Born Again - How Does That Relate To Us Today

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I'm saying the body of Christ isn't all redeemed, but a biblical, NT, local Christian assembly.

Nobody is saved by being a member of some local assembly. That's a belief I've only seem coming from a couple of splinter groups from the CoC and a couple of Charismatic groupings, such as the Brannhamites, but not something within scripture. Where do you get this from?

When born again, a believer has entered the Family and Kingdom, but not a local assembly (body of Christ).

No. Wrong. The Kingdom has nothing to do us who are saved today. That is for ancient Israel and those passing through the Tribulation. The body of Christ will not longer be on this earth nor the new earth to come as we will dwell in Heavenly places. Have you not studied about the reconciliation of Heaven mentioned in scripture?

Conversion is born again..meaning they believed on the Lord Jesus Christ as per John 3:16, 36, 5:24, 6:40, 8:40 etc..

Conversion? What does that mean to you? Scripture doesn't teach about conversion except in the sense of salvation having come unto the Gentiles, but only after the middle wall of partition was no longer a divide between Jew and Gentile. The fall of Israel brought about the conversion of the Gentiles. Acts 15 is the ONLY mention of such.

I'm asking because words have meaning, and when the wrong words are applied in our most-modern era of cavalier indifference to meaning for words, I'm forced to question what others mean in this age of subjectivism.

MM
 
Nobody is saved by being a member of some local assembly. That's a belief I've only seem coming from a couple of splinter groups from the CoC and a couple of Charismatic groupings, such as the Brannhamites, but not something within scripture. Where do you get this from?



No. Wrong. The Kingdom has nothing to do us who are saved today. That is for ancient Israel and those passing through the Tribulation. The body of Christ will not longer be on this earth nor the new earth to come as we will dwell in Heavenly places. Have you not studied about the reconciliation of Heaven mentioned in scripture?



Conversion? What does that mean to you? Scripture doesn't teach about conversion except in the sense of salvation having come unto the Gentiles, but only after the middle wall of partition was no longer a divide between Jew and Gentile. The fall of Israel brought about the conversion of the Gentiles. Acts 15 is the ONLY mention of such.

I'm asking because words have meaning, and when the wrong words are applied in our most-modern era of cavalier indifference to meaning for words, I'm forced to question what others mean in this age of subjectivism.

MM

Wait, I'm not connecting being born again with joining a church. The whole point I'm making is a body of Christ is different to the Family of God.

Know you are a sinner headed for hell, needing Jesus to save you eternally
Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ,that He is God, that He died and rose again. That by believing on His name, you have forgiveness and eternal life.

The Bible separates eternal salvation from joining a church. That's the point.

Im saying that the body of Christ is not entered at new birth. That is entered when someone later joins an NT church.
 
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No. Wrong. The Kingdom has nothing to do us who are saved today. That is for ancient Israel and those passing through the Tribulation. The body of Christ will not longer be on this earth nor the new earth to come as we will dwell in Heavenly places. Have you not studied about the reconciliation of Heaven mentioned in scripture?
Born again and being a new creation are synonymous in my thinking, as in a new spiritual birth, and are related to how one perceives the kingdom, to me the Pharisees and most of Israel had it wrong when they waited for a Messiah to come and deliver them from the kingdom of the Romans and to set up the kingdom of Israel where they will inherit the Land promised and rule by a supposed Godly King.

Instead If they read the Old Testament correctly (although it was veiled to most) they would have have looked for a Messiah to deliver them from their sins, to give them new life. eternal life, and to enter the kingdom of God also referred to as the kingdom of Heaven, the heavenly kingdom where Jesus was going to go to prepare a mansion for all those who believe in Him.

I love reading your posts and you have great insights and a great way of presenting them and when I read some of your points in regards to the kingdom I pretty much ignore them as I have a completely differing view and instead just focus on the bits I agree with and enjoy.

