Both "parousia" and "erchomai" are used for the "coming" of Christ

[Nehemiah6]

There are some who make a big deal out of the Greek word parousia (coming) as applied to the Second Coming of Christ. But they ignore two things: (1) both parousia and erchomai (coming) are used for the Second Coming AS WELL AS (2) for the Resurrection/Rapture. Some mistakenly believe that there is no difference between these two events, but that is easily disproved from Scripture.

Also the Greek word apokalupsis is used once in 1 Cor 1:7. So it is not the words but the contexts which must be taken into account to properly interpret the meaning. Therefore the verses applicably to the Second Coming have been separated from those applicably to the Rapture, and the verses with erchomai have been separated from those with parousia.

THE SECOND COMING OF CHRIST

I. Erchomai (G2064) = coming
Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom. (Mt 16:28)
And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. (Mt 24:30)
Jesus saith unto him, Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you, Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven. (Mt 26:64)
And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory. (Mk 13:26)
And Jesus said, I am: and ye shall see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven. (Mk 14:62)
And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. (Lk 21:27)

II. Parousia (G3952) = coming
And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world? (Mt 24:3)
For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. (Mt 24:27)
But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. (Mt 24:37)
And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. (Mt 24:39)
And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming (2 Thess 2:8)
For we have not followed cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of his majesty. (2 Pet 1:16)

THE RESURRECTION/RAPTURE

I. Erchomai (G2064) = coming
But and if that evil servant shall say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming (Mt 24:48)
Thou oughtest therefore to have put my money to the exchangers, and then at my coming I should have received mine own with usury. (Mt 25:27)
Lest coming suddenly he find you sleeping. (Mk 13:36)
But and if that servant say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; and shall begin to beat the menservants and maidens, and to eat and drink, and to be drunken (Lk 12:45)
Wherefore then gavest not thou my money into the bank, that at my coming I might have required mine own with usury? (Lk 19:23)

II. Parousia (G3952) = coming
But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. (1 Cor 15:23)
For what is our hope, or joy, or crown of rejoicing? Are not even ye in the presence of our Lord Jesus Christ at his coming? (1 Thess 2:19)
To the end he may stablish your hearts unblameable in holiness before God, even our Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints. (1 Thess 3:13)
For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. (1 Thess 4:15)
And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. (1 Thess 5:23
Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him (2 Thess 2:1)
Be patient therefore, brethren, unto the coming of the Lord. Behold, the husbandman waiteth for the precious fruit of the earth, and hath long patience for it, until he receive the early and latter rain. (Jas 5:7)
Be ye also patient; stablish your hearts: for the coming of the Lord draweth nigh. (Jas 5:8)
And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation. (2 Pet 3:4)
And now, little children, abide in him; that, when he shall appear, we may have confidence, and not be ashamed before him at his coming. (1 John 2:28)

III. Apokalupsis (G602)
So that ye come behind in no gift; waiting for the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ (1 Cor 1:7)

 

[kleronomos]

There are some who make a big deal out of the Greek word parousia (coming) as applied to the Second Coming of Christ. But they ignore two things: (1) both parousia and erchomai (coming) are used for the Second Coming AS WELL AS (2) for the Resurrection/Rapture. Some mistakenly believe that there is no difference between these two events, but that is easily disproved from Scripture.

Also the Greek word apokalupsis is used once in 1 Cor 1:7. So it is not the words but the contexts which must be taken into account to properly interpret the meaning. Therefore the verses applicably to the Second Coming have been separated from those applicably to the Rapture, and the verses with erchomai have been separated from those with parousia.

THE SECOND COMING OF CHRIST

I. Erchomai (G2064) = coming
Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom. (Mt 16:28)
And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. (Mt 24:30)
Jesus saith unto him, Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you, Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven. (Mt 26:64)
And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory. (Mk 13:26)
And Jesus said, I am: and ye shall see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven. (Mk 14:62)
And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. (Lk 21:27)

II. Parousia (G3952) = coming
And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world? (Mt 24:3)
For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. (Mt 24:27)
But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. (Mt 24:37)
And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. (Mt 24:39)
And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming (2 Thess 2:8)
For we have not followed cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of his majesty. (2 Pet 1:16)

THE RESURRECTION/RAPTURE

I. Erchomai (G2064) = coming
But and if that evil servant shall say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming (Mt 24:48)
Thou oughtest therefore to have put my money to the exchangers, and then at my coming I should have received mine own with usury. (Mt 25:27)
Lest coming suddenly he find you sleeping. (Mk 13:36)
But and if that servant say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; and shall begin to beat the menservants and maidens, and to eat and drink, and to be drunken (Lk 12:45)
Wherefore then gavest not thou my money into the bank, that at my coming I might have required mine own with usury? (Lk 19:23)

