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Born Again?
- Thread starter Jruiz
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IMO when we receive Jesus by believing in His name we are begotten by God. (John 1: 12, 13) The word (the seed) is implanted in our hearts (James 1: 21) and we are given the right to become children of God. We become children of God by faith through baptism. (Gal. 3: 26, 27) When we are baptized in the name of Christ for the forgiveness of our sins, Jesus pours out the Holy Spirit upon us, immersing us in the Spirit also. As we come forth from the water and Spirit, we are born again, children of God. It is important, but sometimes confusing, to under the difference between the begettal and the birth. God bless.
Since the Holy Spirit is the source of LIVING WATER and Jesus said in John 4:14 - but whoever drinks of the water that I shall give him will never thirst. But the water that I shall give him will become in him a fountain of water springing up into everlasting life. This living water is not water baptism, and Jesus did not say born of baptism and the Spirit in John 3:5, so the water in John 3:5 and John 4:10 and John 4:14 and John 7:38 is not baptism.
So your assumption about "water" in John 3:5 being water baptism is merely an assumption in an attempt to accommodate your CoC theology. In John 4:14, Jesus said - but whoever drinks of the water that I shall give him will never thirst. But the water that I shall give him will become in him a fountain of water springing up into everlasting life. This water is not water baptism and is connected with receiving everlasting life. If "water" is arbitrarily defined as baptism, then we could just as justifiably say, "Out of his heart will flow rivers of living baptism" in John 7:38. If this sounds ridiculous, it is no more so than the idea that water baptism is the source or means of becoming born again.
The natural man can only understand natural water.
Not simply given the right "to become" children of God but then don't actually become children of God until later, after we accomplish something further, but given the right and actually do become children of God by believing in His name BEFORE water baptism. (John 3:15,16,18,36; 5:24; 6:40,47; 11:25,26; 20:31; Acts 10:43; 13:39; 16:31; Romans 1:16; 3:22-28; 4:5,6; 1 Corinthians 1:21; 1 John 5:13 etc..).
That's not what Paul said. That's what the CoC says. Galatians 3:26 - For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. This verse ends with a period. It's not by faith and baptism, but simply by FAITH. Notice in Galatians 3:27, that those who were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. Now for the word “enduo” (put on). This word also appears in Romans 13:14 where we read, “But put on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make no provision for the flesh, to fulfill it’s lusts.” This exhortation is not to a sinner, telling him to be baptized to “put on” Christ, but it is written to Christians. Evidently then, baptism is not the only way to “put on” Christ. To “put on” Christ is to conform to Him, imitate Him. So it is in baptism; we “put on” Christ, conforming to Him in the ordinance that declares Him to be our Savior. So if we must “put on” Christ to be saved through water baptism, apparently we are not saved yet. We must also “put on” Christ by making no provision for the flesh, to fulfill its lusts (Romans 13:14). Right? Let’s be consistent.
As Greek scholar A.T. Robertson explains - “This verb is common in the sense of putting on garments (literally and metaphorically as here). In I Thessalonians 5:8 Paul speaks of “putting on the breastplate of righteousness.” He does not here mean that one enters into Christ and so is saved by means of baptism after the teaching of the mystery religions, but just the opposite. We are justified by faith in Christ, not by circumcision or by baptism. But baptism was the public profession and pledge, the soldier’s sacramentum, oath of fealty to Christ, taking one’s stand with Christ, the symbolic picture of the change wrought by faith already. One does not put on a uniform in order to become a soldier. Simply putting on a soldier’s uniform does not make one a soldier. Once he is made a soldier he is then able to wear the uniform that distinguishes or marks him as a soldier. Putting on a judge’s robe does not, in itself, make anyone a “judge.” But, one who has been made a judge is qualified to put on “judicial robes” and thus declare his qualifications. So too with being baptized the Christian puts on robes for which he has previously been qualified to wear. The putting on of Christian attire is not what makes one a Christian, but one which becomes a token of it. If one puts on the clothes of a Christian, in water baptism, without first becoming a Christian, then he becomes an imposter, and is declaring, in baptism, to be what he is not.
