Calvinism - Total Depravity
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Calvinism vs Arminianism
or
Predestination vs Free Will
Predestination: God is in total control of everything and that nothing can or does happen that He does not plan and direct, including man’s salvation.
Free Will: man has free will and that God will never interrupt or take that 'free wil'l away. Thus, God respects the free moral agency and capacity of free choice with which He created us.
or
Predestination vs Free Will
Predestination: God is in total control of everything and that nothing can or does happen that He does not plan and direct, including man’s salvation.
Free Will: man has free will and that God will never interrupt or take that 'free wil'l away. Thus, God respects the free moral agency and capacity of free choice with which He created us.
This is easily answered with the below verse, which says if He is lifted, He will draw ALL men.
John 12:32 “And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.”
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eternally-gratefull
Guest
Calvanism : God gives "Saving Grace" to Elect (only)
Arminianism: God gives "Saving Grace" to all men 'on one condition' --Faith
Both are Right in their assertions, Yet both are wrong in what they Deny!
If that answer made sense, sure.
So everyone is saved no matter what?
Or does the Lord mean all men that the Father has drawn to Him?
Or are you trying to say that the Lord draws everyone but doesn't have enough skill or power to keep them saved?
E
eternally-gratefull
Guest
By your two statements, Both are right. However, I disagree Arminians teach the second. while most calvanist would hold to the second, there disagreement is how faith comes to be.
Here is an article I found some time ago and it explains better than I ever could.
"Certainly, the Bible does teach that God is sovereign, and that believers are predestined and elected by God to spend eternity with Him. Nowhere, however, does the Bible ever associate election with damnation. Conversely, the Scriptures teach that God elects for salvation, but that unbelievers are in hell by their own choice. Every passage of the Bible that deals with election deals with it in the context of salvation, not damnation. No one is elect for hell. The only support for such a view is human logic, not Biblical revelation (which John Calvin did teach)." (Koinonia House)
It means that the Lord has drawn all men unto Himself. Some accept, some reject. Some are saved and some are not saved. Obviously the Lord drawing a man may or may not lead to salvation. Only if they believe on the gospel of Jesus Christ.
"Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved"
If man was already chosen to salvation, then man has no ability to believe. God chose it for him. That in itself voids out all the passages that state that man must believe on the gospel.
Haha...
John 3:27 [FONT="]John answered and said, A man can receive nothing, except it be given him from heaven.
[/FONT]YEP!!
That's a false article. All passages in the Bible talking about predestination are talking about already saved people being predestined for the adoption, the redemption of our bodies. That's not salvation. If a man has not ability to be saved, then that man has no choice but to go to hell. God has chosen not to save them because He gave them no ability. No thank you! That's unbiblical!
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eternally-gratefull
Guest
yep
Unless God did all the work of salvation. Man could have no faith. So God had to give man something to have faith in.. That is the "gift" of God. (namely the cross)
But god gave me faith, and did not allow someone else to have faith even if they wanted to.
No. That is not God. (and the issue I have)
That is your philosophy not what the bible says.
John 6:65 [FONT="]And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.
[/FONT]John 10:27-29
[FONT="]27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:[/FONT]
[FONT="]28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.[/FONT]
[FONT="]29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.[/FONT]
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eternally-gratefull
Guest
I try not to listen to what others say people believe, But try to listen to the people themselves. Listening to what others say, gets us into trouble. The worse person to go to find out what others believe, are the people apposed to them. They will most likely give you a biased view. WHich is not based on fact, but fiction.
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eternally-gratefull
Guest
This does not say God does not call all men, It just says his sheep hear his voice and follow.
Many are called, Few are chosen.
Jesus said in the same passage why those who did not follow Jesus did not follow.
[SUP]35 [/SUP]And Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life. He who comes to Me shall never hunger, and he who believes in Me shall never thirst. [SUP]36 [/SUP]But I said to you that you have seen Me and yet do not believe.
Jesus never said he did not chose them, or God did not draw them to himself. (the fact they were there by a miracle jesus performed the previous day proves this)
He said they did not believe. That is what separated them from the ones who saw and believed.
Romans 9:13-18
[FONT="]13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.[/FONT]
[FONT="]14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.[/FONT]
[FONT="]15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.[/FONT]
[FONT="]16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.[/FONT]
[FONT="]17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.[/FONT]
[FONT="]18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
We all have issues. None of us can say 'this is how God must act every time'. We just have faith that God is a merciful God and will repent of His Wrath toward us.
Why some don't have this faith is beyond our comprehension. Neither one of us can see anothers heart. We can guess...[/FONT]
I'll reply with scripture: [h=1]Romans 8:6-8English Standard Version (ESV)[/h][FONT="]6 For to set the mind on the flesh is death, but to set the mind on the Spirit is life and peace. 7 For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God's law; indeed, it cannot. 8 Those who are in the flesh cannot please God.[/FONT]
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eternally-gratefull
Guest
rom 9 is not about one child being saved and one child being condemned as babies, or God hating a baby and loving another baby. (in fact no place in scripture will you find God hated anyone)
if we do not get the context of romans 9 correct. We will not understand what is being said.
other than that I agree 100% (as I usually do with what you say) We must have faith God is merciful, and will repent of his wrath (the cross proves this) nor can we understand why some have faith and others do not. Why did people who say Jesus raise lazarus from the dead deny he was messiah? other than unbelief, I have no answer. I can just guess
Amen he was lifted up and has drawn all that the father gave Him. not one more or one less.
John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
Matthew 20:28 Even as the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many.
Then you do not read any material concerning anything but simply listen to others and form your opinion??????? How do you listen to people of History past????
Reading what others say and determining what they say is either in accordance to your beliefs or NOT. If you read several articles, then you have the ability to test you beliefs against others and even change them if necessary.
Throughout the years, I have changed my mind on the what the Bible states many times. Sometimes by simply re-re-reading the Bible, reading other peoples writings/ and opinions (i.e. this forum, Biblical Scholars, etc) and other articles (i.e Archeology, History, etc). I compare these with my beliefs and simply discard them or accept them. Which is why I am in the small majority of the literalist who read the Bible quite literally and believe it is the Divinely Designed, Written, Inspired 'WORD of GOD'.
God is in my opinion 'beyond the constraints of mass, acceleration and gravity, therefore He is outside time. He knows, and has known from “eternity past,” who will exercise their free will to accept Him and who will reject Him'.
who will exercise their free will = Elect and who will reject Him = Non-elect
The article in question, was an article within which I agreed with so you can take it was from ME directly if you want to..I just thought I would give credit to he who wrote it instead of rewriting it to fit a set perspective or canned set of rules in which others would accept.
I do not care whether you accept it or not, I was writing/placing it in the light on this forum so others could see the differences in the subject we were suppose to be discussing.