II. Parousia (G3952) = coming
But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. (1 Cor 15:23)
For what is our hope, or joy, or crown of rejoicing? Are not even ye in the presence of our Lord Jesus Christ at his coming? (1 Thess 2:19)
To the end he may stablish your hearts unblameable in holiness before God, even our Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints. (1 Thess 3:13)
For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. (1 Thess 4:15)
And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. (1 Thess 5:23
Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him (2 Thess 2:1)
Be patient therefore, brethren, unto the coming of the Lord. Behold, the husbandman waiteth for the precious fruit of the earth, and hath long patience for it, until he receive the early and latter rain. (Jas 5:7)
Be ye also patient; stablish your hearts: for the coming of the Lord draweth nigh. (Jas 5:8)
And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation. (2 Pet 3:4)
And now, little children, abide in him; that, when he shall appear, we may have confidence, and not be ashamed before him at his coming. (1 John 2:28)

III. Apokalupsis (G602)
So that ye come behind in no gift; waiting for the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ (1 Cor 1:7)

Hello,

I read through all of those and couldn't find one that DEMANDED that there be a Pre Tribulation Rapture as they all would fit Christ coming as KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS to begin the Lords Day. I would think one of them wouldn't have fit, maybe I just missed it.

I have a couple questions I hope you could answer as I would LOVE to believe this is true mostly because of the ramifications of it not being true. It pains me to believe as I do. The thought of all that wasted time. All those souls deceived. All those who will be taken because they just didn't know. If us mere mortals can convince others of it's truth what chance do they have when Satan is doing the speaking?



2 Thessalonians 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto Him...
... Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition


Question one, I do not understand this at all. If there can be no gathering together unto Christ, if the day of that event only come after the bad guy is revealed, then how is there any sort of 'gathering' from any time or any where possible BEFORE those things?

Question two Wouldn't a gathering at any time before this render these very words void?


2 Thessalonians 2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of His coming

Question three What does the Lord do with HIS BRIGHTNESS that destroys just simply BY HIS COMING if He indeed comes before what seems the impossible to do without rendering His own words void?


2 Thessalonians 2:9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,


Question four Does this verse assign who is being spoken of in verses 3 and 8?

Question five Does this not scare the pants OFF EVERY ONE whether you believe it or not KNOWING a bunch of the brethren will perish because of it?

2 Thessalonians 2:10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie

This whole chapter speaks to not gathering before the falling away and not gathering before the wicked Satan the son of perdition is revealed and on how he will be revealed by the BRIGHTNESS of our Christ

Question six is WHAT is the strong delusion, the lie that those who are going to perish believe?


Question seven - will you answer more?

Thank you for laying it out in order that I could see how you arrived at this belief. Maybe it will help us in conversations to come together some how. We can only pray the Holy Spirit step in and open our eyes and ears. And I do.

 

[Nehemiah6]

I read through all of those and couldn't find one that DEMANDED that there be a Pre Tribulation Rapture as they all would fit Christ coming as KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS to begin the Lords Day. I would think one of them wouldn't have fit, maybe I just missed it.

I am going to quote Gaebelien's commentary on 2 Thessalonians 2:2 to clarify the misunderstanding of this passage:

'He begs them “by the coming of the Lord and our gathering together unto Him” not to be disturbed by the rumours these false teachers were circulating, as if the day of the Lord is present. The Authorized Version has the misleading translation, “the day of Christ.” (Equally incorrect is the translation, “the day of the Lord is at hand.” The meaning is “present,” that it had actually come. The same Greek word is also used in Romans 8:38, “things present.”)

There is an important difference between the day of Christ and the day of the Lord. The day of Christ concerns the Church, the saints of God. The day of the Lord concerns the earth-- Israel and the nations. The day of Christ begins when He takes His saints in glory and they are with Him. The day of the Lord will bring, as stated before, the visible manifestation of the Lord from heaven.

The day of Christ comes first and the day of the Lord follows at least seven years later. The following passages speak of the day of Christ, and it will be seen that that day is for God’s people only (1Corinthians 1:8; 2Corinthians 1:14; Philippians 1:6-10; Philippians 2:16).

The day of the Lord does not concern the saints at all; it falls on the world. Before the day of the Lord can come, His saints have to be gathered together unto Him. The promise of 1Thessalonians 4:16-18 needs first to be fulfilled. He uses this hope of being gathered to Christ, when He comes for His saints, as a motive why they should not listen to those who said the day of the Lord is present. He reminds them of the fact that their gathering unto Him had not yet taken place. How, then, could the day of the Lord be present? And this opens the way for still more important teaching.'

I believe this answers most of your questions. There is no clear passage on the Rapture which connects it with either (1) the day of the LORD (which includes the Great Tribulation), nor (2) the Tribulation, nor (3) the reign of the Antichrist.

 

[Runningman]

There are some who make a big deal out of the Greek word parousia (coming) as applied to the Second Coming of Christ. But they ignore two things: (1) both parousia and erchomai (coming) are used for the Second Coming AS WELL AS (2) for the Resurrection/Rapture. Some mistakenly believe that there is no difference between these two events, but that is easily disproved from Scripture.