Water baptism is in regards to/on the basis of the forgiveness of sins received upon repentance/believes in Him (Acts 3:19; 10:43-47; 11:17,18), not in order to obtain the remission of sins. In Matthew 3:11, we read - I baptize you with water (for) repentance.. Is this baptism with water for "in order to obtain" repentance or "in regards to/on the basis of" repentance?
Unfortunately, I see that you remain completely confused. Thanks to the CoC.
Living Water
IMO the gift of God (John 4: 10) is the Holy Spirit that is given to us by Jesus when we repent and are baptized in water, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of our sins. (Acts 2: 38, 39) Jesus pours forth (Acts 2: 33) the Holy Spirit upon those who believe (John 7: 38, 39 and obey. (Acts 5: 32) This gift is referred to as living water. (John 4: 10) This water (Holy Spirit) shall become a well of water, springing up to eternal life. Thus eternal life is received after believing, after being baptized in water and after receiving the gift of the Holy Spirit. John 7: 39 again indicates He was speaking of the Spirit, which was not yet given until Jesus was glorified, ascended to heaven. The gift of the Holy Spirit is given to all believers when they obey. The Spirit is metaphorically poured out (the Spirit is not a physical entity) richly and abundantly through Jesus Christ, totally immersing the obedient believers with the Spirit. This is in contrast to the old covenant where the oil of gladness (which represented the Holy Spirit) was poured out only upon the head of the recipient. Every aspect of our being is exposed to the work and influence of the Holy Spirit. Not only that, but all of us who were baptized into the one body were made to drink of one Spirit (1 Cor. 12: 13) so that we have the Spirit both without and within us. Ezekiel prophesied centuries ago that after we were sprinkled clean with water, God would give us a new heart and put a new spirit within us “And I will put My Spirit within you.” (Ez. 36: 25- 27)
When we come forth from this baptismal experience, having been immersed in both literal water and metaphorically immersed in the Spirit, we are born again, born of water and the Spirit. I don’t have the energy to respond to all your misrepresentations and rantings but I pray that you will deny yourself so that God may open your eyes. God bless.
IMO the gift of God (John 4: 10) is the Holy Spirit that is given to us by Jesus when we repent and are baptized in water, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of our sins. (Acts 2: 38, 39) Jesus pours forth (Acts 2: 33) the Holy Spirit upon those who believe (John 7: 38, 39 and obey. (Acts 5: 32) This gift is referred to as living water. (John 4: 10) This water (Holy Spirit) shall become a well of water, springing up to eternal life. Thus eternal life is received after believing, after being baptized in water and after receiving the gift of the Holy Spirit. John 7: 39 again indicates He was speaking of the Spirit, which was not yet given until Jesus was glorified, ascended to heaven. The gift of the Holy Spirit is given to all believers when they obey. The Spirit is metaphorically poured out (the Spirit is not a physical entity) richly and abundantly through Jesus Christ, totally immersing the obedient believers with the Spirit. This is in contrast to the old covenant where the oil of gladness (which represented the Holy Spirit) was poured out only upon the head of the recipient. Every aspect of our being is exposed to the work and influence of the Holy Spirit. Not only that, but all of us who were baptized into the one body were made to drink of one Spirit (1 Cor. 12: 13) so that we have the Spirit both without and within us. Ezekiel prophesied centuries ago that after we were sprinkled clean with water, God would give us a new heart and put a new spirit within us “And I will put My Spirit within you.” (Ez. 36: 25- 27)
When we come forth from this baptismal experience, having been immersed in both literal water and metaphorically immersed in the Spirit, we are born again, born of water and the Spirit. I don’t have the energy to respond to all your misrepresentations and rantings but I pray that you will deny yourself so that God may open your eyes. God bless.
