Calling all Prophets: post your resume here ;)

zone · Aug 8, 2011

Wednesday, May 12, 2010

Bickle and the Man-Child

Updated May 31, 2010
Updated June 13, 2010

This is the first in an ongoing series on the recently recovered recording of Mike Bickle's seminal sermon "Blow The Trumpet in Zion." It was recorded in the early days of the Kansas City Fellowship, five weeks after the appearance of Prophet Bob Jones. The night before this address God gave Mike Bickle a call to gather a solemn assembly. Although a critical document concerning Bickle's IHOP movement, it had dropped off the radar, perhaps because it reveals failed prophecy and bad doctrine.

I am presently transcribing this message and will make that transcription available at a future date. Please join in to the discussion of this critical sermon. I don't have all the answers but I think it is worth the effort to discover the true significance of it.

There are (at least) two schools of thought about the man-child of Revelation. The more orthodox view is that the man-child is Jesus (who will rule all the nations with an iron scepter). Those subscribing to the Manifested Sons of God doctrine believe that the man-child is the victorious, over-coming church that has attained full maturity.

Mike Bickle in "Blow the Trumpet" states (in 1983) "I believe that this is the generation that God has ordained before the beginning of the world to usher in the presence of His Son." Note the similarities between this and the Jehovah Witnesses who said that Jesus would return in 1974, and after 1974 revised that prediction to state that Jesus's presence had returned in 1974.

This, of course, is a blatent contraction of God's Word, in which Jesus states: "Behold, I am with you always." His presence cannot return; it never left.

You say, well maybe Mike meant the actual physical return of Christ. Did he? He quotes a friend as saying: “Mike” he said, “We’re going to keep our appointment with destiny.” He says “It’s unavoidable; it’s before us.”

So the question is "What is that appointment that WE are going to keep?" A related question is "has a generation passed since 1983?"

It is also possible, even likely that Bickle embraces the MSoG teachings and a literal, physical return of Christ. The two thoughts are not necessarily mutually-exclusive.

Mike helps us along by telling is that the setting in which the "precious baby Jesus came into the earth" is the "same setting in which he will give His Son the second time."

Keep in mind that Mike is keenly aware of the imagery of Revelation 12, which speaks of the woman, "being with child" and later of that child being born. He will speak of that later.

And so he proceeds to lay the foundation that "Luke 1 and 2, in my opinion, become the most prophetic chapters in the New Testament of the coming revival." And so Bickle's entire theology rests on the private interpetation that Luke 1 and 2 is eschatological in nature. But to Bickle, perhaps the "coming revival" is the same as the coming of the Lord. Or not.

He further states "The prophecy that was true at his first coming is surely true at his second coming." The nagging question is this - is the second coming of Christ simply a literal return, or does include some MSoG-esque great end-time revival when the church attains "full maturity?"

This is the premier statement of this generation: Nothing will be impossible to the person that believes." -Mike Bickle, 1983

A major premise of the MSoG teaching is that we will become god-like - we will attain immortality, and nothing will be impossible. We will take back dominion of the earth; we will rule and reign. All of this before the resurrection.

The teaching also posits that there will be a great confrontation in the church, as the true believers triumph over the nominal believers. Bickle again:

Many will fall because of this thing, because their hearts are not truly God’s, they’re in the church only in terms of sitting on a pew on Sunday morning."

Many of them sit on church on Sunday morning and they will rise, because they will receive. He said it will be a sign that will be opposed throughout the whole earth.

The move of God that’s coming will have great opposition because in verse 35, it says the-the end of this is that the thoughts of many hearts will be revealed when the move of God comes. Because you see when God’s move comes, there is a confrontation.

Verse 35 speaks of a sword- we don't know if it is a literal sword that "pierces the souls," but one of Bickle's associates, Bob Jones, has often spoken of the coming "Civil War in the church," which is portrayed as a literal bloody slaughter.

But I digress. The question is this - does Mike Bickle teach MSoG? I'll let Mike answer this for himself - he will "stake his reputation" on it.

I am saying this with every ounce of my reputation on this. If I am wrong, as a young man I am ruining my future with what I am going to say. I'm risking everything that I have, I am going out to the nth degree on this statement. And this tape, I am sure, because you're going to be the ones doing it, we are going to take it to every part of this city. So my entire future is based upon this statement. God will move in a new way in this city at the end of that 21 days.

The full-grown child won't be but for three years, but the baby will be born. Dreams and vision will begin to come. The Spirit of prayer will begin to fall. Prayer groups will gather everywhere. Supernatural wisdom will come all over
this city. Signs and wonders will begin. It will be small, beginning, people will begin to be saved at a much higher rate, it will be small, but it will begin and increase, increase. And in a three year period, according, I don't know this, but according to which I believe, it will be a mature man, a mature young man, a strong man, the young child that will be born.

-Mike Bickle "Blow the Trumpet in Zion" 4-17-1983 (Part 2 at 41:50)

Elsewhere in the tape, Bickle explains "in other words, the (city-wide) revival would be in full scale in three years." Regardless, a very strange way of wording things. However, it is worth pointing out that Bickle (at 41:50) was essentially quoting Bob Jones, whom he refused to identify on the tape. (See "Some Said it Thundered" by Pytches for more on this). Jones, whose "new-breed" teachings are hardcore MSoG, very much shaped and influenced the early days of the Kansas City Fellowship.

A faithful reader has pointed out that in Mike Bickle's contemporary series on the book of Revelation Mike (now) states that the male Child is Jesus. see page 3. So the question is, in 1983, did Mike Bickle believe that Jesus was going to return in 1986? Or did he believe in some sort of JW-esque return of His presence? Or was he actually, despite his current denials, teaching MSoG in 1983?