Also the Greek word apokalupsis is used once in 1 Cor 1:7. So it is not the words but the contexts which must be taken into account to properly interpret the meaning. Therefore the verses applicably to the Second Coming have been separated from those applicably to the Rapture, and the verses with erchomai have been separated from those with parousia.

THE SECOND COMING OF CHRIST

I. Erchomai (G2064) = coming
Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom. (Mt 16:28)
And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. (Mt 24:30)
Jesus saith unto him, Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you, Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven. (Mt 26:64)
And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory. (Mk 13:26)
And Jesus said, I am: and ye shall see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven. (Mk 14:62)
And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. (Lk 21:27)

II. Parousia (G3952) = coming
And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world? (Mt 24:3)
For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. (Mt 24:27)
But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. (Mt 24:37)
And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. (Mt 24:39)
And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming (2 Thess 2:8)
For we have not followed cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of his majesty. (2 Pet 1:16)

THE RESURRECTION/RAPTURE

I. Erchomai (G2064) = coming
But and if that evil servant shall say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming (Mt 24:48)
Thou oughtest therefore to have put my money to the exchangers, and then at my coming I should have received mine own with usury. (Mt 25:27)
Lest coming suddenly he find you sleeping. (Mk 13:36)
But and if that servant say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; and shall begin to beat the menservants and maidens, and to eat and drink, and to be drunken (Lk 12:45)
Wherefore then gavest not thou my money into the bank, that at my coming I might have required mine own with usury? (Lk 19:23)

II. Parousia (G3952) = coming
But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. (1 Cor 15:23)
For what is our hope, or joy, or crown of rejoicing? Are not even ye in the presence of our Lord Jesus Christ at his coming? (1 Thess 2:19)
To the end he may stablish your hearts unblameable in holiness before God, even our Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints. (1 Thess 3:13)
For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. (1 Thess 4:15)
And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. (1 Thess 5:23
Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him (2 Thess 2:1)
Be patient therefore, brethren, unto the coming of the Lord. Behold, the husbandman waiteth for the precious fruit of the earth, and hath long patience for it, until he receive the early and latter rain. (Jas 5:7)
Be ye also patient; stablish your hearts: for the coming of the Lord draweth nigh. (Jas 5:8)
And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation. (2 Pet 3:4)
And now, little children, abide in him; that, when he shall appear, we may have confidence, and not be ashamed before him at his coming. (1 John 2:28)

III. Apokalupsis (G602)
So that ye come behind in no gift; waiting for the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ (1 Cor 1:7)

Matthew 24 is a chronological, play by play, preview of the ends times. The day of the Lord occurs after the return of Christ and after the gathering of Christ’s elect.

A study of Christ return like a thief in the night is a reference to the day of the Lord. See verses of the passage of Matthew 24:36-51 especially.

2 Thessalonians 2 also confirms Christ returns first then the day of the Lord occurs after; it’s all post-tribulational by the way.

 

[kleronomos]

I am going to quote Gaebelien's commentary on 2 Thessalonians 2:2 to clarify the misunderstanding of this passage:

'He begs them “by the coming of the Lord and our gathering together unto Him” not to be disturbed by the rumours these false teachers were circulating, as if the day of the Lord is present. The Authorized Version has the misleading translation, “the day of Christ.” (Equally incorrect is the translation, “the day of the Lord is at hand.” The meaning is “present,” that it had actually come. The same Greek word is also used in Romans 8:38, “things present.”)

There is an important difference between the day of Christ and the day of the Lord. The day of Christ concerns the Church, the saints of God. The day of the Lord concerns the earth-- Israel and the nations. The day of Christ begins when He takes His saints in glory and they are with Him. The day of the Lord will bring, as stated before, the visible manifestation of the Lord from heaven.

The day of Christ comes first and the day of the Lord follows at least seven years later. The following passages speak of the day of Christ, and it will be seen that that day is for God’s people only (1Corinthians 1:8; 2Corinthians 1:14; Philippians 1:6-10; Philippians 2:16).

The day of the Lord does not concern the saints at all; it falls on the world. Before the day of the Lord can come, His saints have to be gathered together unto Him. The promise of 1Thessalonians 4:16-18 needs first to be fulfilled. He uses this hope of being gathered to Christ, when He comes for His saints, as a motive why they should not listen to those who said the day of the Lord is present. He reminds them of the fact that their gathering unto Him had not yet taken place. How, then, could the day of the Lord be present? And this opens the way for still more important teaching.'

I believe this answers most of your questions. There is no clear passage on the Rapture which connects it with either (1) the day of the LORD (which includes the Great Tribulation), nor (2) the Tribulation, nor (3) the reign of the Antichrist.