But then I am curious also as to how people circumnavigate obvious conclusions, to come up with differing ones. For example if I have one kingdom and one body of believers who are one and the same group that go to heaven and eventually descend with the Lord to dwell eternally on a newly created earth, I therefore am a bit lost when you talk about Israel(I presume you mean believers) entering the earthly kingdom, I have that kingdom for only 1000 years and not not as a everlasting kingdom with everlasting life but on this earth where sin and death still remain.

For example the heavenly Jerusalem comes down and will be situated on the new earth Rev 21:2 I saw the Holy City, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God

When Christ died he went into the belly of the earth and preached to the spirits in prison, the old testament saints who are held in remand for their sins and are in Sheol. Those in Abrahams bosom are waiting for the good news, Jesus went and preached the good news which is, he has now paid the price for their sins and now they can be released from their holding cell, He has torn that curtain in twain and now they can enter the Holy place also seen as their eternal abode in heaven. Eph 4:8 “When He ascended up on high, He led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.

So when I read your post the first question that popped into my head about ancient Israel was then where does MM see Adam, Noah and Abraham dwelling now? and where will their eternal abode be, with us in heaven or with Israel on earth? I just thought i better give some background to how I see things so you can see why Im asking, So yeah please tell me where you see Adam, Noah and Abraham, is Abraham part of Israel or nah?
 
Wait, I'm not connecting being born again with joining a church. The whole point I'm making is a body of Christ is different to the Family of God.

Know you are a sinner headed for hell, needing Jesus to save you eternally
Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ,that He is God, that He died and rose again. That by believing on His name, you have forgiveness and eternal life.

The Bible separates eternal salvation from joining a church. That's the point.

Im saying that the body of Christ is not entered at new birth. That is entered when someone later joins an NT church.

I agree to an extent, but disagree on the last point.

MM
 
Born again and being a new creation are synonymous in my thinking, as in a new spiritual birth, and are related to how one perceives the kingdom, to me the Pharisees and most of Israel had it wrong when they waited for a Messiah to come and deliver them from the kingdom of the Romans and to set up the kingdom of Israel where they will inherit the Land promised and rule by a supposed Godly King.

The problem with this is what Jesus Himself stated to them:

Matthew 16:28
Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.

That didn't happen...

Luke 9:27
But I tell you of a truth, there be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the kingdom of God.

Again, this never happened...yet.

Dare one read these two in their contexts, Jesus told those people in the perfect present tense and in the that present time and place where He was standing, keeping in mind the grammatical, perfect present tense, that SOME of THEM would still be alive and see His Second Coming within the span of their lifetimes...and that didn't happen, and for good reason.

Instead If they read the Old Testament correctly (although it was veiled to most) they would have have looked for a Messiah to deliver them from their sins, to give them new life. eternal life, and to enter the kingdom of God also referred to as the kingdom of Heaven, the heavenly kingdom where Jesus was going to go to prepare a mansion for all those who believe in Him.

So, What did these verses mean:

Leviticus 16:22
And the goat shall bear upon him all their iniquities unto a land not inhabited: and he shall let go the goat in the wilderness.

Psalm 103:3
Who forgiveth all thine iniquities; who healeth all thy diseases;

So, are you saying forgiveness of sins was not in existence in ancient times before the cross? Please elaborate on this topic in relation to these verses and quote a few others throughout if you like, and bring some coherence to this.

I love reading your posts and you have great insights and a great way of presenting them and when I read some of your points in regards to the kingdom I pretty much ignore them as I have a completely differing view and instead just focus on the bits I agree with and enjoy.

We should all be teachable, including myself in that crowd, which is why I've posed the above question. I've learned much from my students, for which I'm thankful.

But then I am curious also as to how people circumnavigate obvious conclusions, to come up with differing ones. For example if I have one kingdom and one body of believers who are one and the same group that go to heaven and eventually descend with the Lord to dwell eternally on a newly created earth, I therefore am a bit lost when you talk about Israel(I presume you mean believers) entering the earthly kingdom, I have that kingdom for only 1000 years and not not as a everlasting kingdom with everlasting life but on this earth where sin and death still remain.

