Calvin did not invent the doctrines of grace

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.

cv5

Well-known member
Nov 20, 2018
23,005
8,373
113
#41
According to my understanding of history, Calvin persecuted those that did not agree with him to the point of death often.

It looks like he carried the same heart of his mother church he protested over...

Correct me if I am wrong.
If my memory serves, it was only one person. And Calvin consented to his execution, others were vigorously promoting this action. And Calvin consented with regret. But I am pretty rusty so someone else chime in.

I do not agree with such machinations BTW. The maximum punitive action within the Church is excommunication. Which can and should be overturned upon true repentance.
 

cv5

Well-known member
Nov 20, 2018
23,005
8,373
113
#42
It’s not a simple fact of Scripture.
It is for these persons. I mean....what would befall them without it?

Rom 11:5
Even so then, at this present time there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

Mat 24:22
And if those days had not been cut short, no human being would be saved. But for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short.
 

Pilgrimshope

Well-known member
Sep 2, 2020
14,148
5,722
113
#43
For many of these heretics, God takes a backseat to their pride believing they were chosen on what has to be some form of merit on their part, though weak attempts of false modesty are sometimes made.
Its an exact replication of what israel did that brought their destruction when the false prophets began telling them lies about their chosen state

“But there were false prophets also among the people,

even as there shall be false teachers among you,

who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction. And many shall follow their pernicious ways;

by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of.”
‭‭2 Peter‬ ‭2:1-2‬ ‭KJV‬‬


Peter is referring to the false prophets who led the people astray saying “ Gods warnings will never come to pass your chosen eat and drink and be merry no evil will ever come to us we’re the chosen isreal”

It’s happening now also

“Thus saith the LORD of hosts, Hearken not unto the words of the prophets that prophesy unto you: they make you vain: they speak a vision of their own heart, and not out of the mouth of the LORD.

They say still unto them that despise me, The LORD hath said, Ye shall have peace; and they say unto every one that walketh after the imagination of his own heart, No evil shall come upon you. ( hypergrace the chosen idea , no matter if you do evil or good doesn’t matter you’ll never be punished like he said )


For who hath stood in the counsel of the LORD, and hath perceived and heard his word? who hath marked his word, and heard it?

I have not sent these prophets, yet they ran: I have not spoken to them, yet they prophesied. But if they had stood in my counsel, and had caused my people to hear my words, then they should have turned them from their evil way, and from the evil of their doings.

I have heard what the prophets said, that prophesy lies in my name, saying, I have dreamed, I have dreamed. How long shall this be in the heart of the prophets that prophesy lies? yea, they are prophets of the deceit of their own heart; which think to cause my people to forget my name by

Therefore, behold, I am against the prophets, saith the LORD, that steal my words every one from his neighbour. Behold, I am against the prophets, saith the LORD, that use their tongues, and say, He saith. Behold, I am against them that prophesy false dreams, saith the LORD, and do tell them, and cause my people to err by their lies, and by their lightness; yet I sent them not, nor commanded them: therefore they shall not profit this people at all, saith the LORD.”
‭‭Jeremiah‬ ‭23:16-18, 21-22, 25-27, 30-32‬ ‭KJV‬‬

The New Testament has the same issue whenever anyone is insisting that Jesus words aren’t the right words for you to hear and believe , it’s because they are trying to get you away from his word and tell you thier word

when people take the bait and buy into false doctrine with thier teeth it really can damage thier potential faith in the future and lead people astray just like it did then and Peter told us would happen in our time

And many shall follow their pernicious ways;

by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of.”

Ots always been that man needs to accept what God said and believe it from Adam to the last man ever born so satans only plot is to get a person to reject what god said and accept his lie

this is the only way he can destroy anyone he must convince us that Jesus isn’t the right way , the fospemnosnt what he said , his words aren’t for us we have grace which means we don’t have to obey God ect ect

otherwise we’re going to know the truth and recognize his lies
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
26,074
13,776
113
#44
"Calvin did not invent the doctrines of grace"

Since Calvinism denies that God has offered His grace to ALL mankind, calling their teachings "the Doctrines of Grace" is DISHONEST AND MISLEADING. They should be calling them "The Doctrines of Anti-Grace".

How did the true Gospel get so perverted and who is really behind this? Certainly these are the doctrines of men, but who is the Puppet-Master who has blinded so many to the truth while perverting the true Gospel? Discerning Christians should know the answer.