JRuiz--
Compare the Nicodemus passage with the verse you have at the foot of your post:
John 3:16
No water baptism is in this verse. It's a 'believing and given eternal life' verse. This IS being born of the Holy Spirit.
Add to this:
Romans 10
(Rom 10:9) That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
No water baptism...
(Rom 10:10) For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
No water baptism...
(Rom 10:11) For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
No water baptism....
(Rom 10:12) For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.
(Rom 10:13) For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
No water baptism.....
No water baptism in this.. it is a more a thorough look at John 3:16 in a way.
So the point being.. the Nicodemus verses.. you can put alongside these verses.. and then work it out. The bible never contradicts itself.
Compare the Nicodemus passage with the verse you have at the foot of your post:
John 3:16
No water baptism is in this verse. It's a 'believing and given eternal life' verse. This IS being born of the Holy Spirit.
Add to this:
Romans 10
(Rom 10:9) That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
No water baptism...
(Rom 10:10) For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
No water baptism...
(Rom 10:11) For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
No water baptism....
(Rom 10:12) For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.
(Rom 10:13) For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
No water baptism.....
No water baptism in this.. it is a more a thorough look at John 3:16 in a way.
So the point being.. the Nicodemus verses.. you can put alongside these verses.. and then work it out. The bible never contradicts itself.
“Born again” is a term used by some Christians and some denominations. It was not a term I was taught while growing up in church.
But I certainly had a “born again” experience, I think, when the Lord revealed himself to me many years ago.
The Holy Spirit is given to us when we repent and believe the gospel BEFORE WATER BAPTISM (Acts 10:43-47; 11:17,18; 15:7-9). Ephesians 1:13 - In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation - having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise. In Acts 2:38, "for the remission of sins" does not refer back to both clauses, "you all repent" and "each one of you be baptized," but refers only to the first. Peter is saying "repent unto the remission of your sins," the same as in Acts 3:19. The clause "each one of you be baptized" is parenthetical. As I already explained to you, faith in Jesus Christ "implied in genuine repentance" (rather than water baptism) brings the remission of sins and the gift of the Holy Spirit (Acts 2:38; 3:19; 10:43-47; 11:17,18; 15:8,9; 16:31). *Perfect Harmony*
Those who have chosen to believe the gospel (John 7:38; Romans 1:16) have obeyed (Romans 10:16). It's not believe and obey a check list of works, it's simply believe (John 3:15,16,18; 7:38; Acts 10:43; 13:39; 16:31) choosing to believe is the act of obedience that saves.
The Holy Spirit is the source of living water in which we receive spiritual cleansing. Plain ordinary H20 has no power to spiritually cleanse us and cause us to become born again..
The gift of the Holy Spirit is given to all believers when they obey (Romans 10:16) by choosing to BELIEVE (Acts 10:43-47; 11:17,18; 15:8,9) BEFORE being baptized in water.
1 Corinthians 12:13 is referring to SPIRIT baptism, not water baptism. 1 Corinthians 12:13 - For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body, whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free, and we were all made to drink of one Spirit. Take note of the word "drink" here and go back and read John 4:10 - Jesus answered and said to her, "If you knew the gift of God, and who it is who says to you, 'Give Me a drink,' you would have asked Him, and He would have given you living water."
Now read John 4:14 but whoever drinks of the water that I will give him shall never thirst; but the water that I will give him will become in him a well of water springing up to eternal life."
Now read John 7:37 - Now on the last day, the great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried out, saying, "If anyone is thirsty, let him come to Me and drink. *Are you finally getting the picture about this WATER the Jesus connects with eternal life?
And you think this clean water is plain ordinary H20? You continue to confuse the symbol with the substance.
Water baptism is the PICTURE, NOT THE REALITY and water baptism is not the source or cause of us becoming born again. When are you going to get that through your head?