Please elaborate on that painted portraiture that allegedly states that the body of Christ in Heavenly places will later descend with Christ at His Second Coming, and without injecting meaning into the wording what isn't there. I'd appreciate seeing your thoughts on this. Are you swaying that the holy angels are nowhere in scripture also referred to "saints?"

For example the heavenly Jerusalem comes down and will be situated on the new earth Rev 21:2 I saw the Holy City, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God

When Christ died he went into the belly of the earth and preached to the spirits in prison, the old testament saints who are held in remand for their sins and are in Sheol. Those in Abrahams bosom are waiting for the good news, Jesus went and preached the good news which is, he has now paid the price for their sins and now they can be released from their holding cell, He has torn that curtain in twain and now they can enter the Holy place also seen as their eternal abode in heaven. Eph 4:8 “When He ascended up on high, He led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.

So when I read your post the first question that popped into my head about ancient Israel was then where does MM see Adam, Noah and Abraham dwelling now? and where will their eternal abode be, with us in heaven or with Israel on earth? I just thought i better give some background to how I see things so you can see why Im asking, So yeah please tell me where you see Adam, Noah and Abraham, is Abraham part of Israel or nah?

Their abode will be on the new earth, which is not where we of the body of Christ will be. I have good reason for saying this, but will await your more expansive thinking about all this.

MM
 
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The problem with this is what Jesus Himself stated to them:

Matthew 16:28
Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.

That didn't happen...

Luke 9:27
But I tell you of a truth, there be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the kingdom of God.

Again, this never happened...yet.

Dare one read these two in their contexts, Jesus told those people in the perfect present tense and in the that present time and place where He was standing, keeping in mind the grammatical, perfect present tense, that SOME of THEM would still be alive and see His Second Coming within the span of their lifetimes...and that didn't happen, and for good reason.
If it didnt happen then, then Jesus did not tell them a truth, and he clearly said;

Luke 9:27 But I tell you of a truth, there be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the kingdom of God
.
If it did not happen, even for a good reason, then God said something that was wrong? and even in the old testament I think you would agree Jesus said he would be rejected. So he also cant contradict Himself.


Dare one read these two in their contexts, Jesus told those people in the perfect present tense and in the that present time and place where He was standing, keeping in mind the grammatical, perfect present tense, that SOME of THEM would still be alive and see His Second Coming within the span of their lifetimes...and that didn't happen, and for good reason.

I don't equate the timing of the kingdom at the second coming as you do, and I don't see it as a physical kingdom, and therefore see it as already fulfilled,
For example when we are born again, or if you like when we become a new creation in Christ, we are translated/seated spiritually into the kingdom of God.

Eph 2:6 "And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus"

Luke 17:21 "The kingdom of God does not come with observation; nor will they say, 'See here!' or 'See there!' For indeed, the kingdom of God is within you."

So to me some standing there saw Christ come into his kingdom.
So, What did these verses mean:

Leviticus 16:22
And the goat shall bear upon him all their iniquities unto a land not inhabited: and he shall let go the goat in the wilderness.

Psalm 103:3
Who forgiveth all thine iniquities; who healeth all thy diseases;

So, are you saying forgiveness of sins was not in existence in ancient times before the cross? Please elaborate on this topic in relation to these verses and quote a few others throughout if you like, and bring some coherence to this.
Well yes! and no. The scapegoat foreshadows Christ as our scapegoat, like any of the sacrifices they did not fully cover our sins If they did there would be no need to keep repeating them every year. Also if they did there would have been no need for Christ to go the cross. If I can paraphrase, Jesus asked the father if it was possible that he did not have to partake of the cup, if there was any other way for our sins to be paid let it be another way, Alas there was no other way other than Jesus going to the cross.

I look at it like getting a credit card from the bank, I have no way to pay for things yet I can temporarily cover a bill/sin with my credit card, even though I have paid for my goods, I am still in debt, I dont wipe my debt till I pay the amount off in full, Jesus dying paid my debt, after the cross we use a debit card, we still have sin/bills to pay but the amount has already been paid and our card is in credit.