Those who have not studied Calvin's commentaries on Gospel passages will be shocked to know that John Calvin actually interpreted Scripture correctly in those commentaries. He had no choice except to present what was in Scripture. But at the same time, he abandoned all that and began to promote what we know as Reformed Theology or Five-Point Calvinism. So how could a Christian be so double-minded?
 

cv5

Well-known member
Nov 20, 2018
23,005
8,373
113
#45

Snacks

Well-known member
Feb 10, 2022
1,410
771
113
#46

cv5

Well-known member
Nov 20, 2018
23,005
8,373
113
#47
No one is elected to damnation.
I never said that nor do I believe it.

Whatever people call "double predestination" is nothing more that God rendering judgement. It takes NOTHING away from the fact that He is a loving saving God, who desires the salvation of all men.

Now get rid of the red "X" if you don't mind.
 
Mar 23, 2016
7,021
1,673
113
#49
We are not all as ignorant of Scripture as you may think.
Romans 1
18For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
19Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
20For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
21Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.

Did you catch that? A few things PRECEDED their hearts being darkened. Let's continue...

22Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
23And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.
24Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:
25Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.

All men are born with a choice. The call goes out to all. Equal opportunity. No "master class".
Thank you for pointing out what is written in Romans 1.

Some folks believe that some descendants of Adam/Eve are born reprobate. However, God clarifies in Romans 1 that it takes quite a few steps before He gives them over to a reprobate mind (Rom 1:28). The word "reprobate" is translated from the Greek word adokimos which means not standing the test, not approved.


Mankind suppresses the truth in unrighteousness, God's wrath is revealed:

Romans 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness


After they do stupid stuff because they suppress the truth in unrighteousness, their foolish heart becomes darkened:

Romans 1:21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened


After they do stupid stuff due to darkened heart, God gives them over to uncleanness

Romans 1:24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves


After they do stupid stuff due to uncleanness, God gives them over to vile affections:

Romans 1:26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature


After they do stupid stuff due to vile affections, God gives them over to a reprobate mind:

Romans 1:28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient


Romans 1 reveals the patience of God and His lovingkindness even as mankind steps further and further away from Him in their abhorrent behavior before the God of all Creation ... the God we should be reverently worshipping and giving all honor and glory.

and please note that Romans 1 does not state that someone who is given over to uncleanness, or vile affections, or a reprobate mind cannot repent. How many times have you heard a brother or sister in Christ talk about their life before coming to Christ???

some folks I have listened to appeared to me to be on the last rung ... and a believer loved them enough to tell them about the Lord Jesus Christ, explain the unfathomable love of God to them, and they turned to God and God did not reject them, even though in the past, He had given them over to abominable behaviors.


Ezekiel 33:11 Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die ...

In Ez 33:11, God does not turn them ... it is the wicked who turn from their ways ... just sayin'
.
 

HeIsHere

Well-known member
May 21, 2022
5,900
2,288
113
#51
No one is elected to damnation.
If a person believes saving faith is a gift, or a person has no sense of agency and is unable to respond to the Gospel message they are are a Calvinist.
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
60,171
29,475
113
#52

Romans 12:2
Romans 12:3 For by the grace given me I say to every one of you: Do not think of yourself more highly than
you ought, but think of yourself with sober judgment, according to the measure of faith God has given you.
 

Everlasting-Grace

Well-known member
Dec 18, 2021
5,945
1,872
113
#53
If a person believes saving faith is a gift, or a person has no sense of agency and is unable to respond to the Gospel message they are are a Calvinist.
Just because one believes saving faith is a gift does not mean they are calvinist.

It is the work of God we believe, it is a gift. Given only by Grace that we even have the availability to be saved by grace through faith..
 

Snacks

Well-known member
Feb 10, 2022
1,410
771
113
#54
I never said that nor do I believe it.

Whatever people call "double predestination" is nothing more that God rendering judgement. It takes NOTHING away from the fact that He is a loving saving God, who desires the salvation of all men.

Now get rid of the red "X" if you don't mind.
I wasn’t implying you said or believe people are elected to damnation. I’m saying that according to calvinists, which you are not one, if only some people are elected to salvation and no one else has the ability to choose Christ of their own accord, then suffice it to say they believe everyone else is elected to damnation. It simply doesn’t get any more heretical than that.
 