Hello,

I do not know who 'Gaebelien's' is and I hate to say it, but he affords me no clarity at all. Matter of fact I am more confused than ever. Is there any chance you could find someone who does it in a much simpler fashion and this is coming across as (pick your foreign language) and (I don't speak that foreign language). I don't want to ask any more questions until I get through with these so I will wait to see what you can do. I have no issues with a personal explanation from you though. Thank you I will go look up the passages you gave and see what I can find from those in the mean time.

 

[kleronomos]

I went and got all the passages you said I needed and they brought up MORE questions and I didn't find any of the answers to my previously asked questions But since I had already transferred these verses here I figured I would work through them so you could observe my thought process and inform of when we part ways. Trying to keep it simple. I believe you posted the thread so that we could fully explore it and hopefully come to an agreement on what is written and what is not. I am starting with Thess because it gives me the most problems.


1Thessalonians 4:11 And that ye study to be quiet, and to do your own business, and to work with your own hands, as we commanded you;

12 That ye may walk honestly toward them that are without, and that ye may have lack of nothing.

13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.

The subject, and beginning the new discussion here is about THE DEAD, those who have died and not to be sad like those who have not come to faith. Nothing is specifically mentioned of the church as a WHOLE here, but MEMBERS of the church who are dying. Hopefully they were being good and watching for His coming to meet them to take them to the Father cause as we know, no one COMETH to the Father except through Christ.

14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with Him.

The 'brethren' believe (or they wouldn't be brethren right?) Christ rose so the brethren believe the sleeping RISE also and when Christ returns He will be bringing those who went to sleep/died back with Him. Again, no mention of the 'church' as a whole here, just those who die and 'cometh to the Father'.

15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

NOW the church enters into the conversation as the ALIVE AND REMAINING unto the coming of the Lord and the church still being on earth in flesh bodies DON'T STOP those who have died from going on to be with the Lord. The dead are not waiting around in 'the graves' as the graves opened when Christ rose because not only did Christ defeat the bonds of death but He led the captivity captive (and we know that because HE just told us in the previous couple verses)


16 For the Lord Himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first

OK

17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Christ has brought with HIM THOSE OF THE CHURCH WHO HAVE DIED AND NOW those of the church who have endured to the end, did not take the mark of the beast are alive and remaining are brought together with them. THESE that returned with Him and these gathered to Him HAVE ALL RECEIVED THEIR IMMORTALITY and the second death is never going to be a possibility so they are forever with the Lord.


18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

And so we find comfort knowing that when we die, WE DON'T DIE. We 'pass' through, basically dropping off the flesh body and rising in the spiritual one and knowing that is what happens to all those who BELIEVE in the Lord and Savior The Messiah the Lamb of God. No matter where we are death can't touch us and with Him dwelling in us, no wrath of God will ever touch us. We are delivered from evil by the words of God. Nothing more is needed.



Romans 8:24 For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?

Wouldn't a 'rapture' pre trib be a HOPE SEEN? That would make it impossible to be saved by hope and pre tribulation rapture wouldn't it? And since we are saved by HOPE, pre tribulation rapture is rendered impossible by this verse also.

Romans 8:25 But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it.

Romans 8:26 Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.

Romans 8:27 And He that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because He maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God.

Romans 8:28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.

Romans 8:29 For whom He did foreknow, He also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren.

Christ, then the firstfruits of them that slept, and then the ALIVE AND REMAINING at their return.

Romans 8:30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them He also called: and whom He called, them He also justified: and whom He justified, them He also glorified.

Romans 8:31 What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?

GOD KNOWING that He is for us knows no one can be against us. WHY would He then remove us when the world needs us most? Don't you think GOD wants to watch us work. To watch as we obey and fulfill the prophecies written about us?

Romans 8:32 He that spared not his own Son, but delivered Him up for us all, how shall He not with Him also freely give us all things?

Would not a mention of pre tribulation rapture be best set right here? Why is it never mentioned? I certainly pray I am being easy to follow and not confusing. If it is please let me know and I will come at it from a different angle.

Romans 8:33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.

Romans 8:34 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.


Question eight - when does Christ LEAVE the right hand of God to come get the church. Wouldn't that make void more than a verse or two written about enemies being made footstool and where He would be till then?


Romans 8:35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?

I don't think 'GREAT' changes the way God works

Romans 8:36 As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.


One of those verses that make it almost impossible to go with anything but enduring to the end

Romans 8:37 Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through Him that loved us.

Another

Romans 8:38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,

Romans 8:39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.



1Corinthians 1:8 Who shall also confirm you unto the end, that ye may be blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.

The end of this 'age' is the Day of the Lord.



I will look up the rest later.




Question one, I do not understand this at all. If there can be no gathering together unto Christ, if the day of that event only come after the bad guy is revealed, then how is there any sort of 'gathering' from any time or any where possible BEFORE those things?

Question two Wouldn't a gathering at any time before this render these very words void?

Question three What does the Lord do with HIS BRIGHTNESS that destroys just simply BY HIS COMING if He indeed comes before what seems the impossible to do without rendering His own words void?