We should all be teachable, including myself in that crowd, which is why I've posed the above question. I've learned much from my students, for which I'm thankful.
Amen
Please elaborate on that painted portraiture that allegedly states that the body of Christ in Heavenly places will later descend with Christ at His Second Coming, and without injecting meaning into the wording what isn't there. I'd appreciate seeing your thoughts on this. Are you swaying that the holy angels are nowhere in scripture also referred to "saints?"
John 14:2 "In my Father's house are many mansions, if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you."

Rev 21 Now I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away. Also there was no more sea. 2. Then I John, saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride for her husband.

I notice you want me to tie this in with the second coming, sorry, I am unsure of your eschatological timing of things, You may have the second coming before the 1000yrs, Yet I see it as at the end therefore I do have Israel that sets up a kingdom for a 1000yrs then Satan is released after the 1000yrs and gathers the world against earthly Jerusalem and Christ returns at this time to destroy the armies gathered against Israel, and then we get the new heaven and earth, and then Jerusalem will descend down from heaven.

I could quote all Rev 21 for the big picture, but we know what it says, I guess I just see heaven as a place on earth after this stage, I see everything on the previous earth as temporal and the time Israel rules as only 1000yrs.

And I have never thought about it but I think Lean to the point angelic beings have never been referred to as saints, but am ready to stand corrected.


Their abode will be on the new earth, which is not where we of the body of Christ will be. I have good reason for saying this, but will await your more expansive thinking about all this.

MM
Ok Thanks, so I can presume all gentile believers like Naaman also dwell on earth, I notice you said new earth, so in this kingdom on the new earth? Have you stated how you view these end times events anywhere in these forums?
 
If it didnt happen then, then Jesus did not tell them a truth, and he clearly said;

Luke 9:27 But I tell you of a truth, there be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the kingdom of God
.
If it did not happen, even for a good reason, then God said something that was wrong? and even in the old testament I think you would agree Jesus said he would be rejected. So he also cant contradict Himself.

If God were limited to your personal take on how things work with God, then yes, He was dishonest, but what I must then ask you is how much you know about what you call the OT? How many times did God say that something was going to happen to someone or to a nation that He later changed His mind on the basis of circumstances and/or one of the patriarchs standing in the gap for them?

At the time Jesus spoke those words to those people at that time, He spoke absolutely the truth as to His plans for them at that time. What those people didn't know and that wasn't revealed to them at that time is that the statement Jesus made to Israel was based upon the faithfulness of Israel beyond that point.

Please keep in mind that throughout scripture, Israel was symbolized as a fig tree:

Luke 13:6-9
6 He spake also this parable; A certain man had a fig tree planted in his vineyard; and he came and sought fruit thereon, and found none. [Howe long was Jesus' ministry before the cross?]
7 Then said he unto the dresser of his vineyard, Behold, these three years I come seeking fruit on this fig tree, and find none: cut it down; why cumbereth it the ground? [Israel's fall.]
8 And he answering said unto him, Lord, let it alone this year also, till I shall dig about it, and dung it: [What happened one year after the ascension of Christ?]
9 And if it bear fruit, well: and if not, then after that thou shalt cut it down.

Jesus had two pathways before Him, either to leave Israel standing had we accepted Him as Messiah, or cut us down in our unfaithfulness. What happened?

Romans 11:11
I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.

There it is. Israel fell. People ask when, and Luke 13 gives a very good hint that those people could not have known about until afterward. What happened one year after the ascension of Christ? Who was stoned, with an entire chapter attributed to his scathing indictment against Israel? Stephen. Notice that, before, Christ was seated at the right Hand of the Father, but Stephen THEN saw Jesus STANDING at the Father's right Hand. Why? That action speaks of...His going into action, which was to cut down that tree that had failed to produce the fruit of faith.

