Calvinism - Another Heresy

[John146]

If God foreknew so much about Israel's accepting him, as you assert, why having created them did he then try to wipe them out at Sinai, and tell Moses on another occasion that he was fed up with them and he would eliminate the whole lot of them and start the whole project again through Moses?

Or how about this...

Genesis 22
10 And Abraham stretched forth his hand, and took the knife to slay his son.
11 And the angel of the Lord called unto him out of heaven, and said, Abraham, Abraham: and he said, Here am I.
12 And he said, Lay not thine hand upon the lad, neither do thou any thing unto him: for now I know that thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only son from me.

God tested Abraham to see if Abraham truly feared Him. Abraham was going to slay his son and seeing this, God knew Abraham feared Him.

What man sometimes does is define who God must be and then put God in his definition instead of allowing Scripture to define who God is.

 

[trofimus]

Thats one way to look at it.

Another way to look at it is the thought that because God knew they would accept (based on foreknowledge) they were predestined. "Whom he foreknew he predestined"

This another look would be possible regarding this specific verse. But it would contradict other verses like in Romans 9:

"I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.”
It does not, therefore, depend on human desire or effort, but on God’s mercy..."

So, in the overall biblical context I would say it is not possible to look at it in such a way. He really predestined, not just foreknew.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

This another look would be possible regarding this specific verse. But it would contradict other verses like in Romans 9:

"I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.”
It does not, therefore, depend on human desire or effort, but on God’s mercy..."

So, in the overall biblical context I would say it is not possible to look at it in such a way. He really predestined, not just foreknew.

well if we interpret rom 9 according to the fatalistic view, (in view to the saving of individual people) You may be correct. But if we interpret romans 9 as Paul answering a question about God choosing Israel "has he made a mistake" we realize God is talking about chosing a nation, Not saving any individual person. And it still stands.

it can be translated both ways.. We have to determine how we want to interpret it.

 

[John146]

well if we interpret rom 9 according to the fatalistic view, (in view to the saving of individual people) You may be correct. But if we interpret romans 9 as Paul answering a question about God choosing Israel "has he made a mistake" we realize God is talking about chosing a nation, Not saving any individual person. And it still stands.

it can be translated both ways.. We have to determine how we want to interpret it.

Yes, Romans 9-11 are discussing how God used the nation of Israel to bring about His plan of the Messiah.

If any man or nation is going to receive mercy, that man or nation is going to receive mercy on God's terms not theirs. Man cannot will it any other way. Today, if we're going to receive the mercy of God, we must do it God's way, and God has provided the way through Jesus Christ. We cannot will it any other way. We must go through Christ.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Yes, Romans 9-11 are discussing how God used the nation of Israel to bring about His plan of the Messiah.

If any man or nation is going to receive mercy, that man or nation is going to receive mercy on God's terms not theirs. Man cannot will it any other way. Today, if we're going to receive the mercy of God, we must do it God's way, and God has provided the way through Jesus Christ. We cannot will it any other way. We must go through Christ.

I believe they are pauls answer to romans 9: 6. Has God made a mistake?

the question is, What mistake? how you answer this question is how you will interpret roman 9 - 11.

 

[Stephen63]

The problem with that is if He does not first give us His faith needed to believe no man could believe. Faith without His works has no spirit life to offer.

I see you're twisting the scriptures again. Nothing in scripture speaking about faith & works has Jesus' faith mentioned.

24Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only. 25Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way? 26For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

 

[posthuman]

Who are you to say that a Pepsi can identifies itself as a coke can?

please, please --

separate vending machines

 

[John146]

I see you're twisting the scriptures again. Nothing in scripture speaking about faith & works has Jesus' faith mentioned.

24Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only. 25Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way? 26For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

So the question must be asked: Which faith justifies? Man's faith? Christ's faith?

Galatians 2:16, Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

Galatians 2:20, I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

Philippians 3:9, And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:

Ephesisans 3:12, In whom we have boldness and access with confidence by the faith of him.

Romans 3:22, Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:

 

[Grace777x70]

It is very interesting that in James's examples of faith "being made alive" by a work or a corresponding action. Both Rahab and Abraham each did a one time corresponding action to demonstrate their faith.

Abraham believed God and offered up Isaac on the alter. Rahab received the spies. Both one time events in their life - God calls this faith in action.


James 2:20-25 (NASB)
[SUP]20 [/SUP] But are you willing to recognize, you foolish fellow, that faith without works is useless?

[SUP]21 [/SUP] Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up Isaac his son on the altar?

[SUP]22 [/SUP] You see that faith was working with his works, and as a result of the works, faith was perfected;

[SUP]23 [/SUP] and the Scripture was fulfilled which says, "AND ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS RECKONED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS," and he was called the friend of God.

