Matthew 23:9 tells us we should not call anyone Father on earth because we have one spiritual Father in Heaven. Why have Catholic churches ignored this and we see the congregation turning to the priest as father instead of turning to the heavenly Father as Father?
calling a priest 'father'
- Thread starter MisterHarmony
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I call my cat "father" because he is one. I called my dad father on occasion because he was one. I have been called father by my sons, and my wife, as in, "Go ask your father.". While there have been many priests who have been "Fathers", I would hope that most are not, and I believe that most "are not". Some for biblical reasons, others for absolutely the most unscriptural of reasons... The question is, do we abstain from blood (Kosher foods) or do we like our meat with the blood. There were three commands that the Gentiles were supposed to follow ... abstain from fornication, from things strangled, and from blood, I believe. Deciding whether or not our wives can wear pants, or have their hair cut, or whether or not men need to have their heads covered during prayer ... some are cultural principles with a modern application.
For example, a shaved head no longer means being a temple prostitute. It usually means chemo therapy these days. The question for you is, why was this so important at the time it was written? What was it meant to address? Could a child call his dad father or is this a sin as well? Is my wife's statement, "Go ask your father" a sin, or is something else being addressed? If for example, a shaved head no longer caries the stigma that it was used to represent in scripture, should we not rather state the issue that was being addressed, and draw an understandable parallel in todays language, or at least present what the meaning was in the day it was written? Did Jesus sin by referring to earthly "fathers" in His parables? Did He not know His own commands?
Perhaps you would enlighten us as to the meaning from the cultural, religious, pharisaical traditions ... of the day in which this was written as to what was being addressed here. Hopefully your interpretation will not also make Jesus a sinner. he scriptures are full of references to "fathers" including Paul and "Spiritual fathers", ... perhaps all of the bible writers were sinning as well, or perhaps something else was being dealt with altogether. We need to be careful as to our interpretations ... with many, by what we choose to believe to be truth, we even make God Himself a sinner.
For example, a shaved head no longer means being a temple prostitute. It usually means chemo therapy these days. The question for you is, why was this so important at the time it was written? What was it meant to address? Could a child call his dad father or is this a sin as well? Is my wife's statement, "Go ask your father" a sin, or is something else being addressed? If for example, a shaved head no longer caries the stigma that it was used to represent in scripture, should we not rather state the issue that was being addressed, and draw an understandable parallel in todays language, or at least present what the meaning was in the day it was written? Did Jesus sin by referring to earthly "fathers" in His parables? Did He not know His own commands?
Perhaps you would enlighten us as to the meaning from the cultural, religious, pharisaical traditions ... of the day in which this was written as to what was being addressed here. Hopefully your interpretation will not also make Jesus a sinner. he scriptures are full of references to "fathers" including Paul and "Spiritual fathers", ... perhaps all of the bible writers were sinning as well, or perhaps something else was being dealt with altogether. We need to be careful as to our interpretations ... with many, by what we choose to believe to be truth, we even make God Himself a sinner.
Telling the truth, in love, often results in, "Have I become your enemy because I tell you the truth.". The truth is often not received well. I would also like to have help with things like, "You brood of Vipers.", "You sons of your father the devil", "You travel the world twice over to make one convert, and when you do, you make him twice the son of hell you are.". Do these words contain love? If so, perhaps you missed the love in mine as well. If we miss the truth because we are looking for kind gentle words all the time, and won't listen when they are used, is it not time for stronger wording? I believe the questions raised are valid ones, both in my earlier reply, and in this one.
MH, Catholics would point to Paul referring to himself as "father." Maybe they'd argue that priests are called "father" because they are proxies for our father in heaven. I don't know, I'm not Catholic. But, I agree with you, it's a term I'd rather not use of men, especially in a spiritual sense.
Protestants, Catholics, and nearly everyone seems a little too free to violate the teachings of clear verses, based on a questionable application of other verses which doesn't specifically address the topic. EmethAlethia seems like he might be willing to dismisses any verse by just waving his hand and claiming the verse addresses a no-longer-relevant cultural issue.
BTW, if someone's not using force against me, they're showing me all the love I need from them.
Protestants, Catholics, and nearly everyone seems a little too free to violate the teachings of clear verses, based on a questionable application of other verses which doesn't specifically address the topic. EmethAlethia seems like he might be willing to dismisses any verse by just waving his hand and claiming the verse addresses a no-longer-relevant cultural issue.
BTW, if someone's not using force against me, they're showing me all the love I need from them.