Question four Does this verse assign who is being spoken of in verses 3 and 8?

Question five Does this not scare the pants OFF EVERY ONE whether you believe it or not KNOWING a bunch of the brethren will perish because of it?

Question six is WHAT is the strong delusion, the lie that those who are going to perish believe?

Question seven - will you answer more?

QUESTION eight - when does Christ LEAVE the right hand of God to come get the church. Wouldn't that make void more than a verse or two written about enemies being made footstool and where He would be till then?


I am going to call it a night soon so I will continue tomorrow

 

[Nehemiah6]

Matthew 24 is a chronological, play by play, preview of the ends times. The day of the Lord occurs after the return of Christ and after the gathering of Christ’s elect.

This gathering of these "elect" does NOT correspond to the Resurrection/Rapture of the Church in any way, shape, or form. The fact that the Resurrection is not even mentioned in Matthew 24 should suffice. And Christ does not send out angels to gather the saints at the Rapture. Rather He comes personally and summons them personally. See 1 Thessalonians 4.

 

[ewq1938]

This gathering of these "elect" does NOT correspond to the Resurrection/Rapture of the Church in any way, shape, or form. The fact that the Resurrection is not even mentioned in Matthew 24 should suffice.

Nope. Chp 24 covers time before the Great Tribulation and during it and after it. Christ never mentioned the resurrection but the resurrection does take pace somewhere in that timeline. Since the resurrection is just before the rapture, and the rapture is the gathering of the saints, we know the rapture is being mentioned in Matthew 24: 31 which would be the right timeframe for the resurrection.

 

[Nehemiah6]

...but the resurrection does take pace somewhere in that timeline.

That's guesswork. The claim was made that the gathering of the elect in Matthew 24 = the Rapture. But since the Resurrection/Rapture is one event (for all practical purposes) the absence of the Resurrection confirms that that is definitely not the Rapture. It is the gathering of the believing Jewish remnant to Israel after the Second Coming of Christ.

 

[ewq1938]

That's guesswork. The claim was made that the gathering of the elect in Matthew 24 = the Rapture. But since the Resurrection/Rapture is one event (for all practical purposes) the absence of the Resurrection confirms that that is definitely not the Rapture. It is the gathering of the believing Jewish remnant to Israel after the Second Coming of Christ.

It's not guesswork. The resurrection has to take place within the timeframe of chp 24 since it covers time before the Great Tribulation where you think it happens, covers the Great Tribulation, and covers events after the Great Tribulation where the resurrection and rapture take place.

There's only one gathering. Believing Jews are not separated from believing gentiles. All believers are gathered at the same time and that's after the Great Tribulation according to Christ.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Question one, I do not understand this at all. If there can be no gathering together unto Christ, if the day of that event only come after the bad guy is revealed, then how is

The text does not convey that idea ^ .




It only seems to convey such an idea if one "cuts out" the text and content (of the False Claimants') of verse 2, as you did in your mis-quoting of the passage in your Post #2 (as many people do, also coming to the same incorrect conclusion you have come to).



Welcome to CC, kleronomos... hope to see you around the boards. = )

 

[kleronomos]

This gathering of these "elect" does NOT correspond to the Resurrection/Rapture of the Church in any way, shape, or form. The fact that the Resurrection is not even mentioned in Matthew 24 should suffice. And Christ does not send out angels to gather the saints at the Rapture. Rather He comes personally and summons them personally. See 1 Thessalonians 4.

John 14:1 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.

2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.



1Thessalonians 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.

1Thessalonians 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with Him.

 

[JAPOV]

I just wish God would hurry up... I'M READY!

 

[kleronomos]

The text does not convey that idea ^ .




It only seems to convey such an idea if one "cuts out" the text and content (of the False Claimants') of verse 2, as you did in your mis-quoting of the passage in your Post #2 (as many people do, also coming to the same incorrect conclusion you have come to).



Welcome to CC, kleronomos... hope to see you around the boards. = )

Thank you for the welcome. I did not realize that taking verse 2 out of the mix changed anything as it only describes the ways in which the deception could come about, so I will re post it, in the Greek, post what I believe the scripture it is speaking to to the best of my ability. I think you will understand once I have posted it why I didn't believe it changed the message and why I DO BELIEVE THE TEXT DOES CONVEY THAT IDEA.

The 2nd letter written to the Thes Church was because the 1st letter had started causing some confusion already and so Paul wanted to be sure to clear it up. SEEMS to still be causing confusion 2000 years later doesn't it? How insane is that? Only in Gods words could such a miracle take place. What I find interesting is that AFTER stating the gathering came AFTER and not BEFORE, and these letters are believed to be some of the first why Paul never again spoke of it.

Just went to the Greek and copied it from there if it looks funny just wanted to let you know why.


1 We implore now you brothers by the coming of the Lord of us Jesus Christ and our gathering together unto Him

This is the letter that 'as if by us' would be speaking to and this is the section on 'gathering'. Let us check out WHEN it takes place and WHO IS WHERE when it does.