We will continute to look at this document, which indeed is foundational in IHOP beliefs and practices. If Mike Bickle today states "Some uphold the false teaching (MSoG) that in this age believers can have faith that will enable them to attain to qualities of life that are reserved only for believers in the resurrection," then he is clearly denying a current connection with the MSoG heresy. On the otherhand, there can be no doubt that the IHOP orginization has an unhealthy emphasis on dominionsim.

Listen to "Blow the Trumpet in Zion" on the Internet Archive.

BeyondGrace: Bickle and the Man-Child

zone · Aug 8, 2011

Neo-Montanism
[1901-present]

VII. The Widespread Effects of Neo-Montanism Today 4. Christian Bookstore Shelves are filled with books, tapes, and videos on how to grow prophetically, how to hear the voice of God, how to flow in the supernatural, etc. Some examples of these books are cited below:

~

- Understanding God's Prophetic Move Today - by Dr. Noel Woodroffe
- Prophets and Personal Prophecy - Bishop Bill Hamon
- The Elijah Task, A Call to Today's Prophets - John and Paula Sandford
- Growing In the Prophetic - Mike Bickle

Neo-Montanism: Pentecostalism is the ancient heresy of Montanism revived

Montanism
[2nd century heresy]
http://www.bible.ca/tongues-montanism.htm

zone · Aug 8, 2011

THE HERESIES OF MIKE BICKLE:
http://www.freewebs.com/thechinnicis/Bible%20Studies/An%20authopsy%20of%20Mike%20Bickle.pdf

pdf

zone · Aug 8, 2011

Birthpangs | A NEW WORLD ORDER IN THE MAKING

The Church
of Tomorrow

MIKE BICKLE AND INTERNATIONAL HOUSE OF PRAYER

A Biblically based commentary on current issues that impact you

The Latter Rain Redividus
By Bob DeWaay

Earlier this year the International House of Prayer (IHOP) sponsored a conference in Kansas City entitled Passion for Jesus that was heavily promoted toward young people. The purpose of the conference was to "cultivate intimacy with Jesus." In the conference's second session, IHOP president and director Mike Bickle preached a message based on an allegorical interpretation of a Matthew 25 parable in which he explained his end times theology and "revelation of the bridal paradigm." Bickle claims that Jesus cannot return until something drastically changes in the church: "He is not coming any day. He is not coming until the people of God globally are crying out in intercession with a bridal identity under the anointing of the Spirit.1" If you do not understand what he means by that it is likely because you have read the Bible literally and have never found anything regarding a special anointing that imparts a revelation of a "bridal identity." In fact, much of Bickle's terminology will be strange and foreign to most Christians.

In this article I will show that Bickle's movement is based on allegorized scripture, deeper life pietism, and mysticism, representing a slightly modified version of the heretical Latter Rain movement of the 1940s. Bickle claims that he began his ministry through the hearing of an audible voice of God in 1983 that told him to start 24-hour prayer in the spirit of the tabernacle of David. He further claims that he erected a sign to that effect and that he himself did not even know what prayer in the spirit of the tabernacle of David was, despite that God had told him to establish it. It turns out that it is "prophetic singing prayers.2" Once they figured out what it was, IHOP was born.

The Latter Rain End-time Scenario

On IHOP's Web site is a series of affirmations and denials that appear to distance themselves from the discredited Latter Rain movement. (I explained Latter Rain ideas in a previous CIC article.3) For instance, they deny any belief in the Joel's Army teaching4, one of the key teachings of the Latter Rain stating that an end-time church would arise with great power and defeat God's enemies during the Great Tribulation. They also taught that Christ could not return to the "defeated" church they deemed existed in their day.

As I documented, key leaders of the New Apostolic Reformation have picked up the concept and teach the same thing. This teaching is so eccentric that it is unlikely anyone espousing it had not been influenced by those who first proposed it. This is especially so when one considers Bickle's past associations with prophets like Paul Cain of the Latter Rain era. Therefore I conclude that Bickle and IHOP have indeed been influenced by the Latter Rain despite their denials.

Bickle claims that the church will not only go through the Great Tribulation, but the church will cause it:

We're not absent for the great tribulation, now listen carefully, the church causes the great tribulation. What I mean by that – it's the church, it's the praying church under Jesus' leadership that's loosing the judgment in the great tribulation in the way that Moses stretched forth his rod and prayed and loosed the judgments upon Pharaoh. The church in the tribulation is in the position that Moses was before Pharaoh but it won't be a Pharaoh and Egypt, it'll be the great end time Pharaoh called the antichrist and the book of Revelation is a book about the judgments of God on the antichrist loosed by the praying church.

In Bickle's eschatology, the church, with a special type of prayer as the key, defeats Antichrist. The Latter Rain version claimed that a company of prophets and apostles would do it. In both versions an elite end-time church defeats God's enemies, and Jesus is "held in the heavens" until it happens. Earl Paulk actually wrote a book by that title in the mid 1980s.5

Bickle describes his doctrine that Christians must adopt a certain version of prayer before Christ can return:

Right now the prayer movement is growing fast….really fast! But when I say it's growing fast instead of one percent of the Body of Christ taking hold of it, maybe 10 percent. It's….you know it's like 10 times bigger than it was a generation ago, but beloved as fast as the prayer movement is growing, where people are getting hold of it, still for 90 percent of the Body of Christ it's not even on their mind. Jesus is not coming until the Body of Christ globally is crying out "Come Lord Jesus, Come Lord Jesus, Come Lord Jesus" and they don't just say "come and forgive me" they are crying out in the understanding of who they are as the one that is cherished by Jesus in the bridal identity.

