I posted it because that's what I found. I haven't read Calvin's tome and I don't intend to. Is there something else that he wrote that needs to be considered? Why don't you post it?
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I posted it because that's what I found. I haven't read Calvin's tome and I don't intend to. Is there something else that he wrote that needs to be considered? Why don't you post it?
The doctrine of election can cause us to appreciate his grace all the more, knowing we never even deserved it.
Most of the pre-Augustinian fathers were not reliable on anything, they had the most extraordinary ideas. trouble is you only quote bits of them. you don't tell us what they really teach, Take Clement of Alexandria for example. He WAS a Gnostic.
Originally Posted by John146Was God's wrath ever against an elect?
Yes.
probably not.
irrelevant, separate issue.
yes, read Paul.
Hi HeRoseFromTheDea,
Just stumbling across something on the internet isn't really a good practice to learn anything. If you had actually read what calvin was talking about then you would not have used it to back up your argument. It may be a largish read but you will be suprised at how easy it is to read. I think you would like book 3. The whole thing is free to read online.
Election doesn't work this way. We are all guilty, sold under sin. We are born damned. God in his sovereign choice chooses some to save and not others based on absolutely nothing that those individuals have done. They never earned it. The conclusion is that no one would believe in God without him causing them to turn to him. Romans 3 makes it clear that not one single person is righteous and that not one single person seeks after God. Ephesians 2:8 confirms that we are saved by grace through faith and this is not of our own doing, it is the gift of God. Jesus said that all that the Father gives to him will come to him. We love him because he first loved us.
Romans 11
11 I ask, then, has God rejected his people? By no means! For I myself am an Israelite, a descendant of Abraham,[SUP][a][/SUP] a member of the tribe of Benjamin. [SUP]2 [/SUP]God has not rejected his people whom he foreknew. Do you not know what the Scripture says of Elijah, how he appeals to God against Israel? [SUP]3 [/SUP]“Lord, they have killed your prophets, they have demolished your altars, and I alone am left, and they seek my life.” [SUP]4 [/SUP]But what is God's reply to him? “I have kept for myself seven thousand men who have not bowed the knee to Baal.” [SUP]5 [/SUP]So too at the present time there is a remnant, chosen by grace. [SUP]6 [/SUP]But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works; otherwise grace would no longer be grace.
I realize the doctrines of total depravity and election are difficult for some. But Paul clearly believed we are totally depraved and the doctrine of election is clearly defined in scripture. From one nation, Israel, being elected while other nations were left without, to the New Testament elect in Christ, it is clearly there. I think people have such a difficult time grasping it because they feel they are good and righteous on their own in some way, or that God requires them to do something in order to be saved, like meet him half way. Truth is, we do nothing apart from God to earn salvation or meet him half way. It is his gift apart from what we do.
I honestly think rejection of these doctrines stems from human pride and ego. I don't mean that to put anyone down. I struggled with these doctrines myself for a long time. But if we conclude that ALL are under sin and NONE seek after God and that ALL are deserving of death, then we look to God who has decided to have mercy on many and make his grace evident to them, all for the benefit of his own glory, and we praise him for it.
Whether you believe in election or not, if you have your faith and trust in Jesus and follow him, you ARE one of the elect.
I honestly think rejection of these doctrines stems from human pride and ego. I don't mean that to put anyone down. I struggled with these doctrines myself for a long time. But if we conclude that ALL are under sin and NONE seek after God and that ALL are deserving of death, then we look to God who has decided to have mercy on many and make his grace evident to them, all for the benefit of his own glory, and we praise him for it.
Whether you believe in election or not, if you have your faith and trust in Jesus and follow him, you ARE one of the elect.
Do you think that Paul believed in the 'total depravity' of believers, i.e., unable to do good works of their own free will?
I don't have to read everything somebody writes to be able to criticize what I do read.
I don't believe you. You seem lazy to me. Always wanting find fault with what I say about Calvin, but never willing to do any work to prove me wrong.
Not sure I've ever had this question before or if I even know how to answer it. This will admittedly be a lot of conjecture on my part, but I'll try answering it.
I think after salvation it comes down to sanctification by the Spirit just like scripture teaches. Something of a synergistic effort between us and the Spirit of God that dwells in us. But the ambition and desire and ability to do good is only by the Holy Spirit's prompting. He prompts, we try to follow and obey. He, over time, conforms us to the image of Christ.
I see kind of a separation happening between our flesh and our own spirit after salvation. A sort of battle for control. I think Paul expresses this in many parts of Romans. The more we progress in our sanctification and the more we walk by the Spirit, the more we can resist the urges of the flesh, and again, only by the persuasion and power of the Holy Spirit and not an innate ability of our own. So yeah, I think Paul sees our flesh as still depraved, but we (our consciousness, our spirit, our being, who we are) is born again in the Spirit. We are in corruptible bodies until we get new ones.
Paul makes a clear distinction between our flesh and our spirits, something that is indistinct before being born again.
Not sure if any of that will make sense to anyone lol. Best way I could explain how I personally see it though.
D
DaTK
Guest
i think its easy for people to dismiss each others theology. God gave us teachers and preachers to help us. I don't know
Hi HeRoseFromTheDead,
I am not asking you to believe me. I am asking you to be more informed. I am sure tha doesn't make me lazy. I have answered any question you have asked..you dont like my answer so I cannot see what else can be done. However you have never substantiated the gnostic charge you have thrown. Which BTW is a serious charge to make against fellow believers.
"The Greek Fathers emphasized the cosmic dimension of the Fall, namely that since Adam human beings are born into a fallen world, but held fast to belief that man, though fallen, is free.[2] They thus did not teach that human beings are deprived of free will and involved in total depravity, which is one understanding of original sin.[17][18] During this period the doctrines of human depravity and the inherently sinful nature of human flesh were taught by Gnostics, and orthodox Christian writers took great pains to counter them.[19][20] Christian Apologists insisted that God's future judgment of humanity implied humanity must have the ability to live righteously.[21][22]"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Original_sin
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Original_sin
How would you contend with Romans 9? I'm just curious what your thoughts on it are.
[SUP]19 [/SUP]You will say to me then, “Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?” [SUP]20 [/SUP]But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, “Why have you made me like this?” [SUP]21 [/SUP]Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? [SUP]22 [/SUP]What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, [SUP]23 [/SUP]in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory— [SUP]24 [/SUP]even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles? [SUP]25 [/SUP]
Do you think that precludes man's free will to choose to do GOD's will? I don't.
I definatly agree with that.. But thats not what I was asking. In order for your will to be ''free'' it must be ''free'' from something. So lets make it easy what is the unregenerate mans will '''free'''from?