At the fall of Israel, the original plan changed in the direction of something that remained hidden (mystery) in God from the creation of the world. It was kept that way for VERY good reason:

1 Corinthians 2:7-8
7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:
8 Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

It's not so much the cutting down of Israel that was the mystery, but rather what's revealed in Romans 11:11 above...salvation having come directly unto the Gentiles (if it came to them, that means they didn't have it before, right?) who had no way of salvation before (Eph. 2:12)...other than to join with Israel, but with Israel cut down, something had to happen as an alternative path...salvation had to COME unto the Gentiles who, before, didn't have direct access before. Evangelical pastors reject this vehemently from their pulpits of false teachings, and yet there it is clearly laid out in scripture.

So, yes, the Lord has and can make changes to His statements about individuals and even Israel as a whole by putting them off for a time, as has happened in relation to what He said to those people at that time as it was planned to transpire in that moment. He has every prerogative to stretch out the fulfillments of His earlier declarations. For any of us to assume otherwise, given the track record of the Lord's stated plans for people and individuals throughout time, I personally respect His right over His creation to stretch the time table given alternative contingencies that He chose to keep hidden in Himself for reasons that are later revealed and that Evangelical pastors and the academic leadership of many Bible Cemeteries happen to not like.

Putting the pieces together, like a puzzle, is what one must do, no matter how unfair it seems to a number of university students out there who thought it should all be laid out in a methodical and (to them) seemingly logical line of understandable storyline. God isn't sovereign as most people tend to define that descriptor because He is still governed by His nature alone, and therefore has limitations within Himself. It's within Him to break up the narratives into pieces, parsed out to different of the prophets and apostles at different times. I'm not saying you think otherwise on all this, but I felt this needed to be said generally speaking.

Does this help?

MM
 
If it didnt happen then, then Jesus did not tell them a truth,...

Note: I would be very careful about accusing the Lord of dishonesty as a conclusion made without understanding the panorama of what ALL scripture has to say on the subject and in relation to the seas of peoples and nations. That He chose to keep some things hidden in Himself so as to keep even the demon princes from knowing His plans, that's well within the scope of His governing Nature, and for us to apply a subjective ethic, rooted in our fallen understanding, as an accusation of dishonesty, please be careful. Perhaps that wasn't your intent based upon your current understanding of the texts, but that's how it comes across to the casual reader. I'm just as guilty of leaving loose ends at times in my statements. I too am imperfect and welcome correction and rebuke from fellow believers, thus weighing their replies to me with as careful of thoughtful acceptance as can be applied in my limited capacity if there be merit to their corrections.

Blessings.

MM
 
If God were limited to your personal take on how things work with God, then yes, He was dishonest, but what I must then ask you is how much you know about what you call the OT? How many times did God say that something was going to happen to someone or to a nation that He later changed His mind on the basis of circumstances and/or one of the patriarchs standing in the gap for them?
Of course I would say God can never be dishonest, and this seems to be a recurring theme in relation to the sovereignty of God and predestination. The argument is pretty much the same, as the folk who say Adam when he chose if he ate of the fruit or not, conclude if he didn't eat of the fruit then sin would not have entered into mankind and all humanity, there would be no death as we would eat freely of the tree of life. As if that was a possible outcome that Adam may not have ate of it.

I am the one who would say God is absolutely sovereign, He knows the end from beginning and everything happens according to His divine will as from the beginning, nothing catches Him from by surprise, He did not go uh oh, "the little rascal ate from the tree of knowledge, Im going to have to think of a way I can fix this." It was foreknown, the plan was already in place before creation, He knew we were going to be sinners, He knows we are sinners for that is the plan, that we may know what sin is, hopefully hate it and ask for forgiveness and life which includes us going through a refining fire to remove the slag(sin) to make us pure(sinless in eternity). In heaven we will appreciate the bigger picture and see the whole fallen world as something that had to happen for our benefit.

Its a similar argument as the replacement folk use, God has done away with Israel and God has changed His plans in regards to Israel and the third temple, so they who say Ezek ch 40-48 are no longer valid because Israel rejected the Messiah, say God changed His mind in regards to Israel! So they might as well grab some whiteout and remove the chapters the oracles of God from our bibles for they are no longer valid.

