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did you happen to see the link Lynn provided to the ordo salutis?
regeneration IS the new birth. we were dead in trespasses and sins, and dead people can't respond to the Gospel. that's what Jesus is saying to Nicodemus in John 3 when he says unless a man is born again he cannot see the Kingdom. (let alone enter it)
Paul is also describing the ordo salutis in Romans 8.
"Notice the crucial difference in the orders of regeneration and faith. While the Reformed position believes spiritual life is a prerequisite for the existence of the other aspects of salvation, the Arminians believe that fallen, natural man retains the moral capacity to receive or reject the gospel of his own power. Even with the help of grace he still must find it within himself to believe or reject Christ. This has broad implications and raises questions like why does one man believe and not another? You might also notice that, according to Arminians, election is dependent on faith, not the other way around. This is no small matter ...understanding the biblical order, while keeping in mind its unitary process, is crucial and has a profound impact on how one views God, the gospel, and the Bible as a whole.
But how can regeneration (life) come before justification? some might ask. This is because causes and effects usually happen at the same time. God creates the world and it exists. It did not hesitate 5 seconds but sprung into existence the same moment he called it into existence. When a pool ball hits another, they touch at the same time, but only ONE is the cause of the other moving. Likewise, God breathes new life into us and we breathe. God opens our eyes and we see, He gives us a new heart and we believe. no time delay takes place. They occur simultaneously, but one actually CAUSES the other. Faith is the fruit of grace and as such we can only ascribe all glory to God."
https://www.monergism.com/topics/ordo-salutis <--- link (hope it's embedded
)
well, theologians are all about the Latin.
and nope, no "cure" for the will of God, nor do we want one.
26 I made known to them your name, and I will continue to Re: Calvinists,Im Asking...
I like to call it the Biblical Doctrine of Election, because if you think about it logically, what is being promoted by those with the opposing view is not what they say it is, here's why.
They take the word "foreknowledge" and read into it, by adding to the knowledge, a reason, that God looks down and sees that we will place your faith in Jesus, that's how God's election works or that He "foreknew", that you were going to do that. Here's what the word says.
I Peter 1:1-2 “Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to those who are elect exiles of the Dispersion in Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, 2 according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, in the sanctification of the Spirit, for obedience to Jesus Christ and for sprinkling with his blood: may grace and peace be multiplied to you.”
We are elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, in and for. Those He "foreknew" this is what He's done for those and the result.
Romans 8:29-30 “For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. 30 And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.”
29 the image of His Son, our glorified bodies or our inheritance. 30 those He predestined, showing the process on how they/we receive our inheritance, how it happens and by whom it's done.
What did they/we do to deserve this? Nothing.
Romans 9:11 “though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad—in order that God's purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of him who calls”
Why did God elect them/us? For His purpose of election to continue, because He elects.
Think about it, if the word "foreknowledge" was based on something they/we did, that's not foreknowledge, it's acknowledge, because God would be acknowledging that work of faith. That's partiality, because He's making the decision based on a quality, that they/we will posses or will not posses, which would mean it's not election, it's selection.
I'm no Greek scholar, but I'm sure there are words that can be translated, acknowledge, acknowledging or acknowledgement, instead of foreknowledge, foreknown or foreknew and a word for select, selected or selecting instead of elect, electing or election, if indeed, foreknowledge is in view of human free will and not God's will. Here's where that interpretation of foreknow(ledge) becomes a problem, Acts 2:23 and I Peter 1:2 are the same Greek word. Here's how they are used Acts 2:23 "delivered up according to the definite plan and foreknowledge of God", the Greek word "πρόγνωσι" or "prognōsis" is used with/in God's "definite plan", where in I Peter 1:2 it's used "according to the foreknowledge of God the Father". We see that Christ's crucifixion is according to the God's definite plan and His foreknowledge, with us being part of that plan and foreknowledge, it just didn't happen without, God planning it and causing it to take place. If foreknowledge is the way the posing group say it is. Then God's acknowledgement and allowed plot. Would be what it was, by their definition of foreknowledge.
