Busted: "Sinless" Perfectionists Debunked

[Sirk]

The yo mama jokes are on the word bro

He tried telling a joke awhile back. Let's just say that the sense of humor line looked to long so he opted for the stick in the mud line. Lol

 

[KennethC]

Where are in agreement on these points. Not sure why you think I disagree here (As I believe I stated clearly that sin can be forgiven thru confessing it and forsaking it).



Well, if a believer has backslidden in the faith and they are living in a life of sin that we can see, then they are proving that they are not saved. So it is not wrong to correct them and say they need to repent and be forgiven. But yes, I agree that love and using loving words is the best tactic than an all out approach of telling them that they are a sinner in need of repentance. For we are to be as wise as serpents and innocent as doves.

Because you said in the previous post that lying, murder, and hate will always lead to spiritual death and the lake of fire.
Here is your statement;

"But just to be clear (So as to not mislead our audience), sins such as lying, murdering, and hating are always bad and will always lead unto spiritual death into the Lake of Fire. Those types of sins will always cause one to not inherit the Kingdom of God if they are not confessed and forsaken."


This is why I said be careful how you word things because in the above statement you said those sins will always lead to the spiritual death in the lake of fire. Which can be taken by others as not being forgivable, but I showed you instances where those in the bible were guilty of both hate and murder yet they were still forgiven....

 

[Rosesrock]

I do not believe you and or anyone else here as provided a proper explanation on the following verses that I have provided. I need a word by word play of what you think those verses say. If not, it just makes it appear like you are ignoring them (if you cannot explain them).



Which is not taught in the Bible. You have to prove your case with the Scriptures and then be prepared to explain the context when I show it to you.



I am not jealous of your belief in the slightest way. Actually, I see the OSAS belief as a doctrine immorality and as pure evil. So I am grieved and saddened that you hold to such a belief and hope you come to the knowledge of the truth of what God's Word really says on this matter.



Never say never. God has a way of changing people. For I had once argued that there was no such thing as God, but the Lord had other plans for me and what I had once thought.

Actually this gives me more peace than you'll ever know.
I praise my father for his protection.
and that's where you're wrong, I don't have to prove my case to you or anyone for validation or to be right. God is my standard. You are Not. Have a blessed day.

 

[Jason0047]

Because you said in the previous post that lying, murder, and hate will always lead to spiritual death and the lake of fire.
Here is your statement;

"But just to be clear (So as to not mislead our audience), sins such as lying, murdering, and hating are always bad and will always lead unto spiritual death into the Lake of Fire. Those types of sins will always cause one to not inherit the Kingdom of God if they are not confessed and forsaken."


This is why I said be careful how you word things because in the above statement you said those sins will always lead to the spiritual death in the lake of fire. Which can be taken by others as not being forgivable, but I showed you instances where those in the bible were guilty of both hate and murder yet they were still forgiven....

And here it the context of what I said (in that post)....

"But just to be clear (So as to not mislead our audience), sins such as lying, murdering, and hating are always bad and will always lead unto spiritual death into the Lake of Fire. Those types of sins will always cause one to not inherit the Kingdom of God if they are not confessed and forsaken."​

 

[KennethC]

Just so. The thread was to point out chastisement of the Lord, how He works with His children, highlighting teaching in the book of Hebrews and many other Bible verses, strong proof that puts the lie to a few senseless claims people make around here. But the situation always devolves to a repetition of the same errors, refuting firm promises of scripture, nothing really left but these verses and maybe some "Yo mama" jokes,

Eternal Security Scripture Verses
​

These are all good scriptures however the problem is with this eternal security doctrine is they pull this scriptures out of the bible and use them by themselves to prove their stance, and in turn avoid all of these;

200 Scriptures That Refute Eternal Security

 

[KennethC]

And here it the context of what I said (in that post)....

"But just to be clear (So as to not mislead our audience), sins such as lying, murdering, and hating are always bad and will always lead unto spiritual death into the Lake of Fire. Those types of sins will always cause one to not inherit the Kingdom of God if they are not confessed and forsaken."​

I know I was just speaking on the wording with the mention of always in the first part, because some on here have an issue with only reading part of what a person posts. I have learned this real quick and they still do it as there was two of them just yesterday they continued to post and say things I never said and showed in their responses they only read part of what I said.