Note the elitism. Here, Bickle obviously refers to people who have adopted his movement, and by implication has rendered useless the practice of praying in the manner the Bible teaches—with regard to God executing His plans for the earth.

The proof text for this idea is this passage: "And the Spirit and the bride say, ‘Come.' And let the one who hears say, ‘Come.' And let the one who is thirsty come; let the one who wishes take the water of life without cost." (Revelation 22:17) First, it is not clear whether the Spirit and bride are asking Christ to come, or whether the Spirit and bride are inviting all to come to Christ to find salvation (as the last part of the verse does). I believe that the entire verse is an invitation to salvation, not a call for Christ to return6. Second, in either case, the passage does not only address some elite end-time group that has a special bridal paradigm revelation. The church has been praying for Christ's return ever since He gave us the Lord's Prayer. Every time we receive the Lord's Supper and thus "proclaim the Lord's death until He comes," we implicitly state our longing for table fellowship at the marriage supper of the Lamb. It is abusive to imply that Christians throughout the centuries had inadequate prayer because they lacked a personal revelation that cannot be validly derived from Scripture.
Another idea that Bickle emphasizes throughout his message is that the greatest revival lies ahead and will be contemporary with the Great Tribulation. This makes sense from the Latter Rain perspective, but where is it taught in Scripture? Amazingly, Bickle claims that Matthew 24 teaches it: "There's so many principles in this [parable of the virgins] parable. It is an end time parable, I tell you it is. It is for the people and when the crisis and the revival of the great Matthew 24 is unfolding."

Hold on. Matthew 24 teaches a great end-time revival? Where? It teaches the opposite: a great end-time falling away. Here are a few passages:

For many will come in My name, saying, "I am the Christ," and will mislead many. . . Then they will deliver you to tribulation, and will kill you, and you will be hated by all nations on account of My name. And at that time many will fall away and will deliver up one another and hate one another. And many false prophets will arise, and will mislead many. And because lawlessness is increased, most people's love will grow cold. . . . For false Christs and false prophets will arise and will show great signs and wonders, so as to mislead, if possible, even the elect. (Matthew 24:5, 9-12, 24)

Not one verse in Matthew 24 teaches a great revival where Christians defeat God's enemies. And Bickle cites none, but he claims the teaching exists there:

We're still in Matthew 24 it's all about the end times—Matthew 24 and then the three parables. Jesus is preparing the church through these three parables to walk in victory in the hour of the greatest revival in history and the greatest time of trouble in history—it's called the Great Tribulation.

The Bible simply does not teach this revival. The Bible teaches that there will be people coming to faith during the Tribulation, but most of them are martyred7. The idea of the revival Bickle describes is a Latter Rain teaching that came from allegorizing some Old Testament passages about the agricultural seasons in Israel. Bickle repeatedly refers to this non-existent revival and makes it the centerpiece of his allegorization of the parable of the virgins.

What we have here is Latter Rain redividus8. In its resurrected form it is sans anti-trinitarianism, the manifested sons, and a few other false teachings that caused the first version to be discredited. But the distinctive eschatological doctrines of the Latter Rain are alive and well. In both movements, Jesus cannot return for the church because the church is supposedly "defeated" or "lacking revelations." In both movements, it is the church, and not God Himself, who defeats God's enemies during the Tribulation. In both movements all Christians are considered unenlightened and lacking, except those elites who are privy to special experiences and revelations. Both movements predict an expected end-time revival that is greater than anything that has gone before.

Allegorized Scripture

The bridal paradigm so central to IHOP's teaching is based on an allegorical interpretation of the Song of Solomon that creates the idea of an "intimacy with Jesus" that is analogous to a sensual relationship between a man and a woman. (K. Jentoft deals with the problems with such a "Jesus" in the accompanying article in this issue of CIC.) But the problematic practice of allegorizing God's Word to find hidden or secret meanings causes much mischief in other ways besides the romantic Jesus they promote.

For example, consider Bickle's interpretation of the parable of the virgins. First, with no exegetical support he claims that the parables in Matthew 24 and 25 are about "leadership at the end of the age." Bickle says, "He is specifically talking to leaders." In fact, the parable of the virgins is a warning to disciples to be faithful and vigilant. Bickle then goes on to claim that the two groups of five in the parable are people who have intimacy with Jesus and those who lose it:

He is not contrasting wise and evil, he is talking about wise and not so wise, but these are within the ranks of the people who are saying yes to the Lord. These are people who love the Lord today, and their love for the Lord stays steady to the end, but their connect with the Lord [sic]; a lot of people who love Jesus, they lose their connection with him at the heart level; I mean at the intimate level. I'm not talking about people, this is not talking about people who lose their salvation; it's talking about people who lose their intimacy in all that is going on at this time of history.

But what in the context tells us levels of "intimacy" are the issue? (Remember, the bridal paradigm implies the sensual—the Bible never uses the term "intimacy.") I will deal with the two-level schema in the next part of this article. But here Bickle is not making much of an attempt at literal exegesis. The parable itself teaches that the foolish were lost people, not lesser Christians:

And while they were going away to make the purchase, the bridegroom came, and those who were ready went in with him to the wedding feast; and the door was shut. And later the other virgins also came, saying, "Lord, lord, open up for us." But he answered and said, "Truly I say to you, I do not know you." (Matthew 25:10-12)

It is serious when Jesus shuts the door to the wedding banquet and says "I do not know you"! But Bickle interprets those in the parable to be Christians. In the context of other such warnings in Matthew (such as those in Matthew 7 who said "Lord, Lord" and the parable of the sower and the seeds) it is clear enough that Matthew is warning that some are false disciples who do not really know the Lord.