Will explain how we are in that plan, with the next Greek word, "προγινώσκω" or "proginōskō" which is in, Romans 8:29 and I Peter 1:20 ESV "He was foreknown before the foundation of the world", NIV "He was chosen before the creation of the world"so Romans 8:29 could of been translated "For those He has chosen He has also predestined". God's foreknowledge and election are one in the same, there is no separation. It's predetermined by His will alone, it can't be by any outside influence or it would no longer be foreknowledge or election, if it's based on their/our foreseen faith, it would be acknowledge and selection. Notice Christ's foreknow/chosen before the foundations of the world? So are we, Ephesians 1:4-5 "even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love5 he predestined us for adoption to himself as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will," This passage of Scriptures brings Romans 8:29-30 and I Peter 1:1-2 together.
The interesting part in that definite plan and foreknowledge, are those that will be saved. John 10:14-15 "I am the good shepherd. I know my own and my own know me,15 just as the Father knows me and I know the Father; and I lay down my life for the sheep." The Greek word for "know" here is, "γινώσκω" or "ginōskō" while "προγινώσκω" or "proginōskō" both coming for form the Hebrew root word "יָדַ֖ע" or "ya·da" "had relations" from Genesis 4:1, 25. Yup for those that can remember, Jerry Seinfeld "yada yada yada, now I understand what they were saying, you know you know you know. Jesus is wilfully laying down his life for the sheep.
Notice Jesus calls us sheep, He did not say, the goat that will become sheep, no. We are His people which have been predetermined by the Father's foreknowledge/election before the foundation of the world. He is not laying down His life for the world/goats. Listen to His High Priestly prayer in John 17:6-26 “I have manifested your name to the people whom you gave me out of the world....9 I am praying for them. I am not praying for the world but for those whom you have given me, for they are yours....15 I do not ask that you take them out of the world, but that you keep them from the evil one....17 Sanctify them in the truth; your word is truth....19 And for their sake I consecrate myself, that they also may be sanctified in truth....“I do not ask for these only, but also for those who will believe in me through their word,21 that they may all be one, just as you, Father, are in me, and I in you, that they also may be in us, so that the world may believe that you have sent me....26 I made known to them your name, and I will continue to make it known, that the love with which you have loved me may be in them, and I in them.”
Notice He did not pray that the world would be part of them/us or that they would become sheep, all He asked the Father was that through them/us that the world would believe that the Father sent Him. The sheep are in God's definite plan and foreknowledge for Christ's death and resurrection.
All that to say this people can throw all the Scriptures they want at you and they can give you books to read and you can read them, but the only way it's going to become a reality for you, is if God shows you. I read books on Reformed/Calvinist doctrine, I couldn't see it. I debated and defended what I believed, at first I believed that you could lose your salvation. Then after some study I realized I could if my salvation was based on works and not on faith alone, so I got over that hurdle. Then in my quest, I was recommended two books, Life in the Son and Elect in the Son, both by Robert Shank. His take was that as long as yu abided in the vine you had everlasting life, not like Guy Duffield who wrote a book "If Ye Continue", who said if you continue you have everlasting life. Which I believed for a while, then like I said. came to the conclusion that if there is something you can do to keep your salvation, then there has to be something that you have to do to get your salvation, so I dropped that idea.
Elect in the Son, taught that we are elect in the since that Christ is elect before the foundation of the world. That was my view for many year, until I was taught about the Law in the 10 Commandments. Which was very interesting, because there were well over 200 of us listening to the same teaching and some came away saying it was teaching legalism, others no that it was just for evangelism, where I was. It is useful in evangelism as I found out, then I decided I needed to do a study on the Commandments and the sin of man, I realized the weight of sin. Which lead me to a study on, The Beauty of God's Holiness. The I got to the part about His righteous judgement and holy wrath, I got a sense of fear came on me and I realized that me sin could keep me from God if He did not intervene. I ask for His mercy and felt a sense of freedom, that made me realize that the doctrine of Grace were Biblical and have bevies in them ever since.