One of which I even had to put on ignore because multiple times he not just made statements of false accusations against me, but more then once said; "you (Kenneth) have claimed."

When I never claimed anything he had said.............

 

[Jason0047]

I know I was just speaking on the wording with the mention of always in the first part, because some on here have an issue with only reading part of what a person posts. I have learned this real quick and they still do it as there was two of them just yesterday they continued to post and say things I never said and showed in their responses they only read part of what I said.

One of which I even had to put on ignore because multiple times he not just made statements of false accusations against me, but more then once said; "you (Kenneth) have claimed."

When I never claimed anything he had said.............

Yes, people do this here unfortunately. But we must pray and love them despite their wrong actions (as you know).

For clarification for the rest of our audience: The word "always" is in context to if they do not confess or forsake those types of sins.

 

[peacefulbeliever]

These are all good scriptures however the problem is with this eternal security doctrine is they pull this scriptures out of the bible and use them by themselves to prove their stance, and in turn avoid all of these;

200 Scriptures That Refute Eternal Security

Well . . . see this creates a problem -

We have scriptures concerning eternal security - I'll just paraphrase a few - we are already seated in heavenly places; we are sealed with the holy Spirit until the day of redemption; unto an inheritance that can never perish, spoil or fade . . reserved in heaven for you . . . (I haven't really seen any verses that make these verses void)

Now, we have verses that "seem to say" we can lose our salvation but I do believe that most of these scriptures have to do with a Christian's walk - what they do while here on earth whether good or bad . . . . and they will not "inherit" the kingdom of heaven - Does that actually say that they will lose their salvation or maybe does it have something to do with "inheriting" something in the kingdom of heaven (or kingdom of God) . . such as rewards?

So. . . Here's the problem - There can only be ONE truth . . . NOT contradictions - seems we are at a stand still and will remain at a stand still.

 

[Jason0047]

Actually this gives me more peace than you'll ever know.
I praise my father for his protection.
and that's where you're wrong, I don't have to prove my case to you or anyone for validation or to be right. God is my standard. You are Not. Have a blessed day.

Not true. The Bible says we are to train others in righteousness and teach them doctrine by the Word of God (See 2 Timothy 3:16).

 

[Jason0047]

Well . . . see this creates a problem -

We have scriptures concerning eternal security - I'll just paraphrase a few - we are already seated in heavenly places; we are sealed with the holy Spirit until the day of redemption; unto an inheritance that can never perish, spoil or fade . . reserved in heaven for you . . . (I haven't really seen any verses that make these verses void)

Now, we have verses that "seem to say" we can lose our salvation but I do believe that most of these scriptures have to do with a Christian's walk - what they do while here on earth whether good or bad . . . . and they will not "inherit" the kingdom of heaven - Does that actually say that they will lose their salvation or maybe does it have something to do with "inheriting" something in the kingdom of heaven (or kingdom of God) . . such as rewards?

So. . . Here's the problem - There can only be ONE truth . . . NOT contradictions - seems we are at a stand still and will remain at a stand still.

Let's suppose your right, then all your efforts in trying to convince us would not really ultimately matter because anyone who believes in Jesus is saved no matter what. But if our plain straight forward reading on Scripture is true, and you are wrong, then you are placing at risk your very soul in a belief that you simply find comfortable. So what we do here matters. Whereas, in your belief system, any effort you do here does not really have all that much weight unless of course you believe all Anti-OSAS propopents (who teach holiness) are not saved.

But you actually have to take a step back and ask yourself. When did God ever condone a person's evil or sin in the Bible? See, that is what you want me to believe (of which I am strongly against). For that is the end goal of where OSAS leads to. Immorality. For when you take away any real consequences in doing what is good, then you are making room for a license to sin to take place.

 

[Budman]

Jesus took all my sins and removed them as far as the east is from the west. I shall never come into condemnation. As far as God is concerned, I am already seated in heaven. The seal of the Holy Spirit can never be removed. I have life eternal, and I shall never be cast out.