1Thessalonians 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.

That the DEAD is the subject here I don't believe is in dispute by anyone. Shocked as I would be to hear otherwise, If you believe those who have died/the DEAD are not the dead but are in fact the CHURCH, please let me know.

1Thessalonians 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with Him.

I am going to re state so as to be perfectly clear and not assume anything. The one who have died and have gone on to be with the Lord are still the subject and it is that same group that is returning with Him. He is BRINGING those AND NOT THE CHURCH when He comes back for the DAY OF VENGEANCE as KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS.

1Thessalonians 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

Paul is ADDRESSING the 'church' who is the alive and remaining and explaining to the Church that their being alive has not prevented those who have died from going on to be with the Lord and those who have died are coming with Him when He returns.

Acts 1:6 When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel? 7 And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power. 8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth. 9 And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight. 10 And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel; 11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

1 Thessalonians 4:16 For the Lord Himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first

A resurrection

1Thessalonians 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

A transfiguration AND THE GATHERING of the alive and remaining/the Church and to meet those who are returning with Christ, the sleep/dead/the ones not to be ignorant of

Back to

2 Thess
2 for not quickly to be shaken you in mind nor to be troubled
neither by spirit nor by word nor by letter as if by us
as that is present the day of the Lord

don't let a spirit or what someone says or the 1 Thess letter
trouble you, or shake up you mind
that present is the day of the Lord,

BECAUSE it isn't. It can't be and we are about to find out why. If anyone tries to tell you different, don't let them.


3 No one you should deceive in not one way because {it is} if not {until} shall have come the apostasy first and shall have been revealed the man of lawlessness the son of destruction

4 the {one} opposing and exalting himself above every so-called god or object of worship so as for him in the temple of God to sit down setting forth he himself that is God

5 Not do you remember that yet being with you these things I was saying to you?

No matter what the first letter leads you to believe HERE IS GODS TRUTH ABOUT THE MATTER

6 And now that which is restraining you know for to be revealed him in his time

7 The for mystery already is working of lawlessness only {there is} the {one} restraining {it} at present until out of {the} midst he might be {gone}

8 And then will be revealed the lawless {one} whom the Lord Jesus will slay with the breath of the mouth of Him and will annul by the appearing of the coming of Him

9 whose is coming according to {the} working of Satan in every power and in signs and in wonders of falsehood

10 and in every deceit of wickedness unto those perishing in return for which the love of the truth not they received in order for to be saved them.

LOVE THE TRUTH OR PERISH.

11 And because of this will send God a working of delusion for to believe them what {is} false

12 in order that should be judged all those not having believed the truth but having delighted in unrighteousness

13 We however ought to give thanks to God always concerning you brothers beloved by {the} Lord that has chosen you God from {the} beginning unto salvation in {the}sanctification of {the} Spirit and {by} faith of {the} truth

14 to this also He called you through the gospel of us to {the} obtaining of {the} glory of the Lord

15 So then brothers stand firm and hold fast to the traditions that you were taught whether by word or by letter from us

IN CASE THAT 'AS IF BY US' THREW SOME OFF AS TO WHAT WAS REALLY BEING TAUGHT

16 Himself now the Lord of us Jesus Christ and God the Father of us the {One} having loved us and having given {us} comfort eternal and hope good by grace

17 may He encourage your hearts and may He strengthen {them} in every work and word good


This clears up why I did not believe I was MIS quoting or cutting out any relevant parts

 

[Nehemiah6]

I read through all of those and couldn't find one that DEMANDED that there be a Pre Tribulation Rapture as they all would fit Christ coming as KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS to begin the Lords Day. I would think one of them wouldn't have fit, maybe I just missed it.

I will address your questions one at a time:

I have a couple questions I hope you could answer as I would LOVE to believe this is true mostly because of the ramifications of it not being true. It pains me to believe as I do. The thought of all that wasted time. All those souls deceived. All those who will be taken because they just didn't know. If us mere mortals can convince others of it's truth what chance do they have when Satan is doing the speaking?

I am not sure exactly what you are saying here. “Taken” where? Satan speaking to whom?

2 Thessalonians 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto Him...
... Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition
Question one, I do not understand this at all. If there can be no gathering together unto Christ, if the day of that event only come after the bad guy is revealed, then how is there any sort of 'gathering' from any time or any where possible BEFORE those things?

I already provided Gaebelein’s commentary to address this. What was Paul saying? The day of the LORD (divine judgment) cannot come BEFORE the Resurrection/Rapture. “The day of Christ” in the KJV is incorrect.

Question two Wouldn't a gathering at any time before this render these very words void?

Already answered above.

2 Thessalonians 2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of His coming
Question three What does the Lord do with HIS BRIGHTNESS that destroys just simply BY HIS COMING if He indeed comes before what seems the impossible to do without rendering His own words void?

