Can a christian lose their salvation

[KennethC]

Falling away, departing from the faith, not continuing in the faith

These are all mentioned throughout the NT in its teachings that they do and will take place, if you deny these teachings then you are denying what is said in the Word of God.

The issue with this is those who do one of these 3 are rejecting Christ, therefore if you state that people who do any of these are still saved then you place those who reject Christ as saved.

If we are going to go that route then we might as well place all unbelievers as saved as well, because if one set of people that reject Christ can get salvation then all people that reject Him can get salvation.

You see now how nonsense it is to place the fallen as saved !!!

Only if they are returned/restored to the faith will their salvation in Christ be assured !!!

 

[crossnote]

Ephesians 4:30 (NASB)
[SUP]30 [/SUP] Do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.

were sealed = aorist tense passive voice

Aorist = past tense = done deal in the past.

Passive = something being acted upon you- you are not doing it.

We have nothing to do with us being "sealed" in the Holy Spirit....it is all Him!

The Aorist Tense is used for simple, undefined action. In the indicative mood, the aorist tense can indicate punctiliar action (action that happens at a specific point in time) in the past. It must be distinguished from the Imperfect Tense which denotes continuous action in the past. With few exceptions, whenever the aorist tense is used in any mood other than the indicative, the verb does not have any temporal significance. In other words, it refers only to the reality of an event or action, not to the time when it took place. (CWSB)

 

[Utah]

Falling away, departing from the faith, not continuing in the faith

These are all mentioned throughout the NT in its teachings that they do and will take place, if you deny these teachings then you are denying what is said in the Word of God.

The issue with this is those who do one of these 3 are rejecting Christ, therefore if you state that people who do any of these are still saved then you place those who reject Christ as saved.

If we are going to go that route then we might as well place all unbelievers as saved as well, because if one set of people that reject Christ can get salvation then all people that reject Him can get salvation.

You see now how nonsense it is to place the fallen as saved !!!

Only if they are returned/restored to the faith will their salvation in Christ be assured !!!

The people you describe are not losing their salvation, they're renouncing it. Big difference.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

We are not connecting, I'm not trying to bash you. God did not take it way from Israel (He took it away from the religious rulers of Israel who was of their father the devil).

Yes he did take it away from Isreal. Israel has not been a major player or representative of God since AD 70

True Israel still has it, believing Israel still has it, those in Christ are the Israel of God. The nation of Israel was but a type of Christ and His corporate body. Did not God say to Pharaoh that Israel was His son, His first born? Did not the New Testament make it clear that Jesus is also called God's son and first born? Was not Israel called out of Egypt in it's infancy as later was Jesus? The nation of Israel is a type, the anti-type is Christ and His corporate body. God took the type/example away since Christ fulfilled it all.

The term Israel could mean several things, Israel the nation, Israel the land, Israel the people of God. Perhaps this is what is confusing.

I don't know what to say EG, I love you too bro...and all the others who don't understand or see the things the way I see them. And I still reserve the right to be wrong.

Your still talking about salvation.

Again, That's why we disagree. our context is at odds. Its never been about salvation. Paul made that clear in chapter 9.

 

[Grace777x70]

Yep...it is in the indicative mood in Eph 4:30

The Aorist Tense is used for simple, undefined action. In the indicative mood, the aorist tense can indicate punctiliar action (action that happens at a specific point in time) in the past. It must be distinguished from the Imperfect Tense which denotes continuous action in the past. With few exceptions, whenever the aorist tense is used in any mood other than the indicative, the verb does not have any temporal significance. In other words, it refers only to the reality of an event or action, not to the time when it took place. (CWSB)

 

[Bookends]

The same way Abraham and the Old Testament saints were saved.

Was there a separate means of salvation for them?

OT saints looked forward to Christ (even though the picture was fuzzy), and we look back to Christ. Both ways involve faith. We have more light because we have both old and new testaments so we can see clearly what God has done. I suppose we will be held more accountable as well. The central point is Christ and His death and resurrection. The blood of Christ overs those back in time to those who trusted and believed God.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

The Aorist Tense is used for simple, undefined action. In the indicative mood, the aorist tense can indicate punctiliar action (action that happens at a specific point in time) in the past. It must be distinguished from the Imperfect Tense which denotes continuous action in the past. With few exceptions, whenever the aorist tense is used in any mood other than the indicative, the verb does not have any temporal significance. In other words, it refers only to the reality of an event or action, not to the time when it took place. (CWSB)

The word aorist means without horizon, or indefinite (past-future, timeless).