God promised.

I believe Him.

 

[peacefulbeliever]

Let's suppose your right, then all your efforts in trying to convince us would not really ultimately matter because anyone who believes in Jesus is saved no matter what. But if our plain straight forward reading on Scripture is true, and you are wrong, then you are placing at risk your very soul in a belief that you simply find comfortable. So what we do here matters. Whereas, in your belief system, any effort you do here does not really have all that much weight unless of course you believe all Anti-OSAS propopents (who teach holiness) are not saved.

I am not "trying to convince" you about anything. Be it unto you as you believe - for I know whom I have believed and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which has been committed unto me against that day. I want to set the record straight - I HAVE NEVER SAID YOU WERE NOT SAVED.

But you actually have to take a step back and ask yourself. When did God ever condone a person's evil or sin in the Bible? See, that is what you want me to believe (of which I am strongly against). For that is the end goal of where OSAS leads to. Immorality. For when you take away any real consequences in doing what is good, then you are making room for a license to sin to take place.

Now - where have I said that God condones sin? I believe in eternal security - Am I immoral? You can't say yes one way or the other for you do not really know me - I tell you that I am not immoral - I sin - Do I sin 24/7? Nope . . . I may go a whole day without sinning but I can't even say that for sure. All through the day and at the end of the day - I pray for forgiveness of any fault that I may have done. I have never said that there are no consequences for doing that which is not the best for us . . . that consequence is not losing our salvation . . . that consequence is losing out on our rewards in the Eternal Kingdom. Just as it says in 1 Cor. 3 . . . .

 

[KennethC]

Well . . . see this creates a problem -

We have scriptures concerning eternal security - I'll just paraphrase a few - we are already seated in heavenly places; we are sealed with the holy Spirit until the day of redemption; unto an inheritance that can never perish, spoil or fade . . reserved in heaven for you . . . (I haven't really seen any verses that make these verses void)

Now, we have verses that "seem to say" we can lose our salvation but I do believe that most of these scriptures have to do with a Christian's walk - what they do while here on earth whether good or bad . . . . and they will not "inherit" the kingdom of heaven - Does that actually say that they will lose their salvation or maybe does it have something to do with "inheriting" something in the kingdom of heaven (or kingdom of God) . . such as rewards?

So. . . Here's the problem - There can only be ONE truth . . . NOT contradictions - seems we are at a stand still and will remain at a stand still.

Well then you are seeing how the context applies to those verses, because a person is only sealed by the Holy Spirit when they continue in the faith of Jesus Christ. If they grieve the Holy Spirit (Ephesians 4:30) and return to perdition (Hebrews 10:39) then will not inherit the kingdom of heaven.

The problem with using Ephesians 4:30 about the sealing of the Holy Spirit, is that you then do not continue to read on in Ephesians 5 where Apostle Paul says if you continue to show hatred, bitterness, fornicate, or any other uncleanness which is sinful behavior you will not inherit the kingdom of Christ and God. You can not take Ephesians 4:30 without Ephesians 4:31-32 and Ephesians 5:1-6, as those who continue to do those unclean sinful acts and believe they still have salvation are deceived.

The scripture in Ephesians 2:6 about being set in heavenly places with the Lord is a mental placement based on us keeping the faith, as once again scriptures can not stand out on their own as you have to read along in chapters 3 and 4 as well to get the full context. As Paul continues to say you must keep the unity with the Holy Spirit (Ephesians 4:3) and no longer walk in those sinful ways in which we previously walked in. (Ephesians 4:17-19)

Apostle Paul says those who continue to walk as they previously walked before coming to Christ are blinded, and living in ignorance to the truth and are still alienated/separated from life of God. Then goes on to say you have not learned Christ, for living in a sinful nature of the flesh is not walking in the Truth.

So you see you are doing exactly what I mentioned before that is taught in the osas doctrine, and that is picking out verses and trying to have them stand alone. We can not do that in being lead in the truth, and Apostle Paul almost always follows the teachings of eternal life/salvation with strict warnings to believers !!!

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Once again I will ask: Do you believe if a person repents/confesses on their death bed they will be forgiven ???