According to Bickle, the lamps are ministries: "They all had a lamp…they all had a functioning ministry. They're born again, they're virgins and they all have a functioning ministry." Bickle assumes they are born again because of a passage in 1Corinthians that calls believers "virgins." But this is not how parables work. In Jesus' use of parables, He tells a story that uses language of literal Jewish wedding practices to make a point. The story contains literal oil, lamps and virgins as there would have been in the situation described in the parable. It does not follow that every detail has a meaning that is found by how terms like oil, lamps, or virgins are used elsewhere. But the allegorical method finds hidden meaning everywhere. So for Bickle the lamps are ministries and the virgins are truly regenerate Christians.

cont.....

zone · Aug 8, 2011

Mike Bickle and International House of Prayer

A Biblically based commentary on current issues that impact you

The Latter Rain Redividus
By Bob DeWaay

cont.....

Since all went out to meet the bridegroom in the parable, Bickle says that the ten, "were involved in pursuing the Messiah as the bridegroom God." Never mind that the "revelation" of the bridegroom God is Bickle's own invention based on allegorization of other passages. But allegorizing one passage in his hermeneutic helps prop up further allegorization of others: "Now there is only one time in history, only one time in all of human history where the people of God universally, worldwide will see Jesus as a Bridegroom King – a Bridegroom God and that's at the end times. It says in Revelation 22:17 ‘The spirit and the bride say come.'" Bickle is correct in that quote. The Spirit and bride have indeed said "come"; they have said it since John wrote Revelation and the invitation has been valid throughout church history. Bickle's interpretation has no merit. But, if we follow Bickle's thought, he proposes that now we have leaders with the revelation of the Bridegroom God at the end of the age with ministries (lamps) going out to meet the groom.

Another allegorized part of the parable in Bickle's scheme is the oil: "Oil – oil is the heart connect with the Holy Spirit. As we cultivate our secret life in God, did you know that every one of us in this room have [sic] a secret life with God. . . . It's the reach of your heart for God. Every one of us are [sic] developing a secret history in God – that's the oil, the connection with the Holy Spirit." Is there any evidence from the text of Matthew that oil means "secret life with God" that is better for some Christians than others? Clearly not. The contrast in Matthew is between those who are alert and therefore ready for the Lord's return and those who are not: "Be on the alert then, for you do not know the day nor the hour" (Matthew 25:13). But Matthew's meaning does not even factor into Bickle's interpretation.

Why should that be so? Because it does not fit into his Latter Rain eschatological scheme he likely ignores the issue of the need to be alert, based on the realization that we do not know when the Lord will return. He claims that the Lord cannot return until after the entire church gets the revelation of the Bridegroom God, defeats God's enemies, and calls Jesus from heaven to return. If all that were already happening when Jesus does return, then obviously the entire church would be in the condition of the five wise virgins and would hardly be taken by surprise by the timing of the return. So not only does Bickle's interpretation make no sense based on what we read in Matthew, it does not even make sense based on his own eccentric eschatological scheme.

The allegorical approach to hermeneutics attacks the concept that the meaning of the Scriptures is determined by the Holy Spirit-inspired authors. The clever allegorist finds his own meaning. The bottom line is that the reader who dreams up the allegory determines the meaning of the Bible; God, who inspired the Scripture, does not. The Bible becomes a touch point, a base for creative ideation where ideas that have no direct link to the text itself inspire new interpretations.

Deeper Life Pietism

In an earlier CIC article I described various types of pietism that claim there are two types of Christians, with certain elites in the preferred category9. Like the Latter Rain, Mike Bickle's IHOP takes pietism to a completely new level, and his message on the parable of the virgins shows this. He has promoted pietism by claiming that the wise virgins are Christians with a better secret connection to God and the foolish ones are Christians with worse, or lesser, connections to God. Pietism is unbiblical, and Bickle misinterprets the parable of the virgins in order to find it there. The foolish virgins were not Christians not only because Jesus said "I do not know you," but because the parable before this one (about the slave) and the parable after it (about the talents) clearly portray as non-Christians those who were not faithful. In the first case it states "the master of that slave will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour which he does not know, and shall cut him in pieces and assign him a place with the hypocrites; weeping shall be there and the gnashing of teeth. (Matthew 24:50, 51). The issue is the same: the master coming at an unexpected time. In the parable of the talents it says this: "And cast out the worthless slave into the outer darkness; in that place there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth" (Matthew 25:30). The parable of the virgins does not teach Bickle's two- (or more) tiered scheme of types of Christians.

Bickle has various dividing points between the good kind of Christian and the lesser one. One of those is "connected" and "disconnected." Bickle states: "He wants us connected to his heart, not that you feel God all day every day, but I tell you when I press into the Lord with a bridal paradigm and I stay connected to him, my heart gets tenderized." So, am I to believe that if I come to God on His terms, believing that Jesus' blood washed away my sins, and I "draw near" to the throne of grace by faith, I am still lacking something that only certain elite Christians like Mike Bickle have gained through revelation? Pietism sounds spiritual enough, but it always is an attack on the finished work of Christ and the solas of the Reformation. What God has done in Christ to forgive sins and bring us near to Him is the same for all true Christians: "But now in Christ Jesus you who formerly were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ" (Ephesians 2:13).