[SUP]24 [/SUP] You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.

[SUP]25 [/SUP] In the same way, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out by another way?

Paul and James completely go together and do not cancel each other out.

We do the very same thing when we hear the message of Christ and we believe and then God seals us with the Holy Spirit. This is our faith with a corresponding action or a "work".

Ephesians 1:13 (NASB)
[SUP]13 [/SUP] In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise,

Romans 10:8-10 (NASB)
[SUP]8 [/SUP] But what does it say? "THE WORD IS NEAR YOU, IN YOUR MOUTH AND IN YOUR HEART"—that is, the word of faith which we are preaching,

[SUP]9 [/SUP] that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;

[SUP]10 [/SUP] for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.

This is faith with corresponding action - or a work.

 

[Depleted]

Rom 1
[SUP]32 [/SUP]who, knowing the righteous judgment of God, that those who practice such things are deserving of death, not only do the same but also approve of those who practice them.

If one can not know or understand his plight against God and has an ability to repent. They have an excuse. You

do not tell people. "You have no excuse" then keep the truth of their plight hidden so they have no way of escape.

And yes, You are a fatalist, Because you believe your future is predetermined no matter WHAT YOU DO.

Already answered. And since you denied one of my answer in this post you quoted from, I guess you just don't want to understand. But, boy! You're big on judging from that lack of knowledge.

Clue: The only people buying we're fatalists are the people who really want to judge us with lack of knowledge already. Kind of like slapping labels like misogynist, racist, Zionphobe, Islamaphobe, deplorable, homophobe, blahblahblah by the extreme left that also can't deal with reality. We have the same reaction to that too.

 

[Depleted]

If God foreknew so much about Israel's accepting him, as you assert, why having created them did he then try to wipe them out at Sinai, and tell Moses on another occasion that he was fed up with them and he would eliminate the whole lot of them and start the whole project again through Moses?

Wow! You also don't get God foreknew. Sorry. You don't have a problem with Calvinists. You have a problem with God and his word. You can't hear when you clog your ears intentionally.

 

[Depleted]

We agree, We deserve worse that that we deserve hell




I will judge God by what he does, and by what he commands us to do. To love so much he die for his enemy (us) and we are to follow his example.

If God died for his enemy, and we are ALL his enemy, Then God died for all. Otherewise, God does not even meet his own standard he demands we live in.

Yup! Universalism.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Already answered. And since you denied one of my answer in this post you quoted from, I guess you just don't want to understand. But, boy! You're big on judging from that lack of knowledge.

I did not deny it, I disagreed with it. HUGE DIFFERENCE.

Just because YOU said it, does not make it true.

Clue: The only people buying we're fatalists are the people who really want to judge us with lack of knowledge already. Kind of like slapping labels like misogynist, racist, Zionphobe, Islamaphobe, deplorable, homophobe, blahblahblah by the extreme left that also can't deal with reality. We have the same reaction to that too.

1. I am not judging you, I think I established that with my first post in this thread (you ever read what people say)
2. You believe your FATE is predeternined. That makes you a FATALIST. (the term means a person who believes their fate is predetermined)

end of story.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Yup! Universalism.

yeah whatever, You have anything to back this accusation? Or just being yourself and attack anyone who disagrees with you?

 

[Stephen63]

So the question must be asked: Which faith justifies? Man's faith? Christ's faith?

Galatians 2:16, Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

Galatians 2:20, I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

Philippians 3:9, And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:

Ephesisans 3:12, In whom we have boldness and access with confidence by the faith of him.

Romans 3:22, Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:

The KJV is inaccurate.

New American Standard Bible
16nevertheless knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the Law but through faith in Christ Jesus, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, so that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the Law; since by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified.

New American Standard Bible
20“I have been crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself up for me.

New American Standard Bible
Philippians 3:9 and may be found in Him, not having a righteousness of my own derived from the Law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which comes from God on the basis of faith,

New American Standard Bible
Ephesisans 3:12 in whom we have boldness and confident access through faith in Him.

New American Standard Bible
Romans 3:22 even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe; for there is no distinction;

Are you a KJonlyist?

WHY did you NOT investigate the truth? Did you just run to the internet & copy/paste? Is that good enough for you?

What false teaching are you trying to sneak in with this foolishness?

It's foolish actions like this why many are leaving the BDF.

 

[Grace777x70]

Many have left the BDF because of the behavior of some people in here that attack and insult others who have a different belief than they do in some non-essential areas.

Malice and slandering of others in the body of Christ is just as destructive as living the homosexual lifestyle. Us "religious" self-righteous believers love to "categorize" sins and try to make excuses for them.