You don't have the discernment to understand the truth that I have been explaining to you. 1 Corinthians 2:14 - But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. I have already thoroughly refuted your misrepresentations and rantings as you continue to "parrot off" what your CoC predecessors before you have taught. God has opened my eyes to the truth several years ago, after I left the Roman Catholic church and the so called church of Christ, with their perverted gospel and all of their false teachings. It's a shame that human pride will not allow you to come to Christ. Your hands are full of your works and you will not let go in order to take hold of Christ through faith. See 2 Corinthians 4:3,4. I pray that you will come to repent and believe the gospel before it's too late. I will continue to pray for you and God bless.
K
KennethC
Guest
You mention here Acts 2:38 but in your first sentence you have changed the order in that scripture !!!
For it says there repentance and baptism takes place then the Holy Spirit is given, not as you have said of, "repent, Holy Spirit, and then baptism.
For it says there repentance and baptism takes place then the Holy Spirit is given, not as you have said of, "repent, Holy Spirit, and then baptism.
As I already explained to plain talk, in Acts 2:38, "for the remission of sins" does not refer back to both clauses, "you all repent" and "each one of you be baptized," but refers only to the first. Peter is saying "repent unto the remission of your sins," the same as in Acts 3:19. The clause "each one of you be baptized" is parenthetical. So water baptism does not precede receiving the forgiveness of sins and the gift of the Holy Spirit.
What is the order in Acts 10:43-47? What about Acts 11:17,18? What about Acts 15:8,9?
K
KennethC
Guest
Taking scriptures out of the bible and making them stand alone like this is false exegesis when it comes to studying scripture.
For example Lord Jesus said believe in Him and you will be saved, and some take this to stand alone, but Jesus also said in Luke 6:46-49 that the one's who believe in Him as Lord are those who do what He said.
So you can take all the scriptures you want from the bible that does not mention water baptism, but that does not mean it still is not to be done. For other scriptures from Jesus, Peter, and Paul says it does !!!
K
KennethC
Guest
Wrong Acts 2:38 clearly says repentance and baptism both come before the Holy Spirit is given, and as for bringing up Acts 10-11, 15 that was only the Lord giving the Holy Spirit first to gentile believers to prove a point to contentious Jewish believers that we have the same right to salvation as they do.
That in those chapters of Acts 10, 11, and 15 are not to be taken as the norm, as Acts 2:38 is the norm on how and when the Holy Spirit is given. As even look at Acts 5:32 where it says that God gives the Holy Spirit only to those who obey, but by your understanding of given immediate at faith then there is nothing to obey which would contradict.
Jesus commanded it..........Matthew 28:19-20, Mark 16:16
Apostle Peter commanded it..........Acts 2:38, Acts 10:48
Apostle Paul carried it out............. Acts 18:8, Acts 19:5, 1 Corinthians 1:14-16
The other Apostles continued to carry it out as well..........John 4:2
Why when Jesus 12 Apostles were baptizing others during His earthly ministry did He not tell them to stop, and why did they including Paul continue to baptize after His death and ascension if it is not needed ? Why did the Lord command it instead ?
Wrong. If one associates forgiveness with baptism, the verse translated into English, with due accord to person and number, would read like this, "let him [third singular] be baptized for the remission of your [second plural] sins." But, such an interpretation or translation would be supporting an absurdity. It would be affirming that an individual's baptism remitted the sin of others, in this case, that of the Pentecostal penitents, or of the crowd, as a group. The structure of Acts 2:38 illustrates that the command to be baptized is parenthetical and is not syntactically connected to remission of sins. When Peter commanded the people to repent, he was speaking to the crowd. Then the command to be baptized was directed to each individual. In the "remission of your sins" phrase, Peter again directed his words to the crowd collectively.
Speaking in tongues demonstrated to the Jews that the Gentiles have received the Holy Spirit and were saved BEFORE WATER BAPTISM (Acts 10:43-47; 11:17,18) and that God had accepted the Gentiles. These were not lost children of the devil speaking in tongues after receiving the gift of the Holy Spirit BEFORE WATER BAPTISM.
That is false and is a desperate attempt to get around the truth. When was the Holy Spirit given in Acts 10:43-47; 11:17,18; 15:8,9 AND Ephesians 1:13? Your biased interpretation of Acts 2:38 does not trump these verses.