This is an example of "eisegesis" (imposing one's views upon a passage) as opposed to "exegesis" (drawing out the meaning of the passage from its context). In this verse, Jesus was discouraging His followers from elevating the scribes and Pharisees to the titles of “fathers” and “rabbis” because they were hypocrites. Jesus warns us not to elevate anyone to the level of our heavenly Father.
One verse up, Jesus says to call no one "teacher". Teacher in Greek can mean "doctor". If we follow your eisegesis, it's wrong to call a physician "doctor".
1 Cor. 4:15 - "...I became your father in Christ Jesus."
If your understanding of Matthew 29:3 is correct, then Paul is wrong.
If Paul is not wrong, then your understanding of Matthew 29:3 is grossly flawed.
You can't have it both ways.
P
phil112
Guest
The topic, if one knows catholicism at all, doesn't bear revisiting, but if you don't, here is their justification.
What a catholic priest says(oral tradition), or is taught, by another catholic supercedes the bible(written tradition).
What a catholic priest says(oral tradition), or is taught, by another catholic supercedes the bible(written tradition).
M
Matt1626
Guest
"Father Abraham had many sons, father Abraham"
it means don't put any person over god, really !
I'm new here and I didn't know one can just change the subject when stumped. I'll leave it up to you to provide a Catholic definition of oral tradition, not an anti-Catholic definition (lies). Here is a resource that will help, and I will stick to the topic at hand.
Biblical Evidence for Catholicism: "Tradition" Is Not a Dirty Word
Then, if read with an open mind, you might cease making up nonsense about oral tradition. Let's get back on track, shall we?
Priesthood and fatherhood have always been identified together. Fatherhood literally means "communicating one's nature," and just as biological fathers communicate their nature to their children, so do spiritual fathers communicate the nature of God to us, their children, through (hopefully) teaching and example. See Judges 17:10; 18:19
Acts 7:2; 22:1,1 John 2:13 - elders of the Church are called "fathers." Therefore, we should ask the question, "Why don't non-Catholics call their pastors "father?" Was it because the reformers unbiblically abolished the New Testament priesthood?
Phil. 2:22 - Paul calls Timothy's service to him as a son serves a "father." Oh no! Paul is at it again!
Perhaps the important thing missing is in the title of the OP...
calling a priest 'father'
...is the fact that all true believers are priests, (not just a 'special' class)and if that is true, the question is ''calling one another 'father' ''
1 Peter 2:5, 9 Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.
But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:
calling a priest 'father'
...is the fact that all true believers are priests, (not just a 'special' class)and if that is true, the question is ''calling one another 'father' ''
1 Peter 2:5, 9 Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.
But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:
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It's part of the OP's title. So it is part of the issue. We mistakenly see 'priests' as a special class,.
Perhaps this is Jesus' intention when He says call no man father..i.e. no one is more special than another in the Body of Christ.
Continuing, I don't think using the title 'father' in the sense that Paul was a 'father' to Timothy in the faith is a 'no-no' but rather seeing one 'elevated' above another in importance or status is what Jesus was referring to in ''call no man 'father' upon the earth.
J
JesusIsAll
Guest
The Lord Jesus was referring to addressing a man as father, which Catholics are in breach of, in even bigger breach calling the Pope a name of God, Holy Father. To some here, if the Lord Jesus said call no man father, that doesn't mean call no man father. If the Lord Jesus said the rich man was in hell, in torment, that doesn't mean the rich man was in hell, in torment.
I don't know what use a Bible is to some people, when they make everything they don't like a matter of private interpretation. And the fact is, if you who have another religion, a Catechism, Ellen White, Charles Russell, Joseph Smith, Reverend Moon, whatever, the real basis of your faith, such that you refute the Bible for your false prophets, this is a Bible Discussion Forum I thought, not Bible plus all printed doctrines from hell. Muslims also have a Jesus and Christian theology their own. Why not lets bring in what Mohammed wrote, to further rip at holy scripture? Since we're also doing cult chat, why not Muslim chat? Or why even bother, since the Bible doesn't seem to mean what it plainly says to much of anybody, anymore?
Heaven forbid anybody, out of a simple sense of obedience to the LORD, reverence and propriety, forego insisting on calling that man father.
I don't know what use a Bible is to some people, when they make everything they don't like a matter of private interpretation. And the fact is, if you who have another religion, a Catechism, Ellen White, Charles Russell, Joseph Smith, Reverend Moon, whatever, the real basis of your faith, such that you refute the Bible for your false prophets, this is a Bible Discussion Forum I thought, not Bible plus all printed doctrines from hell. Muslims also have a Jesus and Christian theology their own. Why not lets bring in what Mohammed wrote, to further rip at holy scripture? Since we're also doing cult chat, why not Muslim chat? Or why even bother, since the Bible doesn't seem to mean what it plainly says to much of anybody, anymore?