This picture tells the story of why the world rejects things. We think they are rejecting Christ but in reality they are rejecting the way we represent Him in this world.

I'm sure that Calvin would agree with this too whether some of his beliefs were considered heretical or not.

 

[lv2ski]

I've been studying the Bible since you were three. It was settled longer ago than that, but you wouldn't know because you buy whatever anyone tells you.

So, yup, wise only in your own eyes. Arrogant and haughty.

Lol.... please don't find confidence in that response or reasoning. I know an 80 year old pastor (thankfully retired) who has been studying the Bible since you were 3,and he's a committed Arminist. Sooooo like, yeah.

What good is all that time if you spent it in the wrong place? And in the wrong trough? We are called to follow the Man, Christ Jesus. Not some commentator from 300 whatever years ago. And that's exactly what Calvin and Armini are.

 

[posthuman]

Yup! Universalism.

while His blood is sufficient for all, it is not received by all. One died so that by Him the sins of many would be removed.

the question here becomes how it is that He created women and men that will not receive Him, whether He knew this before ((of course He did)) or not, whether it was purposeful ((is He not God? what, He makes mistakes or isn't quite sure what He's doing?)) -- there's still the same conundrum: His will is that all should come to repentance, but people exist who do not come to repentance. and He created them also.

i'm afraid that we anthropomorphize this whole thing, and thinking we have all the cards, we look at it and say ah, God cannot have done this or cannot do or be doing this, because if i was god it wouldn't be right for me to do it that way. but this is God's universe, not ours, and there is no 'higher court of appeals' to take God to. we can't 'judge God'

"many are called, but few are chosen"
"I will draw all men unto me"
"many will come to me in that day saying 'Lord, Lord!'"
"whosoever will, come"
"you cannot believe, because you are not my sheep"
"flesh and blood have not revealed this to you"
"no one knows the Father except the Son and those whom the Son chooses to reveal Him to"
"the Son of Man came to seek and to save that which was lost"​

there is something far bigger than human reasoning going on here, something to inexpressibly thank and praise Him for

 

[eternally-gratefull]

while His blood is sufficient for all, it is not received by all. One died so that by Him the sins of many would be removed.

the question here becomes how it is that He created women and men that will not receive Him, whether He knew this before ((of course He did)) or not, whether it was purposeful ((is He not God? what, He makes mistakes or isn't quite sure what He's doing?)) -- there's still the same conundrum: His will is that all should come to repentance, but people exist who do not come to repentance. and He created them also.

i'm afraid that we anthropomorphize this whole thing, and thinking we have all the cards, we look at it and say ah, God cannot have done this or cannot do or be doing this, because if i was god it wouldn't be right for me to do it that way. but this is God's universe, not ours, and there is no 'higher court of appeals' to take God to.

"many are called, but few are chosen"
"I will draw all men unto me"
"many will come to me in that day saying 'Lord, Lord!'"
"whosoever will, come"
"you cannot believe, because you are not my sheep"
"flesh and blood have not revealed this to you"
"no one knows the Father except the Son and those whom the Son chooses to reveal Him to"
"the Son of Man came to seek and to save that which was lost"​

there is something far bigger than human reasoning going on here, something to inexpressibly thank and praise Him for

I agree, I think we think to much into it, and this gets us into trouble.

I do not think it is as hard as people make it out to be.

God could have had all of us born as adam was created, and left us to our own devises. And of course, if we chose to sin but once, we were doomed forever.

He alo knew if he put us in the same boat (place us all in adam so we are all condemned) not everyone would recieve.

so he had a few choices.

1. Destroy the earth and consider it a failure
2. Only allow those he knew would be saved to be born, making sure all the rest never were conceived. (which would do nothing to counter the lie of satan, that God is not a god of love)
3. Allow man to be born, and offer them all the gift of salvation. Die for them all (even when they were his enemy) and offer the free gift of eternal life. But not give it to everyone, Not force some to take it, But make it so he saves a person who desires to be saved. (of course he will help them to understand what this means when they start searching after being convicted by the HS) but let everyone know their judgment (The HS will convict the WORLD of sin righteousness and judgment) so they have no excuse (romans 1)

 

[Depleted]

I did not deny it, I disagreed with it. HUGE DIFFERENCE.

Just because YOU said it, does not make it true.



1. I am not judging you, I think I established that with my first post in this thread (you ever read what people say)
2. You believe your FATE is predeternined. That makes you a FATALIST. (the term means a person who believes their fate is predetermined)

end of story.

God is, so there is no such thing as fate. Hey! "Fatalism" is your belief. Exactly why should I be countering your own belief for you? Next thing you know, you'll want me to counter Hillary Clinton for Hillary. lol