Calvinism is Gospel !

[pinebeach]

sigh I'll post about it anyway

What Isaiah 45:7 is actually this:

I form light and create darkness;
I make well-being and create calamity;
I am the Lord, who does all these things.

I suppose calamity can be considered evil, but it is the result of sin such as A & E being kicked out of the garden

Such as the flood

Such as the Babylonians taking the Jews off to Babylon

Such as the 10 plagues so popular in Egypt

Such as the Red Sea closing around Pharoah and his army

Such as ... well you get the idea. All the results of sin.

 

[pinebeach]

Right, its not about a believer, its the lost unregenerate person. Thats my whole entire point. So before salvation man is enmity against God, he hates God !!

LOL! Your whole entire point is to create a Calvinistic approach to the actual gospel. No surprise to agree that verse applies to
those without Christ. It point blank says that very thing.

Shall I send you a medal Captain Obvious?

 

[Melach]

Foreknowledge does not equal causation. Allow me to show it from the Scriptures, where God foreknows something that does not eventually happen:

1 Samuel 23:11-13
Will the men of Keilah deliver me into his hand? Will Saul come down, as Your servant has heard? O Lord God of Israel, I pray, tell Your servant.”
And the Lord said, “He will come down.”
Then David said, “Will the men of Keilah deliver me and my men into the hand of Saul?”
And the Lord said, “They will deliver you.”
So David and his men, about six hundred, arose and departed from Keilah and went wherever they could go. Then it was told Saul that David had escaped from Keilah; so he halted the expedition.


As you see, God foreknowing this did not cause it to materialize, it did not happen, cause David fled. Therefore we conclude God foreknowing something does not cause things to occur. Counter-factuals prove this.

Also, open theism is a strong position I would say it is impossible to refute it contextually without importing philosophical meaning to the text.

!!!! i will grant you this point. but if foreknowledge does not equal causation in the grand scheme of things, how can humans have genuine freedom when God knows everything they will do? are you an open theist?

 

[brightfame52]

That again? That was already covered a good number of pages back and like you say, it was covered and no need to go over it again.

You dont have to go over it again.

Such glee in trying to blame God for all evil surely give you great relief in the coming judgement no doubt.

Sin is a servant to God, it serves His Purpose, just like the devil, he serves Gods purpose, when God is finished with him, He will cast him into the lake of fire as well.

 

[brightfame52]

LOL! Your whole entire point is to create a Calvinistic approach to the actual gospel. No surprise to agree that verse applies to
those without Christ. It point blank says that very thing.

Shall I send you a medal Captain Obvious?

My point was, man by nature hates God, it was a rebuttal to @Roger316

 

[Magenta]

Isn't loving the light a miracle of God?

Isn't hating the Light indicative of a God-hating heart?

You need to align your theology with Scripture.

The wicked revile the Lord.

 

[brightfame52]

sigh I'll post about it anyway

What Isaiah 45:7 is actually this:

I form light and create darkness;
I make well-being and create calamity;
I am the Lord, who does all these things.

That word for evil in the hebrew original is raʿ:
evil, distress, misery, injury, calamity

1. evil, distress, adversity
2. evil, injury, wrong
3. evil (ethical)

Ethical evil is the intentional violation of a moral standard or law by a conscious, responsible creature

ethical evil served for the purpose of the predetermined death of Christ Acts 2:23

23 Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:
He was slain in purpose from the foundation of the world Rev 13:8

8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

 

[Komentaja]

!!!! i will grant you this point. but if foreknowledge does not equal causation in the grand scheme of things, how can humans have genuine freedom when God knows everything they will do? are you an open theist?

I am undecided, but I do see that God has predestined some things, not all things. But assuming God knows the future free will choices a 100% to answer your question:

Because God knowing something ahead of time does not cause humans to act the way they do, so while the future is settled in a way that reality occurs exactly as God foreknew it would, creatures are still free to make said choices and are not bound by a decree or forced to act the way they do.

A limited example from our life: I know my son will disobey me at some point, that does not mean I decreed it, willed it or caused it.

 

[Roger316]

You do know that not everyone who does not espouse Calvinism automatically falls into the category of Arminianism, right?

Oh? You didn't know?

Well that's another very big problem in this thread. I am neither and I have stated that numerous times throughout the years but I would expect anyone to either remember that or give 2 hoots about it.

This is not really an either or or discussion raging debate and basically the only thing left is to defend against Calvinism which I have done and would continue to do; BUT I think it is shortsighted and more than a little biased. I find most Calvinists and those who say they are not but act just like one, to be unable to listen to anything but their own echoes.

Yes, I do know that there is a wide variation in what people believe, and I didn't imply that Calvinism and Arminianism were the ONLY views available or even possible. I see them as polar-opposite views, just as I see north and south as polar-opposite coordinates; I know and hope my reader knows that there is a lot of room between north and south.

 

[brightfame52]

Isn't hating the Light indicative of a God-hating heart?

Yes it sure is, I was going to use that scripture because God is Light 1 Jn 1:5

This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.

And we as men hate the Light Jn 3:19-20

And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.

We all by nature doeth evil and hate the light.

 

[brightfame52]

I am undecided, but I do see that God has predestined some things, not all things. But assuming God knows the future free will choices a 100% to answer your question:

Because God knowing something ahead of time does not cause humans to act the way they do, so while the future is settled in a way that reality occurs exactly as God foreknew it would, creatures are still free to make said choices and are not bound by a decree or forced to act the way they do.

A limited example from our life: I know my son will disobey me at some point, that does not mean I decreed it, willed it or caused it.