 

[KennethC]

The people you describe are not losing their salvation, they're renouncing it. Big difference.

Way to play semantic's Utah, as either way you state it they do not end up with eternal life unless you place those who reject Christ as saved ???

 

[Bookends]

Yes he did take it away from Isreal. Israel has not been a major player or representative of God since AD 70



Your still talking about salvation.

Again, That's why we disagree. our context is at odds. Its never been about salvation. Paul made that clear in chapter 9.

Ok EG...Love ya bro...God bless you and Happy New...

Lets not be like this...

or

or

 

[Utah]

Way to play semantic's Utah, as either way you state it they do not end up with eternal life unless you place those who reject Christ as saved ???

Losing something and throwing something away is not semantics. People don't lose their salvation but they can definitely tell God they no longer want it in which case they will not have it.

 

[crossnote]

Yep...it is in the indicative mood in Eph 4:30

I was just giving a corrective to this of yours...

Aorist = past tense = done deal in the past.

rather it is a simple undefined action in the past. You defined the Perfect past tense.

 

[peacefulbeliever]

Wrong, Hebrews 6 speaks on those who once partook of the receiving of the Holy Spirit that then turned away from God and left the faith.

You get rid of it by if you place your faith and trust in your worldly possessions and life, rather then keep it focused solely on Jesus and His ways.

Wrong . . . the thing is once we are born again we sometimes do tend to trust in our worldly possessions and get wrapped up in our lives rather than being solely focused on Jesus and his ways - but I have found that even if I do these things at times - I have never lost my faith in Christ. I cannot build my foundation on anything but Christ and I am sealed with the mark of the Holy Spirit until the day of redemption (can't get away from that promise!). If I taste something - I have just taken a bite and not fully enjoyed what I have eaten - that is tasting the heavenly gift and sharing in the Holy Spirit - I have just tasted NOT digested and if I fall away from that - I haven't really fallen away from anything that took precedence in my life nor that I had a relationship with and really all the verse is saying is that IF I fall away there is no more sacrifice for sin because Jesus Christ died for sin ONCE and He cannot be crucified again. This really does not say anyone is in danger of renouncing Christ - 6:9 Even though we speak like this, dear friends, we are confident of better things in your case (believers that have tasted, digested, and have formed a relationship)-- things that accompany salvation.

Again nowhere in the bible is there a teaching that we do nothing, and I am going to do some research in that in my next in depth study session to see when that started to be taught.

Where did anyone say that "we do nothing"? Our WALK follows salvation because we cannot even begin to walk without the partaking of the divine nature - salvation is a free gift given through "birth" by grace through faith in Jesus Christ. Either we are born again of incorruptible seed or we are not - simple as that.

Right now I am into prophecy learning, but I will get to that to because I see this mentioned a lot that Christ did it all and we do nothing. There is nothing in Jesus, Paul, James, or John's writings that would suggest that.

As for as salvation goes - YES, Jesus says eternal life is given by believing in the only begotten Son (John 3:16) which is being born of the Spirit, i.e. Flesh gives birth to flesh (corruptible) Spirit gives birth to spirit (incorruptible) (John 3:6) Paul says that righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. (Rom. 3:22a) and also says that God presented Jesus Christ as a sacrifice of atonement through faith in his blood - that is salvation. What we are transformed into by renewing our minds, putting off the old man and putting on the new man, etc. is our walk and it is a daily walk. Thank God his mercies are new each morning for we need that!

That would place the Holy Spirit as a puppet master and not the helper that He is, and Jesus said He is our helper.......

Helper means we still play a part in God's plan too !!!

Denying the Holy Spirit is blasphemy, how can a unbeliever who does not have the Holy Spirit commit this sin ???