Just like plain talk, you write a blank check with the word "obey" and fill in what ever amount of works you feel are necessary to be saved by. We obey the gospel by choosing to believe the gospel (Romans 10:16). Choosing to place our faith in Christ for salvation is the act of obedience that saves. I knew you were hung up on works.
So which of these verses say, "whoever is not water baptized will not be saved?" Water baptism is commanded for believers and FOLLOWS repentance/faith/salvation.
Nobody is saying don't get water baptized after conversion. I was water baptized AFTER I believed in the Lord Jesus Christ and was saved. Just because water baptism is not the means of our salvation does not mean that we should not do it. Taking the Lord's Supper is not the means of our salvation either, but we are commanded to do so. Is your philosophy, "if water baptism is not the means of our salvation, then we are wasting our time getting water baptized?"
K
KennethC
Guest
That is not a desperate attempt of Acts 10, 11, and 15 as I will show you;
Acts 10:45
And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Acts 11:2
And when Peter was come up to Jerusalem, they that were of the circumcision contended with him,
Acts 11:18
When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.
Acts 15:7
And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe.
There was disputes and contentions between the Jews on rather the Gentiles received this same right of salvation through the Lord Jesus, and that is why these Gentile believers were given the Holy Spirit first.
As for the last two parts getting baptized into the Lord is when one is immersed into water, notice how in Acts 19:5-6 Apostle Paul had those baptized into the Lord and then after he laid his hands on them did the Holy Spirit come to them.
I can also reverse and pose a question to you;
Can a person always disobey the Lord and still be saved ???
If your answer is yes then I can show you some scriptures that say's disobedience leads to eternal punishment !!!
I do not believe that Baptism is Mandatory to receive Salvation.
Ephesians 2:8-9 (NKJV)
[SUP]8 [/SUP] For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God,
[SUP]9 [/SUP] not of works, lest anyone should boast.
Clearly God has told us Salvation is received by Grace and Faith. Nowhere in this verse is Baptism,
I do believe Jesus Christ DOES want us to be Baptized.
What about people who know they are dying like in a building on fire. How can they be Baptized? Can they receive Salvation without Baptism? I believe the answer is Yes they can receive Salvation before they die.
Ephesians 2:8-9 (NKJV)
[SUP]8 [/SUP] For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God,
[SUP]9 [/SUP] not of works, lest anyone should boast.
Clearly God has told us Salvation is received by Grace and Faith. Nowhere in this verse is Baptism,
I do believe Jesus Christ DOES want us to be Baptized.
What about people who know they are dying like in a building on fire. How can they be Baptized? Can they receive Salvation without Baptism? I believe the answer is Yes they can receive Salvation before they die.
K
KennethC
Guest
Once again there are different standards for a person who comes to Christ at the end of their life (death bed confession for example), and one who excepts Jesus at an early point in life and continues to live for more years.
The death bed confession will receive mercy from the Lord as the scriptures show, however one who knows what to do in the faith as the Lord's words in His teachings and commands tell us will be held accountable for their disobedience if they do not do as He said.
And those who are always disobedient to His commands Jesus says in Luke 12:46 will be placed with the unbelievers at judgment and cast to outer darkness (Matthew 25:30).
Do you think the Lord would command something to be done if it was worthless or was not needed ???
Baptism BEFORE the Holy Spirit is given?
Wow.
I had no idea you believed this!
I know you believe salvation can be lossed.. but didn't think you had baptism before receiving the Holy Spirit!
That sheds a whole new light on things..
Aside from that.. you were posting that the Romans 10 verses.. just because they don't include baptism.. doesn't mean you don't have to be be baptised.
Well.. the thing is there a whole lot more verses that seperate eternal salvation from water baptism. The thief on the cross never got baptised for a start.
In the Old Testament, believers were saved without baptism..