The elite-minded leaders at IHOP are selling a bill of goods. They have bought the lie that by imagining "passion for Jesus" along the lines of sensual intimacy that they have ascended into an elite class that will make them like Moses and they will be able to call down the plagues on the world. They have pumped themselves up into imagining that the Great Tribulation will be the stage where they show off their exemplary spiritual powers and prowess.

It gets truly scary when they call for Christians to send their teenagers to Kansas City to get this same "passion." This is actually happening, so be warned. These young people are being inducted into a reworked version of the elitist Latter Rain heresy. If children believe Mike Bickle they will return home convinced that their parents' faith is totally inadequate. They will think that way because Bickle's doctrine is an attack against grace alone, faith alone, Christ alone, Scripture alone, and to the glory of God alone. They will have been taught to add "the revelation of the bridegroom God" which amounts to thinking of Jesus as a sensual lover in order to avoid being one of the foolish virgins whom the Lord says He does not know. The foolish "virgins" are supposedly anyone who does not believe Bickle's false teaching.

Besides "connected and not connected" there is other terminology in this version of pietism that divides the body into the "haves and have nots". There are those who have "intimacy with God" and those who do not. Bickle says, "Being the bride of Christ is a position of privilege near to experience the heart of God." Therefore the privileged ones possessing this special revelation are supposedly closer to the heart of God than ordinary Christians are. The book of Hebrews speaks of drawing near to God in several passages, and none apply to an elite group with a special revelation. Neither do any speak of a "bridegroom God." Here are a few:

Let us therefore draw near with confidence to the throne of grace, that we may receive mercy and may find grace to help in time of need. . . . Hence, also, He is able to save forever those who draw near to God through Him, since He always lives to make intercession for them. . . . Let us draw near with a sincere heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled clean from an evil conscience and our bodies washed with pure water. (Hebrews 4:16; 7:25; 10:22)

Drawing near to God as taught in Scripture is not based on being part of a certain elite Christian class who have achieved a better piety, but it is based on what God has done for us in Christ. Our hearts are cleansed by His work of grace that we receive by faith. The Bible offers us assurance because we know we are sinners and that God is holy. Our comfort is that Jesus intercedes for us and has made a way that our sins are forgiven and we have access to the throne of grace. We draw near because of what Christ has done, not because we know some supposed secret to intimacy with God that has not been taught in Scripture.

Bickle's version is man-centered because it focuses on the supposed deeper experience that certain Christians have cultivated. He defines the "secret life" as follows: "It's the reach of your heart for God." This apparently is based on something that we do. He asks, "What are you doing in your secret history in God? Are you developing it with strength or are you neglecting it?" He is helping his listeners feel guilty about lacking something that they will have to set out to gain through their own effort based on his revelation. Hebrews encourages us by explaining what Christ has done and how He has made access for us. What we need is faith in Christ, not faith in the level of our own personal piety or "personal history in God." I am quite certain I am an impious sinner who, by God's grace, has found a gracious and forgiving Savior.

The Marriage Supper of the Lamb

We will not know exactly what it means for the church to be the bride of Christ until after Christ returns and we participate in the marriage supper of the Lamb. Bickle's "revelation of the bridegroom God" claims to know what is not yet revealed. What can be known about the bride of Christ metaphor is found only in what the Bible tells us. And what it tells us reveals that it is not restricted to an elite, end-time group with a "passion" that ordinary Christians lack.

For example, Jesus described the eschatological feast in this way: "And I say to you, that many shall come from east and west, and recline at the table with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven" (Matthew 8:11). The Old Testament saints participate in the feast along with people throughout history who have saving faith. Participation is not predicated upon a "revelation of the Bridegroom God" but rests on our having faith in God according to His terms.

When Jesus celebrated the Last Supper with His disciples He made reference to a "cup" that will be drunk at the eschatological banquet

And when He had taken a cup, and given thanks, He gave it to them; and they all drank from it. And He said to them, "This is My blood of the covenant10, which is poured out for many. Truly I say to you, I shall never again drink of the fruit of the vine until that day when I drink it new in the kingdom of God." (Mark 14:23 – 25)

At a Passover meal there were four cups associated with the four promises of Exodus 6:6, 7. The third cup was associated with the promise "I will redeem you." Jesus offered the third cup when He said "This is My blood of the covenant." But He put the drinking of the fourth cup on hold until it will be shared by all of the redeemed at the marriage supper of the Lamb. Interestingly, the cup that we will share with Jesus, the fourth cup, was associated with this promise from Exodus 6:7 – "I will take you for my people and I will be your God." This covenant statement is thematic in the Bible and is repeated toward the end of Revelation: "And I heard a loud voice from the throne, saying, "Behold, the tabernacle of God is among men, and He shall dwell among them, and they shall be His people, and God Himself shall be among them" (Revelation 21:3). When Jesus returns for His church, the dead in Christ shall rise first, and all who are truly His shall meet Him in the air (1Thessalonians 4:17). Then He shall share that fourth cup at the marriage supper of the Lamb.

To further illustrate this, Paul calls the cup we share at the Lord's Supper, "the cup of blessing" (1Corinthians 10:16). This is an allusion to the cup the Lord blessed at the Last Supper11. Then in 1Corinthians 11:26 Paul says that in the Lord's Supper we "proclaim the Lord's death until He comes." So we receive the "cup of blessing," the third cup to remember that He poured out His blood for our redemption, and we do so in His physical absence as He has bodily ascended into Heaven. But we also do so in faith that He will keep His promise that we will share the fourth cup with Him at the eschatological banquet feast. And we will do so with all of the redeemed.