Heaven forbid anybody, out of a simple sense of obedience to the LORD, reverence and propriety, forego insisting on calling that man father.
"And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch."
As in...
Romans 4:1 What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?
1 Corinthians 4:15 For though ye have ten thousand instructors in Christ, yet have ye not many fathers: for in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel.
1 John 2:13-14 I write unto you, fathers, because ye have known him that is from the beginning. I write unto you, young men, because ye have overcome the wicked one. I write unto you, little children, because ye have known the Father.
I have written unto you, fathers, because ye have known him that is from the beginning. I have written unto you, young men, because ye are strong, and the word of God abideth in you, and ye have overcome the wicked one.
Don't know about Priest's or such, but "father" is a term used quite often in the Bible........first to mind is:
[h=1]Genesis
17[/h]
1 .) And when Abram was ninety years old and nine, the LORD appeared to Abram, and said unto him, I am the Almighty God; walk before me, and be thou perfect.
2 .) And I will make my covenant between me and thee, and will multiply thee exceedingly.
3 .) And Abram fell on his face: and God talked with him, saying,
4 .) As for me, behold, my covenant is with thee, and thou shalt be a father of many nations.
5 .) Neither shall thy name any more be called Abram, but thy name shall be Abraham; for a father of many nations have I made thee.
6 .) And I will make thee exceeding fruitful, and I will make nations of thee, and kings shall come out of thee.
7 .) And I will establish my covenant between me and thee and thy seed after thee in their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be a God unto thee, and to thy seed after thee.
[h=1]Genesis
17[/h]
1 .) And when Abram was ninety years old and nine, the LORD appeared to Abram, and said unto him, I am the Almighty God; walk before me, and be thou perfect.
2 .) And I will make my covenant between me and thee, and will multiply thee exceedingly.
3 .) And Abram fell on his face: and God talked with him, saying,
4 .) As for me, behold, my covenant is with thee, and thou shalt be a father of many nations.
5 .) Neither shall thy name any more be called Abram, but thy name shall be Abraham; for a father of many nations have I made thee.
6 .) And I will make thee exceeding fruitful, and I will make nations of thee, and kings shall come out of thee.
7 .) And I will establish my covenant between me and thee and thy seed after thee in their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be a God unto thee, and to thy seed after thee.
It doesn't matter to Catholics what you call your pastor, or leader, or bible facilitator, or minister, or reverend. So it shouldn't matter to anyone that Catholics BIBLICALLY call priests "Father".
Jamal sez:
ministerial priests,
and universal priests.
In the New Testament age the high priest is Jesus Christ (Heb. 3:1),
the ministerial priests are Christ’s ordained ministers of the gospel (Rom. 15:16),
and the universal priests are the entire Christian people (1 Peter. 2:5, 9).So the Bible clearly states that all Christians are priests (1 Peter 2:5, 9), as the Catholic Church clearly teaches for all who bother to read its teachings, see Catechism of the Catholic Church 1141-4, 1268, 1305, 1535, 1547, 1591-2 on the common priesthood. But the Bible also said the same thing about the Israelites (Ex. 19:6), yet this did not prevent there from being a separate, ministerial priesthood even before the Law of Moses was given (Ex. 19:22, 24).
Furthermore, since the top, Old Testament office of high priest corresponds to Jesus, the New Testament high priest, and since the bottom, Old Testament universal priesthood corresponds to the New Testament universal priesthood, the middle, ministerial priesthood in the Old Testament corresponds to a middle, ministerial priesthood in the New Testament.
This priesthood is identical with the office of elder. In fact, the term “priest” is simply a shortened, English version of the Greek word for “elder” — presbuteros — as any dictionary will confirm. This is any some Old Catholic translations render the word as “priests” where Protestant Bibles have “elder.” For example, in the Douay-Rheims Bible (the Catholic equivalent of the King James Version) we read:
We can see the fusion of the two concepts in Romans 15:15-16. In the New International Version of this passage, we read:
Luke 1:32 - God's angel says Jesus will be great and be given the throne of his "father" David.
Luke 1:55 - Mary says that He spoke to our "fathers," to Abraham and to his posterity for ever.
Luke 1:73 - Zechariah says the oath which he swore to our "father" Abraham.