So in my head Jesus knew he was going to be despised and rejected He knew He was going to His death, He knew there was going to be this mysterious age of 2000yrs that was also foretold, albeit concealed BUT NOW revealed, A 1000yrs where Israel rules in a physically blessed kingdom, the land dug up and dunged, Yet at the end Messiah will still be rejected except for the remnant.

So when I read the verses about the kingdom, like my kingdom is not of this world if it were my servants would fight, Flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, there are some standing here who will not taste death before they see me come into my kingdom, or you unless he be born of water and spirit he cannot enter the kingdom of God, or born again cannot see the kingdom of God, the kingdom of God is within you, I don't think the Lord is referring to a physical kingdom on earth but more likely a heavenly kingdom.

Also if I combine it with verses like, we are pilgrims or strangers in the world, our citizenship is in heaven, we are now seated in the heavenlies, and those of faith like Abraham who desired a heavenly country where God has prepared a city for them, makes me think that the kingdom Jesus talks about is spiritual not physical.

So when I read that verse that says "there are some standing here who will not taste death before they see me come into my kingdom" I already have it in my head He's talking about them seeing the Lord ascend not descend, that they have seen the Lord in his resurrection or glory and upon receiving the Holy spirit they become citizens of the heavenly kingdom and they can now see the Lord there reigning in His kingdom.

I wish I knew the OT way better than what I do, and If I had your point of view I suppose I could try and use Moses interceding on Israel's behalf to change God's mind, but I would also know there are also scriptures that say God does repent and others that say not repent of things so you my think may angle on it would be making God dishonest, yet I don't think I am.

Abraham interceding for Lot is an easier example, its a needed example for someone like me that thinks everything is predestined and in Gods hand, I could say to myself why pray or ask for anything if its already decided, yet its the asking its the talking to God its letting Him know my feelings, it's being friends with God, Abraham let God know about his concerns in regards to his nephew, and God listens to those concerns, the fact is that God had no intention of turning Lot to ash and the why not, is probably where we may differ and may end up more philosophical in thinking.



At the time Jesus spoke those words to those people at that time, He spoke absolutely the truth as to His plans for them at that time. What those people didn't know and that wasn't revealed to them at that time is that the statement Jesus made to Israel was based upon the faithfulness of Israel beyond that point.

Please keep in mind that throughout scripture, Israel was symbolized as a fig tree:

Luke 13:6-9
6 He spake also this parable; A certain man had a fig tree planted in his vineyard; and he came and sought fruit thereon, and found none. [Howe long was Jesus' ministry before the cross?]
7 Then said he unto the dresser of his vineyard, Behold, these three years I come seeking fruit on this fig tree, and find none: cut it down; why cumbereth it the ground? [Israel's fall.]
8 And he answering said unto him, Lord, let it alone this year also, till I shall dig about it, and dung it: [What happened one year after the ascension of Christ?]
9 And if it bear fruit, well: and if not, then after that thou shalt cut it down.

Jesus had two pathways before Him, either to leave Israel standing had we accepted Him as Messiah, or cut us down in our unfaithfulness. What happened?

Romans 11:11
I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.

There it is. Israel fell. People ask when, and Luke 13 gives a very good hint that those people could not have known about until afterward. What happened one year after the ascension of Christ? Who was stoned, with an entire chapter attributed to his scathing indictment against Israel? Stephen. Notice that, before, Christ was seated at the right Hand of the Father, but Stephen THEN saw Jesus STANDING at the Father's right Hand. Why? That action speaks of...His going into action, which was to cut down that tree that had failed to produce the fruit of faith.