In the New Testament, the reason baptism is very close in time to being saved is because back then, people were more prepared to be baptised ASAP after being saved.
The other thing is there is a difference between an individual receiving the Holy Spirit for salvation and a group of christians becoming a church and being given the Comforter as their Lampstand.
Some verses are about the individual.. others are in the corporate sense.. like in Acts with Pentecost. The church at Jerusalem firstly was Jesus and the disciples. Then Jesus ascended to heaven and then sent His Comforter at Pentecost. This was the beginning of the administration of the Holy Spirit for His churches.
Salvation was the same way before Pentecost for the individual.. but the Comforter 'had not yet been given' in the corporate sense for guiding a local church.
When Jesus said you must be born of the water and Spirit to be able to enter the kingdom of heaven,He was referring to both in a spiritual sense,not anything to do with the water referring to the physical birth of people.
[SUP]15 [/SUP]And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.
[SUP]16 [/SUP]He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned(Mark 16:16).
Jesus said we must be baptized to be saved.
βαπτίζω baptízō, bap-tid'-zo; from a derivative of G911; to immerse, submerge; to make whelmed (i.e. fully wet); used only (in the New Testament) of ceremonial ablution, especially (technically) of the ordinance of Christian baptism:—Baptist, baptize, wash.
This is the definition of baptized in this verse Mark 16:16.
[SUP]38 [/SUP]Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
[SUP]39 [/SUP]For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call(Acts 2:38-39).
Peter preached this message on how to be saved,and said baptism is for the remission of sins,which washes your sins away.
In the book of Acts Jews,Gentiles,and Samaritans,were all baptized in Jesus' name.
In the book of Matthew,Jesus said baptize in the name of the Father,Son,and Holy Ghost,but in the book of Luke it says baptism is to be done in Jesus' name,and that is because the name of the Father,Son,and Holy Ghost,is Jesus.
In the Old Testament God the Father said He would reveal a new name to the Jews and speak to them(Isaiah 52:6),and Jesus sasid He came in the Father's name,manifested the Father's name,and declared the Father's name.
The Bible says the Son inherited the name Jesus from the Father(Hebrews 1:4).
The prophet Agur said what is God's name and what is His Son's name,if you can tell(Proverbs 30:1-4).Since Jesus is fully God and fully man it is the name of the Father and the Son,the man Christ Jesus.
[SUP]3 [/SUP]Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
[SUP]4 [/SUP]Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
[SUP]5 [/SUP]For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
[SUP]6 [/SUP]Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin(Romans 6:3-6).
We have to identify with the man Christ Jesus' burial by being water baptized.
[SUP]18 [/SUP]For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
[SUP]19 [/SUP]By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
[SUP]20 [/SUP]Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.
[SUP]21 [/SUP]The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:
[SUP]22 [/SUP]Who is gone into heaven, and is on the right hand of God; angels and authorities and powers being made subject unto him(1 Peter 3:18-22).
The Bible says baptism saves us,but not washing of the flesh,but a good conscience towards God.
I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service(Romans 12:1).
We have to identify with the man Christ Jesus who died on the cross,was buried in the ground,and arose from the grave,by repenting of our sins,being water baptized,and receiving the Holy Spirit,and we are a living sacrifice unto God.
But some people might not be able to get to baptism,or some people might not fully understand baptism,or might have been withheld from them,or some other circumstance that prevented them from being baptized,that was not their fault,they would be alright for we can only do what we can do.
The thief on the cross when he said,Lord remember me when you come in to your kingdom,was acknowledging that Jesus was the savior,and Jesus said today you shall be with Me in paradise.The theif had no way to be baptized because he was on the cross,so baptism was bypassed and he was saved,but if we do understand baptism there should be no reason not to do it,and it is not a hard thing to do but easily accessible.
I know some people think baptism is not neccessary for salvation,but Jesus said we must be baptized,and the Bible says that baptism does save us,but not the washing of the flesh,but to identify with the man Christ Jesus,because if we are planted together with Him,we shall also rise to newness of life.