God Bless Brother.
My Brother, by this, it shows you are more mature than a lot of people here, that say things simply to get a rise out of someone, that holds to the Doctrines of Grace. Luther/Calvin did not speak English so they would not have come up with this. It's a English acronym for doctrines that are in the Bible.
I like to call it the Biblical Doctrine of Election, because if you think about it logically, what is being promoted by those with the opposing view is not what they say it is, here's why.
They take the word "foreknowledge" and read into it, by adding to the knowledge, a reason, that God looks down and sees that we will place your faith in Jesus, that's how God's election works or that He "foreknew", that you were going to do that. Here's what the word says.
I Peter 1:1-2 “Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to those who are elect exiles of the Dispersion in Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, 2 according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, in the sanctification of the Spirit, for obedience to Jesus Christ and for sprinkling with his blood: may grace and peace be multiplied to you.”
We are elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, in and for. Those He "foreknew" this is what He's done for those and the result.
Romans 8:29-30 “For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. 30 And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.”
29 the image of His Son, our glorified bodies or our inheritance. 30 those He predestined, showing the process on how they/we receive our inheritance, how it happens and by whom it's done.
What did they/we do to deserve this? Nothing.
Romans 9:11 “though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad—in order that God's purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of him who calls”
Why did God elect them/us? For His purpose of election to continue, because He elects.
Think about it, if the word "foreknowledge" was based on something they/we did, that's not foreknowledge, it's acknowledge, because God would be acknowledging that work of faith. That's partiality, because He's making the decision based on a quality, that they/we will posses or will not posses, which would mean it's not election, it's selection.
I'm no Greek scholar, but I'm sure there are words that can be translated, acknowledge, acknowledging or acknowledgement, instead of foreknowledge, foreknown or foreknew and a word for select, selected or selecting instead of elect, electing or election, if indeed, foreknowledge is in view of human free will and not God's will. Here's where that interpretation of foreknow(ledge) becomes a problem, Acts 2:23 and I Peter 1:2 are the same Greek word. Here's how they are used Acts 2:23 "delivered up according to the definite plan and foreknowledge of God", the Greek word "πρόγνωσι" or "prognōsis" is used with/in God's "definite plan", where in I Peter 1:2 it's used "according to the foreknowledge of God the Father". We see that Christ's crucifixion is according to the God's definite plan and His foreknowledge, with us being part of that plan and foreknowledge, it just didn't happen without, God planning it and causing it to take place. If foreknowledge is the way the posing group say it is. Then God's acknowledgement and allowed plot. Would be what it was, by their definition of foreknowledge.
Will explain how we are in that plan, with the next Greek word, "προγινώσκω" or "proginōskō" which is in, Romans 8:29 and I Peter 1:20 ESV "He was foreknown before the foundation of the world", NIV "He was chosen before the creation of the world"so Romans 8:29 could of been translated "For those He has chosen He has also predestined". God's foreknowledge and election are one in the same, there is no separation. It's predetermined by His will alone, it can't be by any outside influence or it would no longer be foreknowledge or election, if it's based on their/our foreseen faith, it would be acknowledge and selection. Notice Christ's foreknow/chosen before the foundations of the world? So are we, Ephesians 1:4-5 "even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love5 he predestined us for adoption to himself as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will," This passage of Scriptures brings Romans 8:29-30 and I Peter 1:1-2 together.
The interesting part in that definite plan and foreknowledge, are those that will be saved. John 10:14-15 "I am the good shepherd. I know my own and my own know me,15 just as the Father knows me and I know the Father; and I lay down my life for the sheep." The Greek word for "know" here is, "γινώσκω" or "ginōskō" while "προγινώσκω" or "proginōskō" both coming for form the Hebrew root word "יָדַ֖ע" or "ya·da" "had relations" from Genesis 4:1, 25. Yup for those that can remember, Jerry Seinfeld "yada yada yada, now I understand what they were saying, you know you know you know. Jesus is wilfully laying down his life for the sheep.