The marriage supper of the Lamb occurs when this anticipated fourth cup is shared and the promise associated with it (that He will be our God and we his people) will be fully actualized. This is part of the hope that Christians have shared through the centuries. Bickle would like to take it away from all but a few elite, enlightened ones at the very end of church history.

Conclusion

By the authority of God's Word I offer the following assurance: Jesus Christ, God Incarnate, died for sins and was raised on the third day. He bodily ascended to Heaven and has promised to bodily return for His own. If you truly repent and believe the gospel, your sins are forgiven and you are part of the bride of Christ. To be alert means to persevere in the faith, not moved away from the hope of the gospel. If you confess Jesus as Lord and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead (Romans 10:9), you are saved. This eternal hope is true because of what Christ has done for you through His once-for-all shed blood—and not what you have done for Him.

In contrast, Mike Bickle offers hope to those who have a certain unquantifiable level of "intimacy with the bridegroom God", "secret history with God", "passion for the bridegroom", and "revelation of who they are to Jesus", and other pietistic notions. But consider how tenuous assurance is when based on one's own level of piety (according to Bickle): "Nobody can measure how strong or weak that [secret history] is; nobody really knows. You can't even fully measure it, but God can." If you are a follower of IHOP and Mike Bickle, it means that you may not be one of the wise virgins and your status as such cannot be known to you. In fact, you would have to be rather brash to claim that you were sure your secret history was good enough to qualify. Bickle tells you that being one of the foolish virgins is not so bad. But do you really think Jesus slamming the door on you and saying He does not know you is desirable? By Bickle's definitions the majority of Christians have no hope of qualifying.

Because Bickle's allegorical interpretation comes from his own imagination and not from the meaning of the Biblical authors, placing your hope in what he offers means placing it in his own imagination. I am offering you the hope of gospel made certain by God's acts in history, backed fully by the Scriptures interpreted literally according to the Biblical authors' meaning. If you believe on the Lord Jesus you shall be saved, and you will most assuredly participate in the marriage supper of the Lamb. If you are Bickle's follower you should seriously consider discarding his false hope based upon your own personal level of mystical revelation and personal piety. Place your hope instead on Christ and in His finished work.

Issue 107 - July / August 2008

End Notes

Mike Bickle audio message #2; given March 6, 2008.
All further references are to the above audio recording unless otherwise noted.
Critical Issues Commentary
International House of Prayer : article not found
Earl Paulk, Held In The Heavens Until… God’s Strategy for Planet Earth; (Atlanta: K Dimension Publishers, 1985)
Both George Eldon Ladd A Commentary on the Revelation; (Eerdmans: Grand Rapids, 1972) and John Walvoord, (Moody Press: Chicago, 1966) interpret the entire passage as an invitation to salvation and not a call for Christ to return.
There will be 144,000 Jewish believers, Revelation 7:4 and people will come to Christ. But the scenes where multitudes of believers are discussed in Revelation are mostly in heaven and often are about people having been martyred. IHOP teaches an entirely difference scenario.
Redividus is Latin for “come back to life.”
Critical Issues Commentary
William Lane, “The Gospel of Mark” in The New International Commentary of the New Testament; (Eerdmans: Grand Rapids, 1974) 508, 509.
Gordon Fee “The First Epistle to the Corinthians” in The New International Commentary of the New Testament; (Eerdmans: Grand Rapids, 1987) 468.

http://www.birthpangs.org/articles/latterrain/mike-bickle.html

zone · Aug 8, 2011

4runner said:

Lou Engle of TheCall Ministries

HALL OF SHAME ~ CULT LEADERS / PREDATORS ROW
Lou Engle of TheCall Ministries in HALL OF SHAME ~ CULT LEADERS / PREDATORS ROW ......... Forum

zone · Aug 8, 2011

Lou Engle, The Call, Martyrdom, & The NAR

June 2, 2009 by pjmiller

In light of the recent story concerning the murder of abortion doctor George Tiller, I found this article on Lou Engle (and The Call) interesting. Though I may not agree with all the author writes, the information concerning Engle makes it worth reading. There are also a number of video clips worth watching and embedded links on Engle and Wagner’s New Apostolic Reformation Org.

From Talk to Action:
quote

Footage from TheCall San Diego, taken November 1, 2008 by video documentarist Michael W. Wilson [author of Silhouette City] shows Engle and his disciples exhorting a Qualcomm stadium crowd to acts of Christian martyrdom against legalized abortion: rhetoric that serve as thinly veiled exhortation towards violent acts of terrorism against abortion clinics and abortion providers.

Engle and his disciples have a history, going back by some reports at least to 2002, of issuing calls from onstage, before crowds of thousands at TheCall events, for acts of Christian martyrdom, antiabortion violence, to end legalized abortion in America.

Lou Engle serves on C. Peter Wagner’s elite Apostolic Council of Prophetic Elders, part of Wagner’s New Apostolic Reformation.

The Call focuses on opposition to gay right and abortion rights, and Engle has repeatedly forecast that conflict over abortion rights may lead to a second American civil war.
Through TheCall, Lou Engle has quietly mainstreamed language that was, during the 1990′s and up through 2001, to be found mainly coming from the militant wing of the antiabortion movement associated with the antiabortion terrorist movement known as the Army Of God.

Engle’s rhetoric closely tracks that of Army of God members who, like Engle, have declared that a second American civil war will be necessary to atone for blood-debt curse they claim God has placed on America because of legalized abortion.