This pertains to the Second Coming of Christ. See 2 Thessalonians 1:6-10. This will occur at least seven years after the Rapture.

2 Thessalonians 2:9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
Question four Does this verse assign who is being spoken of in verses 3 and 8?

Yes. The entire passage from verse 1 to verse 12 is about the revelation and reign of the Antichrist.

Question five Does this not scare the pants OFF EVERY ONE whether you believe it or not KNOWING a bunch of the brethren will perish because of it?
2 Thessalonians 2:10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie
This whole chapter speaks to not gathering before the falling away and not gathering before the wicked Satan the son of perdition is revealed and on how he will be revealed by the BRIGHTNESS of our Christ

This passage only applies to the unbelieving and the ungodly, because “they received not the love of the truth” and therefore were not saved.

Question six is WHAT is the strong delusion, the lie that those who are going to perish believe?

The strong delusion is the deception that the Antichrist is Christ and God. This is Satanic delusion which will lead to the worship of Satan and the Antichrist, the Mark of the Beast, and eternal damnation.

Question seven - will you answer more?

Sure. But hopefully this clarifies the meaning of that passage.

 

[kleronomos]

I already provided Gaebelein’s commentary to address this. What was Paul saying? The day of the LORD (divine judgment) cannot come BEFORE the Resurrection/Rapture. “The day of Christ” in the KJV is incorrect.

I was hoping to receive some explanations on WHY and HOW you reached the conclusions you did. I believe I informed you I did not understand the Gaebeliens commentary and was hoping for you to expound upon it with your own personal thoughts and opinions. Was the post intended merely as a statement of your beliefs please let me know and I will move on.
If you are open to discussion, please explain what makes it possible for anyone be gathered PREVIOUS to that event, when IT IS WRITTEN so explicitly and categorically, there will not be a gathering before?

A gathering before would render this verse null and void, correct? It could not remain a TRUTH if there is a gathering at anytime or by anyone before what was stated. Whether addressing 'a gathering' with a different name or place or people does not change the fact of being in direct opposition to what is stated as truth. Either what is written is TRUTH or it is not.
So, how can it take place?

Let no man deceive you by any means for that day shall not come WHAT DAY?
The day of our gathering together unto Him when He returns for the DAY of vengeance.

Would it be fair to say that IF someone tries to convince you there is a gathering before that day, that they are trying to deceive you?


Though He didn't DIRECTLY speak to this day of vengeance He would be returning for, He certainly did CONFIRM it when the Isaiah scroll was handed to Him to read in the temple and He read up to

Isaiah 61:1 The Spirit of the Lord GOD is upon me; because the LORD hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound;

Isaiah 61:2 To proclaim the acceptable year of the LORD,

Luke 4:20 And he closed the book, and he gave it again to the minister, and sat down. And the eyes of all them that were in the synagogue were fastened on him 21 And he began to say unto them, This day is this scripture fulfilled in your ears.
22 And all bare him witness, and wondered at the gracious words which proceeded out of his mouth. And they said, Is not this Joseph's son?

WHAT was the other 1/2 of the Scripture followed the part that was fulfilled that day?
and the day of vengeance of our God to comfort all that mourn 3 To appoint unto them that mourn in Zion, to give unto them beauty for ashes, the oil of joy for mourning, the garment of praise for the spirit of heaviness; that they might be called trees of righteousness, the planting of the LORD, that He might be glorified. 4 And they shall build the old wastes, they shall raise up the former desolations, and they shall repair the waste cities, the desolations of many generations.

What is written in the letter right BEFORE this gathering that takes place after Satan has been revealed and destroyed to see if it is even a good idea to think about getting out of tribulation (fallen angels)

2 Thessalonians 1:4 So that we ourselves glory in you in the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that ye endure 5 Which is a manifest token of the righteous judgment of God, that ye may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which ye also suffer 6 Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you

Does anyone take notice of what is written there? PATIENCE AND FAITH IN ALL YOUR PERSECUTIONSS AND TRIBULATIONS

7 And to you who are troubled REST WITH US when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with His mighty angels
WHERE HAS THE PRE TRIB RAPTURE GONE?

8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ

9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of His power

10 When He shall come to be glorified in His saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day

11 Wherefore also we pray always for you, that our God would count you worthy of this calling,
and fulfil all the good pleasure of His goodness, and the work of faith with power

12 That the name of our Lord Jesus Christ may be glorified in you, and ye in Him, according to the grace of our God and the Lord Jesus Christ.

It takes more than a leap of faith to go onto the next part and try and make it say there is another gathering as I see it written. Again, if you would like to forego any discussion please let me know.

 

[Nehemiah6]

A gathering before would render this verse null and void, correct?

Unless you are prepared to take the totality of all the verses pertaining to the Rapture, you will not understand why the gathering of the saints to Christ precedes the revelation of the Antichrist, and the day of the LORD (which follows). So it is up to you to bring all the Rapture passages together in order to properly understand what was said in 2 Thessalonians.