Thief on the cross was on his deathbed, He repented. Was he forgiven?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

These are all good scriptures however the problem is with this eternal security doctrine is they pull this scriptures out of the bible and use them by themselves to prove their stance, and in turn avoid all of these;

200 Scriptures That Refute Eternal Security

On the contrary, it is you who pull all kinds of verses out of context in a feeble attempt to prove the GRACE of God, the LOVE of God, the FORGIVENESS of god, the PATIENCE of God, and the SALVATION of GOD, will fail. and thus salvation can be lost.

 

[atwhatcost]

Although i think this thread about sinless perfection, i think we agree there's no such thing so this discuss has actually shifted and is addressed in probably 1000 other threads.

So, does that mean you'll accept my pillow for a good nap?

I have. Did anything happen while I was sleeping? lol

 

[eternally-gratefull]

We are justified (perfect tense) forever on Christ.

Our sanctification is an ongoing process.

God has perfected FOREVER those he is sanctifying (ongoing) (heb 10: 14)

God is not stupid, He does not save one HE KNOWS will continue to live in sin, he does not save a person HE KNOWS will one day revert back to his true faith and deny God, He will not save someone he KNOWS has faith in anything other than him (meaning they will eventually return to sin, return to legalism, return to what ever religion they truly have faith in)

face it, Legalists like Jason and KC here do not believe in an omniscient, Omnipotent, all powerful God. They have humanised God and made their own God to fit their own belief system, and have perverted the word of God to make it appear that their man made God is the God of the bible.

 

[KennethC]

Thief on the cross was on his deathbed, He repented. Was he forgiven?

On the contrary, it is you who pull all kinds of verses out of context in a feeble attempt to prove the GRACE of God, the LOVE of God, the FORGIVENESS of god, the PATIENCE of God, and the SALVATION of GOD, will fail. and thus salvation can be lost.

Once again you come in on the middle of a discussion and show you did not even take the time to read what I or others have written by these two posts.

For I posed that question to Jason to see if he believed a last minute confession/repentance will have a person be saved unto eternal life. This does not give a believer free will to sin when they no the truth on how they are suppose to walk, but does show a person who has lived their whole life in enmity to God can still be saved on their death bed. However we are told not to hold off on walking properly and on confessing/repenting of sins because we are not guaranteed tomorrow, and if you die without repenting then salvation will not be yours at judgment.

Then the link I posted shows over 200 scriptures from the bible that refutes eternal security, and that is an awful lot to say they have been taking out of context by you. I have talked to many supporters of that doctrine and usually the result is the same, and that is pulling one scripture out of a passage and trying to make it stand alone. Just like what was done with Ephesians 4:30, as you can not have that scripture stand alone when the rest of chapter 4 and chapter 5 have to be taken into account as well.

As Apostle Paul states you are sealed by the Holy Spirit tell the day of redemption, unless as he goes on to say if you continue in lewdness sinful behavior and as previously mentioned break that unity with the Spirit (Ephesians 4:3).

 

[KennethC]

We are justified (perfect tense) forever on Christ.

Our sanctification is an ongoing process.

God has perfected FOREVER those he is sanctifying (ongoing) (heb 10: 14)

God is not stupid, He does not save one HE KNOWS will continue to live in sin, he does not save a person HE KNOWS will one day revert back to his true faith and deny God, He will not save someone he KNOWS has faith in anything other than him (meaning they will eventually return to sin, return to legalism, return to what ever religion they truly have faith in)

face it, Legalists like Jason and KC here do not believe in an omniscient, Omnipotent, all powerful God. They have humanised God and made their own God to fit their own belief system, and have perverted the word of God to make it appear that their man made God is the God of the bible.

False allegations as always as legalists believe all 613 Mosaic written ordinances still apply.......

I do not believe nor teach that and I don't believe Jason does either, so I would once again politely ask you to stop bearing false witness on me.

If you want to believe that there is no standards under the new covenant that believers are to keep, then you have just erased over half of the NT because you have then done away with the books from Paul, James, and John.