Less than a year and a half ago Lou Engle, at a December 31, 2007 TheCall event held in Kansas City, announced his new doctrine, “The Doctrine of The Shedding of Innocent Blood”

“Surely blood requires blood in God’s judgment. God so highly values humanity that He protects it with His severe judgment. A day of reckoning is set if man does not obey Him… Where there is shedding of innocent blood, there is no atonement for the land. There is a blood pollution problem on America’s soil. The most “dangerous terrorist” is not Islam, but God. One of God’s names is “the Avenger of Blood.” Have you worshipped [sic] that God yet?”

more here
I will say The The Army of God organization, is one spooky group.

Lastly, though I’m not a fan of MSNBC’s The Rachel Maddow Show, I happened to catch the segment with Frank Schaeffer last night. What he had to say (beginning at around 6:15 into the clip) was very interesting.

He explains how he, his father (the late Francis Schaeffer), CBN’s Pat Robertson, and Jerry Fawell held secret meetings planning one agenda to present to the public (and to President Reagan) concerning the abortion issue, while planning another (agenda) behind closed doors.
If interested you can watch it here: Frank Schaeffer clip(If you’d rather not listen to the stuff prior to him speaking you can move the ‘doo-hicky’ up to the 6 minute mark to avoid it)
You may be wondering what the point is of this post–and I’ll tell you I’m not sure. But there is something about all of it, which bothers me deeply. Perhaps the post is just my laying a few things out so as to ‘see’ if I can fit the pieces together…

Lou Engle, The Call, Martyrdom, & The NAR Sola Dei Gloria

zone · Aug 8, 2011

Vengeance Is Ours: The Church in Dominion

AMAZON:
This review is from: Vengeance Is Ours: The Church in Dominion (Paperback)
It's a frightening thought that so many have bought into this form of perverted theology...it's a theology of hate rather than love. Dominionism/reconstructionism is a huge octopus, and Al Dager connects all the tentacles and even the minor suction cups of this behemoth. Al covers the subject thoroughly although I'd have liked to have him connect the dots in some of the neo-nazi tentacles of this theology. However, this is the best book on the Dominionist belief system and who all is involved with it. Buy it! It's a keeper for research!

This review is from: Vengeance Is Ours: The Church in Dominion (Paperback)
I had been hearing and reading alot over the past few years that seemed to be contradicting what I had learned from Scripture . After reading this book certain things became very clear . This book is no lightweight fluff . Al Daeger has once again hit the nail on the head and tells it like it is . If truth is what you seek , truth is what he speaks .

This book explains and exposes Dominion Theology . The best book I have read on the subject .

zone · Aug 8, 2011

Restoring the Gospel of Salvation

Does not the salvation of sinners trump national restoration?

C. Peter Wagner, chief apostle of the New Apostolic Reformation (NAR), made a tactical decision to see Dominionism as temporarily consistent with democracy. I have not been able to locate when and where Wagner made such an "apostolic decree." But, indeed, the Kingdom of God cannot ultimately be a democracy. For Wagner and any other Dominionist, the democratic process can only be a way station on the road to their "kingdom of God on the earth," which is prior to the real Parousia.

Wagner's tactical decision (as opposed to strategic decision) was a major change.

It opened the way for the false apostles and prophets to enter the political arena.

So now "apostle" Lou Engle is free to lay apostolic hands of blessing on 3-time divorcee Newt Gingrich. Now the NAR apostles and prophets, thanks to Janet Porter and WorldNetDaily, can take their equal places in politics. Now they have the blessing of James Dobson, who endorsed Janet Porter’s May Day event at the Lincoln Memorial. Now Cindy Jacobs, prophetess extraordinaire, who had a visit of the Seraphim in her room that caught it on fire, can share the stage with Newt Gingrich. Now Rick Joyner, who has his own political action organization which he calls the Oak Initiative -- and who reportedly made a trip to heaven and heard Martin Luther repent of the Reformation -- can rub shoulders with James Dobson.

So now these self-anointed, self-appointed apostles of the NAR, laden down with false signs and wonders, false apostolic decrees, and false prophets -- who compete with each other in imaginary "can you top this" fraudulent oracles supposed to be from God -- have been given the kiss of acceptance by Christian Right politicians, including James Dobson. The apostles and prophets see this as a match made in heaven, a giant step toward appointing apostles as governors of every state and province in the world, complete with in-house prophetic seers to make supernatural decisions.

But I for one see it as blip in church history (like the Montanists of the 1st century), a match made in the pit of political desire for power before our King returns in His glory.

Herescope: Restoring the Gospel of Salvation

Consumed · Aug 8, 2011

Great posts zone 

pickles · Aug 8, 2011

After reading all of this, I can see why scritpure speaks to prophacies and knowladge ceacing, being imperfect.
I apoligise now for most of what I could not understand, mainly because Jesus, and the scriptures is what I look to.
Not because I know better, simply because it is all I can understand and know.
I did see some very good points here, the best being that we must not look to any other than Jesus.
I could share what I think and believe about this debate, but it would be imperfect, because my place in faith is where Jesus brings me for now,
and this walk is not the same as anyone elses.
Although the goal is the same.

The one thing that I will speak to, as this is what we all need to keep in heart.
Is that the scriptures are the truth, not made to support any one's own truth.
The scriptures are Gods given word, understood through the Holy Spirit.
The scriptures are not to prove any one's understanding.
We need always to know that everything is to the glory of God.
Things of the world , they will pass.
Because it is all about leaving these things and self aside, to follow Jesus.
It really doesnt matter who is right or wrong here, because Jesus is the truth.
God Our Father will bring all that is the truth in Jesus through the Holy Spirit.
The hope in these few words is simple, lest we lose sight.
Jesus!
Everything is, and comes through Him.
Maby we need not to look to argueing so much, and in prayer, look to Jesus.
Not prayers for what one thinks is right, or wants to be right.
but the truth in Jesus Christ is Lord come in the flesh!
Because without Him, there is no truth.

