What an ignorant assumption to make!
If being married is purely to reproduce, then what about all the childless married couples? What hope have they got? Is God banishing them straight to hell? Of course not. What an ignorant assumption to make!
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lil-rush
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Before you read this article, yes I know y'all are not Jewish and I know you think you are exempt from obeying the mitzvot, but this article says beautifully what I think.
http://www.ahavat-israel.com/am/children.php
best line in the article: Children, many children, are the greatest gift and blessing that G-d can bestow upon us.
I don't know about you, but if God is willing to give be a great and blessed gift I would do nothing to postpone receiving it.
http://www.ahavat-israel.com/am/children.php
best line in the article: Children, many children, are the greatest gift and blessing that G-d can bestow upon us.
I don't know about you, but if God is willing to give be a great and blessed gift I would do nothing to postpone receiving it.
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iraasuup
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I still don't understand why if we're not jewish you think we should live by the mitzvot?
Isn't that kind of like me saying, I'm not Muslim, but I think we need to live by the Quaran? (which I don't - just to clarify)
I'm just curious, it seems kind of strange to me.
Isn't that kind of like me saying, I'm not Muslim, but I think we need to live by the Quaran? (which I don't - just to clarify)
I'm just curious, it seems kind of strange to me.
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Leilaii425
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iraasuup
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lil-rush
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because I believe the laws were never abolished and are still in effect today, and if Christians want to say they serve God and were grafted into His family, then they should abide by His rules.
That does not negate the relevance of my arguments that birth control is wrong however, since I think one should abstain from birth control whether that person follows the mitzvot or not. After all (though you were unaware of the fact) I did not support birth control before I even started following the mitzvot.
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HollyC
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Could we make the water fountain pepsi flavoured? I would drink it then and then never be able to have children because pepsi is like water to me and I would drink in so much birth control I would be infertile for a life time.
And I'm sorry, I severely disagree. Marriage is more than the procreation of children. Not all marriages are destined for children, it doesn't mean you should be single for the rest of your life because you either don't want or not able to have children. What about people who get married at an older age and procreating would be dangerous for them? Are they supposed to be alone and never marry? Come on!
And I'm sorry, I severely disagree. Marriage is more than the procreation of children. Not all marriages are destined for children, it doesn't mean you should be single for the rest of your life because you either don't want or not able to have children. What about people who get married at an older age and procreating would be dangerous for them? Are they supposed to be alone and never marry? Come on!
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iraasuup
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So by saying you believe that one should abstain from using birth control, are you saying if a couple get married, and don't want children right away, they should just...what? Not have sex until the do?
That is completely absurd. I know people who don't have kids until 10 years after they marry, so what they're supposed to abstain for the first 10 years of marriage? I mean there is more to marriage and sex, then reproduction. No one would want to get married, then not be able to have sex! I certainly don't want to have to abstain just because we're not ready for children.
That is completely absurd. I know people who don't have kids until 10 years after they marry, so what they're supposed to abstain for the first 10 years of marriage? I mean there is more to marriage and sex, then reproduction. No one would want to get married, then not be able to have sex! I certainly don't want to have to abstain just because we're not ready for children.
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lil-rush
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If a couple doesn't want kids, I suggest they don't get married.
If a couple cannot have kids, that is no fault of their own and they should not be punished for it.
If a couple cannot have kids, that is no fault of their own and they should not be punished for it.
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iraasuup
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Don't get married? Are you for real?
So because they may not necassarily want ot reproduce, they're expected to give up lifelong happiness with the pseron they love!
That's the most insane thing I have ever heard. Everyone has to right to CHOOSE to have kids, and quite frankly I wish people would think more about it, instead of just having kids like they are some kind of novelty, and then not coping. Some people aren't cut out to be parents, or they might be but know that they would never be able to provide all that a child needs. There's so many reasons a couple could not have children, and NO ONE can force them do so, or tell them if they don't they are sinning. Simply not true.
So because they may not necassarily want ot reproduce, they're expected to give up lifelong happiness with the pseron they love!
That's the most insane thing I have ever heard. Everyone has to right to CHOOSE to have kids, and quite frankly I wish people would think more about it, instead of just having kids like they are some kind of novelty, and then not coping. Some people aren't cut out to be parents, or they might be but know that they would never be able to provide all that a child needs. There's so many reasons a couple could not have children, and NO ONE can force them do so, or tell them if they don't they are sinning. Simply not true.
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lil-rush
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Yes, I am for real.
Why do you think that I cannot tell someone they are sinning when that person is sinning? I view birth control as a sin. Since when was it wrong to say something is a sin?
If a person is willing to give up "lifelong happiness" just because that person has such an aversion to having children, I would have to question why a person was so set against the idea of having kids. It does not seem natural to me for people to not want children.
Why do you think that I cannot tell someone they are sinning when that person is sinning? I view birth control as a sin. Since when was it wrong to say something is a sin?