Luke 16:24,30 - Jesus, in His parable about the rich man, says our "father" Abraham.
John 4:12 - the Samaritan woman asks Jesus if He is greater than our "father" Jacob.
John 7:22 - Jesus refers to the "fathers" who gave the Jews the practice of circumcision.
John 8:56 - Jesus tells the Jews your "Father" Abraham rejoiced that he was to see my day.
Acts 3:13,25; 5:30 - Peter teaches that the God of our "fathers" glorified His servant Jesus and raised Him to life.
Acts 4:25 - Peter and John pray to God and refer to our "father" David.
Acts 7:11-12, 15,19,38,44-45,51-52 - Stephen refers to our "fathers" in the faith.
Acts 7:32 - Stephen calls God the God of our "fathers."
Acts 13:17,32,36; 24:14; 26:6; 28:17,25 - Paul also refers to the God of our "fathers" in the faith.
Acts 22:3 - Paul says he was educated according to the strict law of our "fathers."
Acts 22:14 - Ananias says the God of our "fathers."
Rom. 4:1 - Paul calls Abraham our "forefather."
Rom. 4:16-17 - Paul says that Abraham is the "father" of us all and the "father" of many nations.
Rom. 9:10 - Paul calls Isaac, a spiritual leader, our "forefather."
1 Cor. 10:1 - Paul says that our "fathers" were all under the cloud, referring to the Old Testament spiritual leaders.
Gal. 1:14 - Paul says that he was zealous for the tradition of his "fathers."
2 Tim. 1:3 - Paul thanks God whom he serves with a clear conscience as did his "fathers" in faith.
Heb. 1:1 - the author says God spoke of old to our "fathers."
Heb. 3:9 - the Holy Spirit says that your "fathers" put me to the test.
Heb. 8:9 - God says not like the covenant that I made with their "fathers."
James 2:21 - James says was not our "father" Abraham justified by works when he offered his son Isaac?
1 Peter 1:18 - Peter says you were ransomed from the futile ways inherited from your "fathers." 2 Peter 3:4 - Peter says ever since the "fathers" fell asleep, all things have continued as they were from the beginning.
John 6:49,58 - Jesus says your "fathers" ate the manna in the wilderness and died.
There's more if you include the times when Jesus refers to a paternal parent.
"Call no man father" means not to elevate any man to the level of God the Father. Jesus is using a literary device called hyperbole. "...strain a gnat and swallow a camel" means “You pay close attention to little things but neglect the important things.” It's not literal.
No Catholic in 2000 years has ever elevated any priest to the level of God the Father. The idea is ridiculous.
Jamal sez:
"...the three-fold model of the priesthood which was in use at the time of Aaron was carried over into the New Testament and thus we find there also a high priest,
ministerial priests,
and universal priests.
In the New Testament age the high priest is Jesus Christ (Heb. 3:1),
the ministerial priests are Christ’s ordained ministers of the gospel (Rom. 15:16),
and the universal priests are the entire Christian people (1 Peter. 2:5, 9).So the Bible clearly states that all Christians are priests (1 Peter 2:5, 9), as the Catholic Church clearly teaches for all who bother to read its teachings, see Catechism of the Catholic Church 1141-4, 1268, 1305, 1535, 1547, 1591-2 on the common priesthood. But the Bible also said the same thing about the Israelites (Ex. 19:6), yet this did not prevent there from being a separate, ministerial priesthood even before the Law of Moses was given (Ex. 19:22, 24).
Furthermore, since the top, Old Testament office of high priest corresponds to Jesus, the New Testament high priest, and since the bottom, Old Testament universal priesthood corresponds to the New Testament universal priesthood, the middle, ministerial priesthood in the Old Testament corresponds to a middle, ministerial priesthood in the New Testament.
This priesthood is identical with the office of elder. In fact, the term “priest” is simply a shortened, English version of the Greek word for “elder” — presbuteros — as any dictionary will confirm. This is any some Old Catholic translations render the word as “priests” where Protestant Bibles have “elder.” For example, in the Douay-Rheims Bible (the Catholic equivalent of the King James Version) we read:
“For this cause I left thee in Crete, that thou shouldst set in order the things that are wanting, and shouldst ordain priests in every city, as I also appointed thee” (Titus 1:5).
“Is any man sick among you? Let him bring in the priests of the Church, and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil, in the name of the Lord. And the prayer of faith shall save the sick man; and the Lord shall raise him up; and if he be in sins, they shall be forgiven him” (James 5:14-15).