The holy spirit helps us in our walk as was mentioned before - we are born again with holy Spirit (divine nature) and that is our present help when we are having trouble - AFTER salvation - AFTER we are born again and have received holy Spirit. We have nothing to do with God's plan for salvation - He worked that out with giving His Son to die upon the cross to redeem us - to purchase us - to wash us - to enable us to become sons of God - all we did was believe on Jesus Christ and HIS sacrifice.

Wow - that came out of left field - Who has denied the Holy Spirit? Therefore I tell you that no one who is speaking by the Spirit of God says, "Jesus be cursed," and no one can say, "Jesus is Lord," except by the Holy Spirit . . . .

 

[KennethC]

Losing something and throwing something away is not semantics. People don't lose their salvation but they can definitely tell God they no longer want it in which case they will not have it.

It is playing semantics because lets put it this way, and I know you won't but this is just an example.


Say you Utah have been walking with the Lord for 20 years, and something so bad happens in your life that you stop putting your faith and trust in the Lord because you can not believe any longer that if He existed He would let that happen.
You live out the rest of your life in this unbelieving state !!!

You once had salvation in your hands but now you do not, did you not just lose your standing in Christ to receive salvation by throwing it away ???

Yes you did, and this situation is not a hypothetical one as it has and does happen with people....

When ministering to people going through hardships as one does like I have in doing prison ministry you see these attitudes a lot in those in prison as well as their family members. They have gone so far they have given up all hope and trust in the Lord. They have to be restored before it is to late for them, and that is why we are called to be overseers of the rest of the flock.

I thank God He put me in this situation to serve His will, because without facing and talking to these people personally I would not have learned how to show mercy and to remove the unforgiving part inside of me !!!

 

[Utah]

It is playing semantics because lets put it this way, and I know you won't but this is just an example.

Say you Utah have been walking with the Lord for 20 years, and something so bad happens in your life that you stop putting your faith and trust in the Lord because you can not believe any longer that if He existed He would let that happen.
You live out the rest of your life in this unbelieving state !!!

You once had salvation in your hands but now you do not, did you not just lose your standing in Christ to receive salvation by throwing it away ???

Such a person doesn't LOSE their salvation, you damn ape, they threw it away. If they no longer have it its because they no longer wanted it and God will abide by their wishes!

 

[KennethC]

Wrong . . . the thing is once we are born again we sometimes do tend to trust in our worldly possessions and get wrapped up in our lives rather than being solely focused on Jesus and his ways - but I have found that even if I do these things at times - I have never lost my faith in Christ. I cannot build my foundation on anything but Christ and I am sealed with the mark of the Holy Spirit until the day of redemption (can't get away from that promise!). If I taste something - I have just taken a bite and not fully enjoyed what I have eaten - that is tasting the heavenly gift and sharing in the Holy Spirit - I have just tasted NOT digested and if I fall away from that - I haven't really fallen away from anything that took precedence in my life nor that I had a relationship with and really all the verse is saying is that IF I fall away there is no more sacrifice for sin because Jesus Christ died for sin ONCE and He cannot be crucified again. This really does not say anyone is in danger of renouncing Christ - 6:9 Even though we speak like this, dear friends, we are confident of better things in your case (believers that have tasted, digested, and have formed a relationship)-- things that accompany salvation.

Where did anyone say that "we do nothing"? Our WALK follows salvation because we cannot even begin to walk without the partaking of the divine nature - salvation is a free gift given through "birth" by grace through faith in Jesus Christ. Either we are born again of incorruptible seed or we are not - simple as that.

As for as salvation goes - YES, Jesus says eternal life is given by believing in the only begotten Son (John 3:16) which is being born of the Spirit, i.e. Flesh gives birth to flesh (corruptible) Spirit gives birth to spirit (incorruptible) (John 3:6) Paul says that righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. (Rom. 3:22a) and also says that God presented Jesus Christ as a sacrifice of atonement through faith in his blood - that is salvation. What we are transformed into by renewing our minds, putting off the old man and putting on the new man, etc. is our walk and it is a daily walk. Thank God his mercies are new each morning for we need that!

The holy spirit helps us in our walk as was mentioned before - we are born again with holy Spirit (divine nature) and that is our present help when we are having trouble - AFTER salvation - AFTER we are born again and have received holy Spirit. We have nothing to do with God's plan for salvation - He worked that out with giving His Son to die upon the cross to redeem us - to purchase us - to wash us - to enable us to become sons of God - all we did was believe on Jesus Christ and HIS sacrifice.