Snacks

Well-known member
Feb 10, 2022
1,410
771
113
#55
If a person believes saving faith is a gift, or a person has no sense of agency and is unable to respond to the Gospel message they are are a Calvinist.
I agree with EG in post 53 but I understand where you’re coming from. Your heart is in the right place and for that I rejoice. 🙏
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
60,171
29,475
113
#56
Just because one believes saving faith is a gift does not mean they are calvinist.

It is the work of God we believe, it is a gift. Given only by Grace that we even have the availability to be saved by grace through faith..

Jesus' words in Matthew 17:20-21
Faith the size of a mustard seed moved the mountain of my unbelief- :D
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
26,074
13,776
113
#58
Just because one believes saving faith is a gift does not mean they are calvinist.
Since God desires the salvation of all mankind, if indeed saving faith were a gift, He would give that gift to absolutely everyone, and all would be saved.

But since all are not saved, it should be evident that saving faith is NOT a gift. It is generated through the preaching of the Gospel. Kindly study Romans 10 very carefully. It says "Faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the Word of God" (v 17). Here (as well as in other passages) the Gospel is called the Word of God, and it is also called "the power of God unto salvation" (Rom 1:16). The Gospel is also called "the imperishable seed" which brings about the New Birth.

Calvinists have no option other than to call saving faith a gift of God given selectively to the so-called elect, since Christ died only for these "elect". And the unspoken message is that God says "Let all the others be damned!" That teaching is actually rather blasphemous. since God says that He has no pleasure in the death of the wicked, and invites all the ends of the earth to come to Him and be saved.
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
60,171
29,475
113
#59
Since God desires the salvation of all mankind, if indeed saving faith were a gift, He would give that gift to absolutely everyone, and all would be saved.

But since all are not saved, it should be evident that saving faith is NOT a gift. It is generated through the preaching of the Gospel. Kindly study Romans 10 very carefully. It says "Faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the Word of God" (v 17). Here (as well as in other passages) the Gospel is called the Word of God, and it is also called "the power of God unto salvation" (Rom 1:16). The Gospel is also called "the imperishable seed" which brings about the New Birth.

Calvinists have no option other than to call saving faith a gift of God given selectively to the so-called elect, since Christ died only for these "elect". And the unspoken message is that God says "Let all the others be damned!" That teaching is actually rather blasphemous. since God says that He has no pleasure in the death of the wicked, and invites all the ends of the earth to come to Him and be saved.
Romans 12:3 For by the grace given me I say to every one of you: Do not
think of yourself more highly than
you ought, but think of yourself with
sober judgment, according to the measure of faith God has given you.
 
Mar 23, 2016
7,021
1,673
113
#60
I believe everything we have and are is a gift from God.

I also believe all descendants of Adam ... believer and unbeliever alike ... have faith.

The issue is in what ... or more importantly in Whom do we place our faith.

Even atheists have faith. The problem atheists have is they place their faith in the lie that there is no God.

Some hear God's Word and restrain, suppress, hinder the truth in unrighteousness as shown in Romans 1:18 ... For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness

Notice Romans 1:18 does not state that they do not have faith. Romans 1:18 states that they hold the truth in unrighteousness. The words "who hold" are translated from the Greek word katechō which means to restrain, suppress, hinder.

Those who do not restrain, suppress, hinder the truth in unrighteousness are those who hear the truth and believe as shown in Romans 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth ...

In 1 Corinthians 3:6, we are told that one plants ... another waters ... but God gives the increase.

So when one plants or waters and the hearer does not suppress the truth in unrighteousness, God brings increase.

And when God gives increase, I do not believe a person is given more and more faith. I believe God giving increase means that God strengthens the faith of the one who believes.

For those who remain weak in faith, it's not because they have less faith than the one who is strong in faith. The weak in faith are weak because they suppress the truth in unrighteousness or they are not taught the truth of Scripture and so remain ignorant. Because God only brings increase regarding His Word, when someone suppresses the truth (or is taught lies), God has nothing to increase, so they remain weak in faith.


That is why it is imperative that we take heed how we build upon the foundation.

1 Corinthians 3:

6 I have planted, Apollos watered; but God gave the increase.

7 So then neither is he that planteth any thing, neither he that watereth; but God that giveth the increase.

8 Now he that planteth and he that watereth are one: and every man shall receive his own reward according to his own labour.

9 For we are labourers together with God: ye are God's husbandry, ye are God's building.

10 According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon.

11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.


just my 2¢
.