[SUP]15 [/SUP]And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.
[SUP]16 [/SUP]He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned(Mark 16:16).
Jesus said we must be baptized to be saved.
βαπτίζω baptízō, bap-tid'-zo; from a derivative of G911; to immerse, submerge; to make whelmed (i.e. fully wet); used only (in the New Testament) of ceremonial ablution, especially (technically) of the ordinance of Christian baptism:—Baptist, baptize, wash.
This is the definition of baptized in this verse Mark 16:16.
[SUP]38 [/SUP]Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
[SUP]39 [/SUP]For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call(Acts 2:38-39).
Peter preached this message on how to be saved,and said baptism is for the remission of sins,which washes your sins away.
In the book of Acts Jews,Gentiles,and Samaritans,were all baptized in Jesus' name.
In the book of Matthew,Jesus said baptize in the name of the Father,Son,and Holy Ghost,but in the book of Luke it says baptism is to be done in Jesus' name,and that is because the name of the Father,Son,and Holy Ghost,is Jesus.
In the Old Testament God the Father said He would reveal a new name to the Jews and speak to them(Isaiah 52:6),and Jesus sasid He came in the Father's name,manifested the Father's name,and declared the Father's name.
The Bible says the Son inherited the name Jesus from the Father(Hebrews 1:4).
The prophet Agur said what is God's name and what is His Son's name,if you can tell(Proverbs 30:1-4).Since Jesus is fully God and fully man it is the name of the Father and the Son,the man Christ Jesus.
[SUP]3 [/SUP]Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
[SUP]4 [/SUP]Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
[SUP]5 [/SUP]For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
[SUP]6 [/SUP]Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin(Romans 6:3-6).
We have to identify with the man Christ Jesus' burial by being water baptized.
[SUP]18 [/SUP]For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
[SUP]19 [/SUP]By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
[SUP]20 [/SUP]Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.
[SUP]21 [/SUP]The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:
[SUP]22 [/SUP]Who is gone into heaven, and is on the right hand of God; angels and authorities and powers being made subject unto him(1 Peter 3:18-22).
The Bible says baptism saves us,but not washing of the flesh,but a good conscience towards God.
I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service(Romans 12:1).
We have to identify with the man Christ Jesus who died on the cross,was buried in the ground,and arose from the grave,by repenting of our sins,being water baptized,and receiving the Holy Spirit,and we are a living sacrifice unto God.
But some people might not be able to get to baptism,or some people might not fully understand baptism,or might have been withheld from them,or some other circumstance that prevented them from being baptized,that was not their fault,they would be alright for we can only do what we can do.
The thief on the cross when he said,Lord remember me when you come in to your kingdom,was acknowledging that Jesus was the savior,and Jesus said today you shall be with Me in paradise.The theif had no way to be baptized because he was on the cross,so baptism was bypassed and he was saved,but if we do understand baptism there should be no reason not to do it,and it is not a hard thing to do but easily accessible.
I know some people think baptism is not neccessary for salvation,but Jesus said we must be baptized,and the Bible says that baptism does save us,but not the washing of the flesh,but to identify with the man Christ Jesus,because if we are planted together with Him,we shall also rise to newness of life.
K
KennethC
Guest
I believe it because God's word says repentance and baptism comes before the Holy Spirit in Acts 2:38 and Acts 19:5-6.
Those verses do not separate baptism from salvation as you think, because what do all the verses you bring up going to have in common? I bet they all will have the word "believe" in them, and if you see closely by the Lord Jesus own words part of a believer in Him is to be baptized as those who believe do what He said (Luke 6:46-47).
Wrong again about the OT as water was always used in sanctification and Hebrews 9:18-20 and 1 Corinthians 10:1-2 shows clearly that baptism was done in the OT.
Once again also take a close look at Acts 19:5-6 as Apostle Paul shows that baptism in the Lord is the immersion in water, as the Holy Spirit was not given tell after that in verse 6 when he laid his hands on them.