Wow - that came out of left field - Who has denied the Holy Spirit? Therefore I tell you that no one who is speaking by the Spirit of God says, "Jesus be cursed," and no one can say, "Jesus is Lord," except by the Holy Spirit . . . .

That here is where this is wrong, as the walk does not follow salvation, it is part of the salvation process through Christ.

This is the first thing we need to get around because even Paul mentions the gospel of Christ in the way of running a race..

This is one of those issues because in turn it tries to separate the walk from the faith itself when they go hand and hand, they are not separate of one another. It all works together for God's will !!!

Hebrews 6 does say they partook of the Holy Spirit, and is not referring to unbelievers or only Jews...........

It says these that partook of the Holy Spirit fell away and they could not be brought back to repentance because they refused to give up their sinful ways. This thus tramples on the Son of God by keeping Him on that cross......

Christ is no longer on the cross, He is a risen Lord and we are to walk as we are risen with Him. To not walk in the risen new nature but continue in the old nature carries a dangerous ending result.

When people fall away the bible clearly states they have to "return" or be "restored" to the Lord to receive salvation.

Return and restored means they had to be in the faith before at one time, not coming to it the first time !!!

Then you bring up the scripture of nobody can call Jesus Lord except by the Holy Spirit, that means only believers can call Him Lord because unbelievers don't have the Holy Spirit.

Question to you: What do the goats in Matthew 25 call Jesus ???

 

[peacefulbeliever]

Falling away, departing from the faith, not continuing in the faith

These are all mentioned throughout the NT in its teachings that they do and will take place, if you deny these teachings then you are denying what is said in the Word of God.

The issue with this is those who do one of these 3 are rejecting Christ, therefore if you state that people who do any of these are still saved then you place those who reject Christ as saved.

If we are going to go that route then we might as well place all unbelievers as saved as well, because if one set of people that reject Christ can get salvation then all people that reject Him can get salvation.

You see now how nonsense it is to place the fallen as saved !!!

Only if they are returned/restored to the faith will their salvation in Christ be assured !!!

When we are born again of the Spirit - we have not rejected Christ because the Spirit is born within us and that Spirit is incorruptible - is that not correct according to scripture? We are sealed until the day of redemption - is that not correct?
Does God remove that "birth" each time we mess up because when we mess up we are basically falling away, departing from the faith, and not continuing in the faith - (out of fellowship with the Father and the Son)? How many times do we have to mess up before he will not "reborn" us again? And is it possible to be born again again? And when we mess up are we actually rejecting Christ since we have already believed and been born again?

AN UNBELIEVER HAS NEVER CONFESSED JESUS CHRIST AS LORD . . . . so NO they do not have salvation!

So if a born again Christian messes up and maybe stays in that state for, let's say, 3 years - has he lost his salvation? If he were to die would he go to the White Throne Judgment for judgment and possibly judged to the "second death" the same as an unbeliever or would he go before the bema and be judged by things he has done in his body while on earth either good or bad? Does God pull out that "new creation" - create it again (give birth to it again) - then pull it out - then create again - then pull it out - over and over and over again?

 

[KennethC]

Such a person doesn't LOSE their salvation, you damn ape, they threw it away. If they no longer have it its because they no longer wanted it and God will abide by their wishes!

You do know that cussing is not the fruit of the Spirit, nor is name calling to belittle a person ???

It they throw it away they have lost their chance at it, because it was theirs as long as they continued in the faith.

Calm down do not let anger control your motives and speech !!!

 

[KennethC]

When we are born again of the Spirit - we have not rejected Christ because the Spirit is born within us and that Spirit is incorruptible - is that not correct according to scripture? We are sealed until the day of redemption - is that not correct?
Does God remove that "birth" each time we mess up because when we mess up we are basically falling away, departing from the faith, and not continuing in the faith - (out of fellowship with the Father and the Son)? How many times do we have to mess up before he will not "reborn" us again? And is it possible to be born again again? And when we mess up are we actually rejecting Christ since we have already believed and been born again?