We also see in the New Testament that the functions of the Old Testament elder — who served in the synagogue — have been fused with the functions of the Old Testament priest — whose served in the temple.
We can see the fusion of the two concepts in Romans 15:15-16. In the New International Version of this passage, we read:
“I have written you quite boldly on some points, as if to remind you of them again, because of the grace God gave me to be a minister of Christ Jesus to the Gentiles with the priestly duty [literally, "the priestly work"] of proclaiming the gospel of God, so that the Gentiles might become an offering acceptable to God, sanctified by the Holy Spirit.”
Paul tells us that because he has been given a calling as a professional minister of Christ, he has a priestly work of preaching the gospel so that the Gentiles may be an offering — a sacrifice to God. This is not something only he has. Every elder in every church has that same “priestly work” of preaching the gospel. So Paul here conceives of the office of the New Testament minister as a priestly office. Notice that the hearers of the gospel in this passage are not depicted as priests, but as the sacrifice to God. Paul draws a distinction between himself and his work of preaching the gospel, and his readers and their duty of hearing it. It is the minister, not the congregation, who is here pictured as priest.
Yes. But how long does the list have to be before you would admit your error?
Luke 1:32 - God's angel says Jesus will be great and be given the throne of his "father" David.
Luke 1:55 - Mary says that He spoke to our "fathers," to Abraham and to his posterity for ever.
Luke 1:73 - Zechariah says the oath which he swore to our "father" Abraham.
Luke 16:24,30 - Jesus, in His parable about the rich man, says our "father" Abraham.
John 4:12 - the Samaritan woman asks Jesus if He is greater than our "father" Jacob.
John 7:22 - Jesus refers to the "fathers" who gave the Jews the practice of circumcision.
John 8:56 - Jesus tells the Jews your "Father" Abraham rejoiced that he was to see my day.
Acts 3:13,25; 5:30 - Peter teaches that the God of our "fathers" glorified His servant Jesus and raised Him to life.
Acts 4:25 - Peter and John pray to God and refer to our "father" David.
Acts 7:11-12, 15,19,38,44-45,51-52 - Stephen refers to our "fathers" in the faith.
Acts 7:32 - Stephen calls God the God of our "fathers."
Acts 13:17,32,36; 24:14; 26:6; 28:17,25 - Paul also refers to the God of our "fathers" in the faith.
Acts 22:3 - Paul says he was educated according to the strict law of our "fathers."
Acts 22:14 - Ananias says the God of our "fathers."
Rom. 4:1 - Paul calls Abraham our "forefather."
Rom. 4:16-17 - Paul says that Abraham is the "father" of us all and the "father" of many nations.
Rom. 9:10 - Paul calls Isaac, a spiritual leader, our "forefather."
1 Cor. 10:1 - Paul says that our "fathers" were all under the cloud, referring to the Old Testament spiritual leaders.
Gal. 1:14 - Paul says that he was zealous for the tradition of his "fathers."
2 Tim. 1:3 - Paul thanks God whom he serves with a clear conscience as did his "fathers" in faith.
Heb. 1:1 - the author says God spoke of old to our "fathers."
Heb. 3:9 - the Holy Spirit says that your "fathers" put me to the test.
Heb. 8:9 - God says not like the covenant that I made with their "fathers."
James 2:21 - James says was not our "father" Abraham justified by works when he offered his son Isaac?
1 Peter 1:18 - Peter says you were ransomed from the futile ways inherited from your "fathers." 2 Peter 3:4 - Peter says ever since the "fathers" fell asleep, all things have continued as they were from the beginning.
John 6:49,58 - Jesus says your "fathers" ate the manna in the wilderness and died.
There's more if you include the times when Jesus refers to a paternal parent.
"Call no man father" means not to elevate any man to the level of God the Father. Jesus is using a literary device called hyperbole. "...strain a gnat and swallow a camel" means “You pay close attention to little things but neglect the important things.” It's not literal.
No Catholic in 2000 years has ever elevated any priest to the level of God the Father. The idea is ridiculous.
Paul and Peter both refer to themselves as "Fathers", Stephen called the high priests of the Temple "fathers", Jesus called Abraham, "Father Abraham."
I asked if anyone had an example of a saint addressing a religious leader as "father" (as catholics address their pastors). You must have missed the word "address", because none of your verses involve a saint addressing a religious leader as father. Addressing means calling them that to their face, not speaking of them in the 3rd-person. And, most of your verses are essentially using the term father to mean an ancestor, while there may be a religious connotation to it, it's still an issue of ancestry, and isn't used to speak of contemporaries.