What came out of our Lord Jesus side when He was pierced on the cross, blood, water, or both ??? (John 19:34)
Plus what about my other two questions;
Why when Jesus 12 Apostles were baptizing others during His earthly ministry did He not tell them to stop, and why did they including Paul continue to baptize after His death and ascension if it is not needed ? Why did the Lord command it instead ?
Do you think the Lord would command something to be done if it was worthless or was not needed ???
Okay well just on Acts 2:38:
Like I posted.. they were converted first by believing on the Son.. and then they got baptised pretty much straight afterwards.. because back then people were more prepared to get baptised straight away.
The addition of three thousand souls in Acts is.. an increase of membership for the local Jerusalem church of three thousand.
But again.. you know.. John 3:16, Romans 10.. they aren't seperate from this passage in terms of salvation. So you can compare them and they don't contradict.
We have a lady coming to our church who has been coming for 2 or 3 years.. hasn't been baptised yet. Doesn't mean she isn't converted. She is waiting for the right time. She doesn't want to be immersed in cold water during winter and our baptismal pool in the church building is out of order.
But what this is.. is not the same as 'baptism of the Holy Spirit'... that is different. Full immersion, water baptism.. and baptism of the Holy Spirit.. different things.
Matthew 18:20.. you see the Holy Spirit being 'in the midst' of a local church.
Acts.. you see groups of already saved believers being empowered by the Holy Spirit as corporate entities.
This is different from an individual being sealed with the Holy Spirit.
As for Luke 6:46-47
Yeah.. if christians don't obey Jesus they get disciplined and rebuked.. admonished. They haven't built on their faith. This is true.
Your earthly parents would also do this if they were doing their job if you disobey them... and also your earthly parents can't undo the biological connection you have to them. Once born into them.. can't go back and be born again into the family. The child of the parents also can't undo that biological connection.
Sure they can legally do things that in law state the parents are no longer theres.. but they biologically are still the son or daughter of those parents.
So.. someone like Jesus was saying with Nicodemus:
Is born of the water of the womb.. natural birth.. then is born again by the Holy Spirit.
Being born again by the Holy Spirit.. someone is given membership to the Family and Kingdom of God.
This is akin to being a member of a biological family. Can't be born a second time!
Like I posted.. they were converted first by believing on the Son.. and then they got baptised pretty much straight afterwards.. because back then people were more prepared to get baptised straight away.
The addition of three thousand souls in Acts is.. an increase of membership for the local Jerusalem church of three thousand.
But again.. you know.. John 3:16, Romans 10.. they aren't seperate from this passage in terms of salvation. So you can compare them and they don't contradict.
We have a lady coming to our church who has been coming for 2 or 3 years.. hasn't been baptised yet. Doesn't mean she isn't converted. She is waiting for the right time. She doesn't want to be immersed in cold water during winter and our baptismal pool in the church building is out of order.
But what this is.. is not the same as 'baptism of the Holy Spirit'... that is different. Full immersion, water baptism.. and baptism of the Holy Spirit.. different things.
Matthew 18:20.. you see the Holy Spirit being 'in the midst' of a local church.
Acts.. you see groups of already saved believers being empowered by the Holy Spirit as corporate entities.
This is different from an individual being sealed with the Holy Spirit.
As for Luke 6:46-47
Yeah.. if christians don't obey Jesus they get disciplined and rebuked.. admonished. They haven't built on their faith. This is true.
Your earthly parents would also do this if they were doing their job if you disobey them... and also your earthly parents can't undo the biological connection you have to them. Once born into them.. can't go back and be born again into the family. The child of the parents also can't undo that biological connection.
Sure they can legally do things that in law state the parents are no longer theres.. but they biologically are still the son or daughter of those parents.
So.. someone like Jesus was saying with Nicodemus:
Is born of the water of the womb.. natural birth.. then is born again by the Holy Spirit.
Being born again by the Holy Spirit.. someone is given membership to the Family and Kingdom of God.
This is akin to being a member of a biological family. Can't be born a second time!