AN UNBELIEVER HAS NEVER CONFESSED JESUS CHRIST AS LORD . . . . so NO they do not have salvation!

So if a born again Christian messes up and maybe stays in that state for, let's say, 3 years - has he lost his salvation? If he were to die would he go to the White Throne Judgment for judgment and possibly judged to the "second death" the same as an unbeliever or would he go before the bema and be judged by things he has done in his body while on earth either good or bad? Does God pull out that "new creation" - create it again (give birth to it again) - then pull it out - then create again - then pull it out - over and over and over again?

Falling away, departing from the faith, or not continuing in the faith is not speaking of unbelievers...........

Unbelievers can not depart from or stop continuing in a faith they were never a part of !!!

Those many scriptures are speaking of believers who have fallen away from the faith back to unbelief, as most of Paul's warnings were to believers !!!

 

[blondieindahouse]

Such a person doesn't LOSE their salvation, you damn ape, they threw it away. If they no longer have it its because they no longer wanted it and God will abide by their wishes!

Ephesians 4:29 Let no corrupt communication proceed out of your mouth, but that which is good to the use of edifying, that it may minister grace to the hearers.

 

[peacefulbeliever]

That here is where this is wrong, as the walk does not follow salvation, it is part of the salvation process through Christ.

Salvation is not a process - it is given upon faith in Jesus Christ - done deal. Sanctification is the process by which we are transformed from glory to glory. I am seated in heavenly places in Christ - I am sealed (marked by God) with the holy Spirit until Christ's comes for his purchased possessions - I am called a child of God NOW and when Christ appears I shall be like him because I will see him as he is.

This is the first thing we need to get around because even Paul mentions the gospel of Christ in the way of running a race..

Running the race is a result of my salvation - My salvation is a gift from God because of my faith in his Son. Now, I have the "new creation" in me to enable me to RUN in the race.

This is one of those issues because in turn it tries to separate the walk from the faith itself when they go hand and hand, they are not separate of one another. It all works together for God's will !!!

My salvation is not dependent upon my walk - if that were the case then when I sin (as I do from time to time) - I lose my salvation - What do I do? I ask forgiveness and restore my fellowship - my companionship - my relationship = my FULL sharing with the Father and the Son and begin my walk again - NOT my salvation - I am a son and will remain a son.

Hebrews 6 does say they partook of the Holy Spirit, and is not referring to unbelievers or only Jews...........

It says these that partook of the Holy Spirit fell away and they could not be brought back to repentance because they refused to give up their sinful ways. This thus tramples on the Son of God by keeping Him on that cross......

I am going to go ahead and say it - I don't have FULL understanding in everything but I understand CLEAR verses regarding my sonship and how being born again placed me as a son in the household of God, placed me as a member in the body of Christ - HE needs me in that body even if I am only an eye, or an ear . . . A lot of what I said concerning Hebrews 6 was paraphrased from the NIV Study Bible Commentary - and it made a lot of sense TO ME regardless if it does to you. Kenneth - don't be so sure on some of your understandings because when you say what you say you are, in effect, saying that God lied when he told us we are sons of God NOW, that we are born of incorruptible seed - which means that that new creation inside you cannot be corrupted - and when he told us we were seated in heavenly places (past tense for emphasis) - when he told us that we have an inheritance that is imperishable, undefiled, and unfading KEPT in heaven for us WHO ARE BEING GUARDED by GOD'S POWER - Because those things are true also and they are just the opposite of what you are saying - I am speaking concerning SALVATION.

Christ is no longer on the cross, He is a risen Lord and we are to walk as we are risen with Him. To not walk in the risen new nature but continue in the old nature carries a dangerous ending result.

When people fall away the bible clearly states they have to "return" or be "restored" to the Lord to receive salvation.

Return and restored means they had to be in the faith before at one time, not coming to it the first time !!!

Then you bring up the scripture of nobody can call Jesus Lord except by the Holy Spirit, that means only believers can call Him Lord because unbelievers don't have the Holy Spirit.

Question to you: What do the goats in Matthew 25 call Jesus ???

I believe it says we need to ask forgiveness to restore fellowship with the Father and the Son. - not salvation.