Notice Jesus calls us sheep, He did not say, the goat that will become sheep, no. We are His people which have been predetermined by the Father's foreknowledge/election before the foundation of the world. He is not laying down His life for the world/goats. Listen to His High Priestly prayer in John 17:6-26 “I have manifested your name to the people whom you gave me out of the world....9 I am praying for them. I am not praying for the world but for those whom you have given me, for they are yours....15 I do not ask that you take them out of the world, but that you keep them from the evil one....17 Sanctify them in the truth; your word is truth....19 And for their sake I consecrate myself, that they also may be sanctified in truth....“I do not ask for these only, but also for those who will believe in me through their word,21 that they may all be one, just as you, Father, are in me, and I in you, that they also may be in us, so that the world may believe that you have sent me....26 I made known to them your name, and I will continue to make it known, that the love with which you have loved me may be in them, and I in them.”
Notice He did not pray that the world would be part of them/us or that they would become sheep, all He asked the Father was that through them/us that the world would believe that the Father sent Him. The sheep are in God's definite plan and foreknowledge for Christ's death and resurrection.
All that to say this people can throw all the Scriptures they want at you and they can give you books to read and you can read them, but the only way it's going to become a reality for you, is if God shows you. I read books on Reformed/Calvinist doctrine, I couldn't see it. I debated and defended what I believed, at first I believed that you could lose your salvation. Then after some study I realized I could if my salvation was based on works and not on faith alone, so I got over that hurdle. Then in my quest, I was recommended two books, Life in the Son and Elect in the Son, both by Robert Shank. His take was that as long as yu abided in the vine you had everlasting life, not like Guy Duffield who wrote a book "If Ye Continue", who said if you continue you have everlasting life. Which I believed for a while, then like I said. came to the conclusion that if there is something you can do to keep your salvation, then there has to be something that you have to do to get your salvation, so I dropped that idea.
Elect in the Son, taught that we are elect in the since that Christ is elect before the foundation of the world. That was my view for many year, until I was taught about the Law in the 10 Commandments. Which was very interesting, because there were well over 200 of us listening to the same teaching and some came away saying it was teaching legalism, others no that it was just for evangelism, where I was. It is useful in evangelism as I found out, then I decided I needed to do a study on the Commandments and the sin of man, I realized the weight of sin. Which lead me to a study on, The Beauty of God's Holiness. The I got to the part about His righteous judgement and holy wrath, I got a sense of fear came on me and I realized that me sin could keep me from God if He did not intervene. I ask for His mercy and felt a sense of freedom, that made me realize that the doctrine of Grace were Biblical and have bevies in them ever since.
God Bless Brother.
A
Ariel82
Guest
did you happen to see the link Lynn provided to the ordo salutis?
regeneration IS the new birth. we were dead in trespasses and sins, and dead people can't respond to the Gospel. that's what Jesus is saying to Nicodemus in John 3 when he says unless a man is born again he cannot see the Kingdom. (let alone enter it)
Paul is also describing the ordo salutis in Romans 8.
"Notice the crucial difference in the orders of regeneration and faith. While the Reformed position believes spiritual life is a prerequisite for the existence of the other aspects of salvation, the Arminians believe that fallen, natural man retains the moral capacity to receive or reject the gospel of his own power. Even with the help of grace he still must find it within himself to believe or reject Christ. This has broad implications and raises questions like why does one man believe and not another? You might also notice that, according to Arminians, election is dependent on faith, not the other way around. This is no small matter ...understanding the biblical order, while keeping in mind its unitary process, is crucial and has a profound impact on how one views God, the gospel, and the Bible as a whole.
But how can regeneration (life) come before justification? some might ask. This is because causes and effects usually happen at the same time. God creates the world and it exists. It did not hesitate 5 seconds but sprung into existence the same moment he called it into existence. When a pool ball hits another, they touch at the same time, but only ONE is the cause of the other moving. Likewise, God breathes new life into us and we breathe. God opens our eyes and we see, He gives us a new heart and we believe. no time delay takes place. They occur simultaneously, but one actually CAUSES the other. Faith is the fruit of grace and as such we can only ascribe all glory to God."
https://www.monergism.com/topics/ordo-salutis <--- link (hope it's embedded
No didn't see that link.