At the fall of Israel, the original plan changed in the direction of something that remained hidden (mystery) in God from the creation of the world. It was kept that way for VERY good reason:

1 Corinthians 2:7-8
7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:
8 Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

It's not so much the cutting down of Israel that was the mystery, but rather what's revealed in Romans 11:11 above...salvation having come directly unto the Gentiles (if it came to them, that means they didn't have it before, right?) who had no way of salvation before (Eph. 2:12)...other than to join with Israel, but with Israel cut down, something had to happen as an alternative path...salvation had to COME unto the Gentiles who, before, didn't have direct access before. Evangelical pastors reject this vehemently from their pulpits of false teachings, and yet there it is clearly laid out in scripture.

So, yes, the Lord has and can make changes to His statements about individuals and even Israel as a whole by putting them off for a time, as has happened in relation to what He said to those people at that time as it was planned to transpire in that moment. He has every prerogative to stretch out the fulfillments of His earlier declarations. For any of us to assume otherwise, given the track record of the Lord's stated plans for people and individuals throughout time, I personally respect His right over His creation to stretch the time table given alternative contingencies that He chose to keep hidden in Himself for reasons that are later revealed and that Evangelical pastors and the academic leadership of many Bible Cemeteries happen to not like.

Putting the pieces together, like a puzzle, is what one must do, no matter how unfair it seems to a number of university students out there who thought it should all be laid out in a methodical and (to them) seemingly logical line of understandable storyline. God isn't sovereign as most people tend to define that descriptor because He is still governed by His nature alone, and therefore has limitations within Himself. It's within Him to break up the narratives into pieces, parsed out to different of the prophets and apostles at different times. I'm not saying you think otherwise on all this, but I felt this needed to be said generally speaking.

Does this help?

MM
Thanks, I have the desire to respond to everything just not the time, as am limited, and I don't mind looking at myself and asking myself have I got it wrong, is the Lord talking about Israel's physical kingdom? could they have chosen to accept Jesus? Does a whole nation get born again, then I'm like yeah nah!
 
Of course I would say God can never be dishonest, and this seems to be a recurring theme in relation to the sovereignty of God and predestination.

Sovereignty? God? No, He is not sovereign.

  1. Sovereignty requires the ability to do otherwise.
  2. If God’s actions are governed by His nature, then His nature “fixes” what He must do.
  3. Therefore God can’t ultimately do otherwise, so He isn’t fully sovereign.
Assumption A (Sovereignty criterion):
For God to be sovereign, God must have the power to choose among alternatives including alternatives that contradict His nature (i.e., He must be able to will otherwise in a way not fixed by His own essence/character).

Assumption B (Nature-governance thesis):
God’s own nature governs His will such that God cannot will in ways that contradict His nature (i.e., His willing is fixed by what He is).

Steps​

  1. From Assumption B, God cannot will alternatives that contradict His nature.
  2. From Assumption A, sovereignty requires God to be able to will those alternatives (to be able to choose otherwise even against His nature).
  3. Therefore, God fails the sovereignty requirement.
  4. Hence, God cannot be sovereign (on these definitions).

Some out there push the governing nature of God under His own subjective control, even though we're told by scripture by the Lord Himself what He cannot do:

  • “Thou shalt not bow down thyself unto them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God…” (God cannot be indifferent to idolatry is clearly indicated from His jealous nature) — Exodus 20:5
  • “For God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent.” — Numbers 23:19
  • “God is not a man, that he should lie.” — Titus 1:2 (Paul repeats the point: God cannot lie.)
  • “He cannot deny himself.” — 2 Timothy 2:13
  • “In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began.” — Titus 1:2
  • “There is none other God but me; a just God and a Saviour; there is none beside me.” — Isaiah 45:21
    (God’s exclusive identity grounds moral consistency; “cannot” is not explicit, but the exclusivity is stated.)
  • “God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.” — 1 John 1:5
    (Again, not phrased with “cannot,” but it states absolute moral/ontological purity.)
  • “The counsel of the LORD standeth for ever, the thoughts of his heart to all generations.” — Psalm 33:11
    (God’s plan doesn’t fail; “cannot” isn’t explicit but is well established as an absolute.)

Sorry, but for us to be on the same page, I felt it important to address your statements about God that don't match up with scripture as to who He is and those things by which the Lord Himself is governed.

MM