If a person is willing to give up "lifelong happiness" just because that person has such an aversion to having children, I would have to question why a person was so set against the idea of having kids. It does not seem natural to me for people to not want children.
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iraasuup
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By your own admission you said 'YOU VIEW birth control as a sin'
My point all along has been that there is NO SCRIPTURAL evidence to support this view. There is NOWHERE in the bible where Jesus forbids the use of birth control.
Therefore, it is not yours or anybody's place to tell others it is a sin. God is the judge He makes the rules, we are to live by His commandments. If you have made a decision for yourself that you don't agree with birthcontrol, well that is fine, but that doesn't make it a sin. It just makes it YOUR PERSONAL CHOICE. Do you see the difference? That's what makes it wrong for you to call it a sin. If it isn't something God has condemned, then what right do we have to do so?
You can say to someone 'This what I believe and why' but using that personal belief to condemn anyone who doesn't agree with you as a sinner, is so not right. Especially if your belief is not based on a clear commandment from God. If it is, then fine - can't argue with God's word, but in this case that doesn't apply. You have gathered information, facts etc and made a decision that is RIGHT for you. Doesn't mean it's right for others, and it certainly doesn't mean if others disagree with you, that they are sinning.
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lil-rush
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there is a difference between condemnation and pointing out that something is a sin.
In any case, I said it was my opinion because I figured saying it was a fact would just make people even more angry. But I see now that was a pointless effort at trying to avoid undue conflict.
And you say God is the judge He makes the rules, we are to live by His commandments yet you already admitted to not following the mitzvot. If we are going to talk about commandments, then I am right in saying birth control is a sin. God said to be fruitful and multiply, Rabbinic law says to fulfill this mitzvot, a couple must have 2 children. Furthermore, certain rabbinic laws say contraceptives are a violation of this mitzvot. (and, it seemed to me like the conversation spread from simple birth control anyhow since you were talking about couples who don't want children at all, in which case the mitzvah to be fruitful and multiply is obviously fully supported by scripture)
You may not agree with my reasoning, but it is reason enough for me to say birth control is a sin, and I am going to tell people it is a sin. People don't have to agree with me, but if they are willing to start a conversation about it they have to endure listening to my views. If one does not want to hear that birth control is a sin, one should stay out of a thread titled "birth control... thoughts?"
In any case, I said it was my opinion because I figured saying it was a fact would just make people even more angry. But I see now that was a pointless effort at trying to avoid undue conflict.
And you say God is the judge He makes the rules, we are to live by His commandments yet you already admitted to not following the mitzvot. If we are going to talk about commandments, then I am right in saying birth control is a sin. God said to be fruitful and multiply, Rabbinic law says to fulfill this mitzvot, a couple must have 2 children. Furthermore, certain rabbinic laws say contraceptives are a violation of this mitzvot. (and, it seemed to me like the conversation spread from simple birth control anyhow since you were talking about couples who don't want children at all, in which case the mitzvah to be fruitful and multiply is obviously fully supported by scripture)
You may not agree with my reasoning, but it is reason enough for me to say birth control is a sin, and I am going to tell people it is a sin. People don't have to agree with me, but if they are willing to start a conversation about it they have to endure listening to my views. If one does not want to hear that birth control is a sin, one should stay out of a thread titled "birth control... thoughts?"
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iraasuup
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Sure I don't deny that God gave the commandment 'Go forth and multiply', but notice he gave that commandment when there were only two people on the planet? Big difference today - but I have already explained that in an earlier post, I won't go over it again.
Also, like I have explained earlier, I am CHRISTIAN, I am not Jewish. Therefore the Rabbinic laws of the Mitzvot simply do not apply to me. I am Christian- I live under a GRACE not a LAW, and I'm eternally thankful for that.
I don't really see how I can make that any clearer. I also don't see how you can use the Rabbinic law that couple must have 2 children to support your argument. YOU agree with that law, and that's fine, but SORRY I don't see that in my Bible anywhere. I follow God's Law, not a law from some Rabbi or any other man, GOD'S!
There's really nothing left to debate here. If you could open up the bible (not a Jewish bible or testament) but THE BIBLE, and show me where God tells me I have to have at least two children, then sure, I'll follow the commandment, but because I know you can't- how about we just agree to disagree?
Matthew 5:17-20
Don't think I have come to abolish the Torah or the Prophets. I have come not to abolish but to complete. Yes indeed! I tell you that until heaven and earth pass away, not so much as a yud or a stroke will pass from the Torah - not until everything that must happen has happened. So whoever disobeys the least of these mitzvot and teaches others to do so will be called least in the Kingdom of Heaven. But whoever obeys them and so teaches will be called great in the Kingdom of Heaven. For I tell you that unless your righteousness is far greater than that of the Torah-teachers and P'rushim, you will certainly not enter the Kingdom of Heaven!
Yeshua's words, btw.
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