It's pretty easy to see that faith is a gift of God. The question of why does one person believe and another one doesn't? God works in their lives to bring about a humble and contrite heart that is good soil for the Seed to grow into faith in Jesus finished work alone.
Perhaps in some people the process of regeneration equals new birth and automatic faith in the gospel.
I always believed that the point a person is born again is when they receive the Holy Spirit and that only happens AFTER the confession of faith in Jesus from the heart by the mouth. Its a work of God to get a person to that point,but I don't believe a person can be truly called Christian without the Confession of faith and seal of the Holy Spirit. Before that point, I believe they can fall away because they don't acknowledge having a personal intimate relationship with God. The worries of the world or temptation of riches, or Satan can steal all thoughts of God and their need for a Savior from their mind.
I still have a hard time accepting that regeneration means rebirth or to be born again.
I see it as when God restore the natural state of Adam before the fall to mankind. That God freed everyone from the curse of Adam's sin, and gave them the Law. However like Adam, we all fail in keeping it fully. Therefore it's not Adam's sin that condemns us, but our own,
By God's grace He gives us a Savior, if we but believe He can wash us clean.
God gives us the faith by His grace to believe and I don't believe He gives this faith to everyone. He gives the gospel to everyone but only those who have good soil will grow faith that causes confession that causes the Holy Spirit to come and make people born again children of God. God makes the good soil by showing us the rocks and thorns in our hearts and mind through the Law and our inability to keep it and our life circumstances.
****
So the concept that people are born again before confessing faith in Jesus seems to me to be at odds with scripture.
I will have to go back and re-read them.
Ro 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
I have always understood it to be confessing Jesus not confessing faith.
For the cause of Christ
Roger
It's obvious from scripture that faith comes when we hear of Christ Himself. Perhaps the reason some respond is because of the condition of their hearts ( the soils ) or it can also depend on "what is exactly being said too".
The gospel which is the message of Christ Himself supplies the faith that grace has already made available to us all.
Romans 10:16-18 (NASB)
[SUP]16 [/SUP] However, they did not all heed the good news; for Isaiah says, "LORD, WHO HAS BELIEVED OUR REPORT?"
[SUP]17 [/SUP] So faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ.
[SUP]18 [/SUP] But I say, surely they have never heard, have they? Indeed they have; "THEIR VOICE HAS GONE OUT INTO ALL THE EARTH, AND THEIR WORDS TO THE ENDS OF THE WORLD."
It is always the accurate hearing of Christ Himself that brings faith to those who choose to act on it.
Here is a prime example of someone who "heard of Jesus" and then acted on what was heard. The woman with the issue of blood. Jesus didn't even know that her faith which "came from the hearing of Jesus" had drawn power out of Him for healing her.
Mark 5:27-28 (KJV)
[SUP]27 [/SUP] When she had heard of Jesus, came in the press behind, and touched his garment.
[SUP]28 [/SUP] For she said, If I may touch but his clothes, I shall be whole.
This is why the accurate message of Christ Himself needs to be spoken out boldly so that by the accurate hearing of Him - will supply the faith needed to receive what He has already provided for all in the world because of the abundance of grace and His love and mercy to all man-kind.
Romans 10:12-14 (KJV)
[SUP]12 [/SUP] For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek:for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.
[SUP]13 [/SUP] For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
[SUP]14 [/SUP] How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
The gospel which is the message of Christ Himself supplies the faith that grace has already made available to us all.
Romans 10:16-18 (NASB)
[SUP]16 [/SUP] However, they did not all heed the good news; for Isaiah says, "LORD, WHO HAS BELIEVED OUR REPORT?"
[SUP]17 [/SUP] So faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ.
[SUP]18 [/SUP] But I say, surely they have never heard, have they? Indeed they have; "THEIR VOICE HAS GONE OUT INTO ALL THE EARTH, AND THEIR WORDS TO THE ENDS OF THE WORLD."