 

[ewq1938]

Unless you are prepared to take the totality of all the verses pertaining to the Rapture, you will not understand why the gathering of the saints to Christ precedes the revelation of the Antichrist

Paul said the gathering would not happen until after the revealing of the man of sin, not before that revealing.

2Th 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2Th 2:2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;


So, before the gathering together unto Christ happens (the rapture) the man of sin must be revealed first which proves pre-trib to be wrong.

 

[JAPOV]

I WISH the antichrist would show his ugly face!
I'D WHOOP HIS SILLY BUTT!

 

[kleronomos]

Unless you are prepared to take the totality of all the verses pertaining to the Rapture, you will not understand why the gathering of the saints to Christ precedes the revelation of the Antichrist, and the day of the LORD (which follows). So it is up to you to bring all the Rapture passages together in order to properly understand what was said in 2 Thessalonians.

And if you bring together all the verses that pre tribulation rapture makes void and causes conflict with and you compare that with getting rid of the whole idea of it and NOTHING is rendered void and NOTHING is in conflict that should be the indicator.

!ST off it is dividing something that CHRIST'S DEATH brought together. BACK to circumcised and uncircumcised. And CHRIST who we were once told would be a the right hand of GOD until, well that turns into a lie doesn't it? Also
by removing the gentiles from the 'chosen people' they are being removed from the promises. Also removing them from being partakers and joint heirs .Also are putting back up the wall that separated them that was taken down by the Lord and Savior. The church is now boasting of being whisked away to safety while the Jews PAY by being 'left behind'. Pay for being blinded so the gentiles could be brought in. JUST? WHERE? No longer is God 'not a respecter of persons' because for ONE single generation and one alone He isn't going to PROVE THEM. Used to be if you were a son of God you were chastised, but not any more, at least NOT FOR THAT GENERATION. Used to be we were perfected by suffering. No longer truth apparently at least not for that generation. Used to be God would RECOMPENSE those who afflicted. BUT NOT THAT GENERATION. Used to be we had to endure to the end to receive the promises BUT NOT THAT GENERATION. The list goes on and on and on and on of all the ways that delusion VOIDS our GODS words without a single thought. Used to be He was the same ALWAYS. NO longer can that be called truth. No longer JUST for everyone. Used to be that Israel was His inheritance. Not no more. Christ is not to be the example to follower after. Paul is not to be an example either. Used to be being delivered was something that took place right here on earth. Not no more, at least not for that generation. Death and judgment to every man no longer a truth. I read what the churches were told before they DISAPPEARED and you think GOD IS GOING TO RAPTURE THEM TO HEAVEN. They were going to lose everything a minute before. He was going to spew them out of HIS mouth. THAT IS SAYING that teaching GOD HATES are being taken straight to heaven for IMMORTALITY? WELL apparently only parts cause some of the body has to remain behind. Like the Church that was approved of. THAT one has to stay?

For the majority of people thinking 'rapture', they are thinking ESCAPE. They are afraid of the GREAT tribulation. WATCH OUT our you are going to be left behind. Woe to you!!! Woe to me?? What for? I BELEIVE and HAVE FAITH in God. If anything happens to me during the tribulation, you can bet it is voluntary. For those who have argued it, now they veer away from that stance and go onto the wedding that incidentally doesn't take place until AFTER the millennium after all evil has gone into the lake of fire so going to have to find a new excuse for that too. So there is no reason to go. For a while there is was so they could 'come back' but once they figured out it wasn't the 'church' who was returning at all but those who had died to be gathered with the church well now I don't even know what todays reason is for being raptured

Revelation 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

1169. deilos
Strong's Concordance
deilos: cowardly, fearful
Original Word: δειλός, ή, όν
Part of Speech: Adjective
Transliteration: deilos
Phonetic Spelling: (di-los')
Definition: cowardly, fearful
Usage: cowardly, timid, fearful.
HELPS Word-studies
1169 deilós (an adjective derived from deidō, "fear-driven") – properly, dreadful, describing a person who loses their "moral gumption (fortitude)" that is needed to follow the Lord.

1169 /deilós ("fearful of losses") refers to an excessive fear (dread) of "losing," causing someone to be fainthearted (cowardly) – hence, to fall short in following Christ as Lord.

[1169 /deilós is always used negatively in the NT and stands in contrast to the positive fear which can be expressed by 5401 /phóbos ("fear," see Phil 2:12).]

Mark 4:37 And there arose a great storm of wind, and the waves beat into the ship, so that it was now full.
38 And he was in the hinder part of the ship, asleep on a pillow: and they awake him, and say unto him, Master, carest thou not that we perish?
39 And he arose, and rebuked the wind, and said unto the sea, Peace, be still. And the wind ceased, and there was a great calm.
40 And he said unto them, Why are ye so fearful? how is it that ye have no faith?
41 And they feared exceedingly, and said one to another, What manner of man is this, that even the wind and the sea obey him?