God knew Adam and eve would sin in the garden, could they not have sinned ? Was it Gods active decree that they sin ?

 

[Roger316]

Isn't hating the Light indicative of a God-hating heart?

You need to align your theology with Scripture.

The wicked revile the Lord.

You’re right to highlight the seriousness of rejecting the Light, and I appreciate the spirit of your reminder. Scripture does speak plainly about the danger of a God‑resisting heart and the way the wicked revile the Lord, and your concern reflects a genuine desire to keep our theology aligned with the Word. I’m grateful for that. At the same time, your comment encourages me to keep pressing into the Light rather than shrinking from it. Thank you for offering reproof in a way that calls us back to what matters—humility before God and a willingness to let Scripture correct us where needed.

 

[Melach]

I am undecided, but I do see that God has predestined some things, not all things. But assuming God knows the future free will choices a 100% to answer your question:

Because God knowing something ahead of time does not cause humans to act the way they do, so while the future is settled in a way that reality occurs exactly as God foreknew it would, creatures are still free to make said choices and are not bound by a decree or forced to act the way they do.

A limited example from our life: I know my son will disobey me at some point, that does not mean I decreed it, willed it or caused it.

you are good at explaining things. are you in pastoral duty? speaking of pastors, i must ask mine about those verses in samuel.

but in your view is evil without purpose? God just allows it in order to preserve a free will, for what reason? who cares about man's free will.

 

[Magenta]

Yes it sure is, I was going to use that scripture because God is Light 1 Jn 1:5

This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.

And we as men hate the Light Jn 3:19-20

And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.

We all by nature doeth evil and hate the light.

This is true. Unfortunately we also know it is true that Pelagian heretics and many of those with CDS reject a
slew of Scriptures detailing the fallen estate of the natural man. Reject, ignore, deny, and outright contradict
what Scripture plainly articulates in favour of their opinions based on un-Biblical philosophical constructs.

 

[Komentaja]

you are good at explaining things. are you in pastoral duty? speaking of pastors, i must ask mine about those verses in samuel.

but in your view is evil without purpose? God just allows it in order to preserve a free will, for what reason? who cares about man's free will.

Thank you. I am just a regular guy who loves to study the Bible and I do talk to people in the highways and byways. If your pastor is a calvinist, he will probably say the counter-factuals were also predestined and God acts within time to accomplish those, He caused David to inquire that etc.

Basically there is no way to refute calvinism if you operate on a spectrum that is outside of the Bible. All the categories they have created combined with the philosophical explanations to turn all interaction with God into puppet theatre can only be believed if one reads the Scriptures through that lens.

I will give an example of Genesis 6:6 where God regrets creating man and is grieved by mankind's sin, this cannot happen in calvinism because of all the philosophical attributes they have given to God. God cannot change so He cannot have emotions, God is outside of time so He cannot be slow to anger etc. So this cannot mean what it says, therefore they have to say it's just anthropomorfic language or God interacting with us in time in the novel He has written.

Fun fact about the word anthropomorfism, this word was literally created to explain why God doesn't mean what He says. I quote from wikipedia:

"Anthropomorphism and anthropomorphization derive from the verb form anthropomorphize,[a] itself derived from the Greek ánthrōpos (ἄνθρωπος, lit. "human") and morphē (μορφή, "form"). It is first attested in 1753, originally in reference to the heresy of applying a human form to the Christian God."

This is then used to get rid of God's real attributes to replace them with the platonic ones. Very sad.

 

[Magenta]

Ezekiel 36 v 27 I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.

 

[GWH]

Ezekiel 36 v 27 I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.

And (pretend it is on a pretty poster):
God 's love has been has been poured into our hearts
through the Holy Spirit who has been given to believers
in Jesus as the Lord incarnate. (Romans 5:5b, Acts 16:31)

 

[Melach]

Thank you. I am just a regular guy who loves to study the Bible and I do talk to people in the highways and byways. If your pastor is a calvinist, he will probably say the counter-factuals were also predestined and God acts within time to accomplish those, He caused David to inquire that etc.

Basically there is no way to refute calvinism if you operate on a spectrum that is outside of the Bible. All the categories they have created combined with the philosophical explanations to turn all interaction with God into puppet theatre can only be believed if one reads the Scriptures through that lens.

I will give an example of Genesis 6:6 where God regrets creating man and is grieved by mankind's sin, this cannot happen in calvinism because of all the philosophical attributes they have given to God. God cannot change so He cannot have emotions, God is outside of time so He cannot be slow to anger etc. So this cannot mean what it says, therefore they have to say it's just anthropomorfic language or God interacting with us in time in the novel He has written.

Fun fact about the word anthropomorfism, this word was literally created to explain why God doesn't mean what He says. I quote from wikipedia:

"Anthropomorphism and anthropomorphization derive from the verb form anthropomorphize,[a] itself derived from the Greek ánthrōpos (ἄνθρωπος, lit. "human") and morphē (μορφή, "form"). It is first attested in 1753, originally in reference to the heresy of applying a human form to the Christian God."

This is then used to get rid of God's real attributes to replace them with the platonic ones. Very sad.

i think it is indeed anthropomorfic language because otherwise God is just like man? gets mad and is sad

 

[Bible_Locket]

i think it is indeed anthropomorfic language because otherwise God is just like man? gets mad and is sad

Yet,in Scripture,we are told God does get mad and is sad.

If we do so,and are made in God's image and likeness, how is it not possible our emotions were inbued within us, made innate, because they were attributes of our Creator first?

 

[Journey_man]

So..... We can choose?

Yes, unless we are born again, we can only choose to do evil continuously.