It is always the accurate hearing of Christ Himself that brings faith to those who choose to act on it.
Here is a prime example of someone who "heard of Jesus" and then acted on what was heard. The woman with the issue of blood. Jesus didn't even know that her faith which "came from the hearing of Jesus" had drawn power out of Him for healing her.
Mark 5:27-28 (KJV)
[SUP]27 [/SUP] When she had heard of Jesus, came in the press behind, and touched his garment.
[SUP]28 [/SUP] For she said, If I may touch but his clothes, I shall be whole.
This is why the accurate message of Christ Himself needs to be spoken out boldly so that by the accurate hearing of Him - will supply the faith needed to receive what He has already provided for all in the world because of the abundance of grace and His love and mercy to all man-kind.
Romans 10:12-14 (KJV)
[SUP]12 [/SUP] For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek:for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.
[SUP]13 [/SUP] For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
[SUP]14 [/SUP] How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
K
kaylagrl
Guest
A
Ariel82
Guest
What one believes in ones heart is faith.
Demons called Jesus the chosen one of God but they had no saving faith within their hearts.
It is good to note that the Bible stress the ressurection versus just the crucifixion in that verse.
A
Ariel82
Guest
I came in late to this thread. Where is the article and I'll read it...thanks..
I do know one thing for sure - none of us have all the truth in any subject. I like what Paul said "Those who think they know something - don't know it as they ought to."
Personally I believe we have barely scratched the surface of what Christ has done for us nor do we really know the love of the Father as He truly has for us. But He is changing all of that!...
A
Ariel82
Guest
G777, doesn't God have to give them faith before they can choose to act upon it?
Are you saying folks aren't saved because we aren't speaking the message accurately?
Because if folks hear it right, then faith with automatically given to them?
Why do people have different type of heart soil?
*****
Wait you're not a Calvinist, should we move this to another, thread Kayla?
Are you saying folks aren't saved because we aren't speaking the message accurately?
Because if folks hear it right, then faith with automatically given to them?
Why do people have different type of heart soil?
*****
Wait you're not a Calvinist, should we move this to another, thread Kayla?
Where does faith come from?
Rom 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
Produced by the Holy Spirit.
John 16:7 ¶ Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.
8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:
9 Of sin, because they believe not on me;
10 Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more;
11 Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged.
What is faith?
Heb 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen
For the cause of Christ
Roger
I'm not sure what a Calvinists is - so I'll wait to see if the questions need a new thread from Kayla.
I know one thing - I don't have all the answers. I may have an opinion on some things but whether they are accurate or not - I'll find out in the future. I love repenting when the Lord shows me things.
K
kaylagrl
Guest
Yes,I did ask
There are similar things both sides believe.It Wesley and Whitefield could have different views and remain friends for life,why so much anger here? Obviously they saw they had enough in common belief not to condemn the other to hell. So.... Why so much animosity between the two sides here?
according to calvinism God always fulfills His will right??? and what is His will its that 1 timothy 2:4 who desires all men to be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth... so will He get that?
K
kaylagrl
Guest
I dont know,it looks like the Calvinists have left.I tried to keep the thread peaceful,told people to put trouble makers on ignore but I see all people posting in other threads.Im starting to wonder if there wasn't enough fighting and name calling in the thread to keep it interesting. I was asking and getting answers and I guess that was too boring for people.
K
kaylagrl
Guest
Re-posting...
So Im going to ask you all to check out the link. Its about Wesley and its pretty much what I believe. But I wanted to know what differences we have as you read the few points made.Dont you think we are all closer to the same belief than we think?
https://jamespedlar.wordpress.com/2012/02/16/john-wesley-on-predestination/
So Im going to ask you all to check out the link. Its about Wesley and its pretty much what I believe. But I wanted to know what differences we have as you read the few points made.Dont you think we are all closer to the same belief than we think?
https://jamespedlar.wordpress.com/2012/02/16/john-wesley-on-predestination/