You all are good at argueing though.

In the love of Jesus.
God bless.
pickles

AnandaHya · Aug 8, 2011

pickles said:

Hi Pickles

how are you? "hugs"

I always love that you point to Jesus and I do think we should remember to seek God's Truth when reading the Bible and not to find ways to twist the Bible to fit our truths.

I try my best not to argue but state my position and WHY I believe as I do and listen to learn others thoughts and their words as they reveal their hearts to us as they write through their words. Rather or not their words changes my views I rest in God's hands and I try and pray about. If my heart is troubled then I learn if it because their words are true or because their words are dangerous and leads people down dangerous paths.

Too often I see that done and watch as people walk down paths God never intended them to walk in delusions they believe are truths to the ruin of their lives through the lures of this world: sex, drugs, mysticism/witchcraft, etc. However I also watch and see how God calls them back and puts them back on the path towards Him.

there are many things I don't know about the world, why different people read the Bible differently,

but I know in my heart the most important thing: that Jesus Christ came to save the world and died for our sins and rose again and has sent His Holy Spirit to testify that we are children of the most High God through the rebirth of a new heart and new spirit, washed clean of our sins and clothed by the imputed righteousness of Jesus upon His defeat of all the forces of darkness through His work on the Cross and the Love, Power and peace that comes with that knowledge. Therefore we continue to heed the upward call of God and run the race God has laid out before us diligently adding to our faith, virtue, knowledge, self control, brotherly kindness and love.

I'm going to have to read Zone's post but I wanted to respond to yours before I started that task. lol.

Because you remind me the real reason I started reading and posting in these forums. I know you have kids, how do you know that you are teaching them the right way and how did you guide them on the paths of righteousness to Jesus?

I didn't grow up Christians though I try and raise my kids that way, but so many have testified they were raised "Christian" yet do not believe in God. I wonder what happened?

I've found a lot of different reason but most often easy believism and nominal Christianity seems to be the main culprit.

lol this post is a lot longer then intended. have a blessed day

May be we can have a cup of coffee some time

AnandaHya · Aug 8, 2011

zone said:

Mike Bickle thinks Luke 1 and 2 are PROPHETIC of Jesus second coming?

"the coming move of God" supernatural revelations? God will take their testimony from them if they don't believe in this? No power in this generation?

don't be a Zacharias? He was a godly man and Jesus approved him and called him a prophet of GOD.

that's what Bickle says in the first 11 minutes of his sermon click on the words "Internet Archives" and listen for yourself.

sorry kids awake have to listen to these later, doesn't look like a promising sermon.

why wouldn't people want to be like Zacharias? The Bible says he was Righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless. He was given his voice back after the birth of John and prophecied how John would be the forerunner of Jesus Christ the Messiah. how did Mike Bickle get that people should NOT be like Zacharias? how did he get that if they were they would lose their testimony of JEsus Christ and that God would make them with "no power in this generation"?

luke 1
5 There was in the days of Herod, the king of Judea, a certain priest named Zacharias, of the division of Abijah. His wife was of the daughters of Aaron, and her name was Elizabeth. 6 And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless

pickles · Aug 9, 2011

AnandaHya said:

I understand about seeing many walk down a dangerous path, I know some that are doing this now.
The one thing that stands out strongly in those being mislead, it that they have not set Jesus as first.
They still seek self, actually we all do still in one way or another.

But I have also witnessed and seen in my own walk, that Jesus always brings a brokeness of that self, a humility in every person that has accepted Him, causing one humbled to look to Jesus recieving truth.
As Paul spoke to in Romans 8: 35-39, convinced nothing can separate us from the love of Christ.
Think about what brought you in Jesus?

It is Jesus who loved us first, and His love, sacrifice that brings us in Him through faith.
We are called to witness, correction, but when that correction brings only arguements and dissention, the witness is lost.
There is alot of scripture that speaks to such things, yet we all do seem to forget this.

With all that is in one's walk, Jesus is always the way, the truth and the light that guides one.
We can bring and refrance and debate, but all these things are imperfect, the only perfect I know is Jesus.
So He will always be first in my life, and what I will witness to.
I do see that you test and search all you read here, in scripture and faith, this is the humility in Jesus that brings His truth.

I understand as to our children, I was so unsure as what would be the best way to raise them in Jesus.
As many children reject, do to being force fed faith.

So I let Jesus lead me in this, living in faith, speaking to His presance and help, teaching as life brought the oppertunity. Mostly I witnessd to His presance and love for them, His truth.
There are times that I questioned if my husband and I should have done more, or did too much.

But I look to my children grown now, they all believe in Jesus, and live this belief.
They often suffer for their beliefs, yet I see in them a real faith, not born of requirements, but of an honest heart of love, trully seeking Jesus.
I do have one that is straddleing the line, mostly do to injury and pride, self preservation.
But I also see in this child a real desire for truth, real love, and know in Jesus that child will walk in real faith in Jesus.
My prayer was always that my children would love Jesus, and live this love in truth.
I am humbled and thankful that Jesus has answered this prayer, not for myself, but for their sakes.

I know only one thing , that in all things we need to look to Jesus, when reading scripture, reading another post here, in everything one does.
Simply because , all is imperfect, the only perfect is in Jesus.

Also, coffee would be great, but is it ok if I have tea, I love tea.

in Jesus, God bless.
pickles

Abiding · Aug 9, 2011

Pickles, your really a blessing

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Calling all Prophets: post your resume here ;)

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