Here once again is what the bible says believers can still do;


*Things Children of God Can Do:


1. Fall from grace - Gal. 5:1-4,13
2. Be led away with error - 2 Pet. 3:17
3. Err from the truth - James 5:19-20
4. Weak brother may perish - 1 Cor. 8:11
5. Fall into condemnation - James 5:12
6. Be moved away from the hope - Col. 1:21-23
7. Deny the Lord who bought them - 2 Pet. 2:1
8. Depart from the living God - Heb. 3:12
9. Can be a castaway - 1 Cor. 9:27
10. Can become accursed children - 2 Pet. 2:14

 

[peacefulbeliever]

Well then you are seeing how the context applies to those verses, because a person is only sealed by the Holy Spirit when they continue in the faith of Jesus Christ. If they grieve the Holy Spirit (Ephesians 4:30) and return to perdition (Hebrews 10:39) then will not inherit the kingdom of heaven.

This is what Ephesians 1:13 says: And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth (faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God Rom. 10:17) the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised holy Spirit who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession -- to the praise of HIS glory - NOT OUR GLORY . . . 4:30 And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, with whom you were sealed for the day of redemption - How do we grieve God? By using unwholesome talk, bitterness, rage and anger, brawling and slander, any form of malice - How not to grieve God - using words that are helpful for building others up according to their needs, being kind and compassionate to one another, forgiving one another.

The problem with using Ephesians 4:30 about the sealing of the Holy Spirit, is that you then do not continue to read on in Ephesians 5 where Apostle Paul says if you continue to show hatred, bitterness, fornicate, or any other uncleanness which is sinful behavior you will not inherit the kingdom of Christ and God. You can not take Ephesians 4:30 without Ephesians 4:31-32 and Ephesians 5:1-6, as those who continue to do those unclean sinful acts and believe they still have salvation are deceived.

Actually I was using Ephesians 1:13 - still doesn't say we lose our salvation - If a believer WALKS in hatred, bitterness, fornication or any other uncleanness which is sinful behavior they have NO inheritance - as in rewards . . Read 1 Cor. 3 about how we build upon our foundation in Christ.

The scripture in Ephesians 2:6 about being set in heavenly places with the Lord is a mental placement based on us keeping the faith, as once again scriptures can not stand out on their own as you have to read along in chapters 3 and 4 as well to get the full context. As Paul continues to say you must keep the unity with the Holy Spirit (Ephesians 4:3) and no longer walk in those sinful ways in which we previously walked in. (Ephesians 4:17-19) Apostle Paul says those who continue to walk as they previously walked before coming to Christ are blinded, and living in ignorance to the truth and are still alienated/separated from life of God. Then goes on to say you have not learned Christ, for living in a sinful nature of the flesh is not walking in the Truth.

Ephesians 2:6 - MENTAL PLACEMENT?????? It says: And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him (Christ) in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus, in order that in the coming ages he might show the incomparable riches of his grace, expressed in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus . . For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith -- and this NOT OF YOURSELVES, it is the gift of God --- so you are telling me that this is just a mental placement? And you are also telling me that God takes back his gift of salvation? 4:3 Make every effort to keep the unity of the Spirit through the bond of peace by (4:2) being completely humble and gentle; be patient, bearing with one another in love - this is unity within the body. v17 no longer live as the Gentiles do in the futility of their thinking - Gentiles? I am in the body of Christ where there is neither Jew nor Gentile . . . I have a sin nature - I have a divine nature - these to are contrary one to the other - I will have battles, I will be weak in some areas - Christ did not have a sin nature! I learn of Christ and endeavor to live as he did - I renew my mind so that I can have the mind of Christ - but I still have to deal with a sin nature - so it sometimes is a battle - I continue to run the race, and fight the fight . . . in MY WALK but not to gain or maintain salvation.

So you see you are doing exactly what I mentioned before that is taught in the osas doctrine, and that is picking out verses and trying to have them stand alone. We can not do that in being lead in the truth, and Apostle Paul almost always follows the teachings of eternal life/salvation with strict warnings to believers !!!

As do you PICK out verses and try to have them stand alone . . . You need to read Romans 7 - Did Paul ever lose his salvation?