Can perfection be realized without imperfection?

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Sipsey

Well-known member
#1
Sep 27, 2018
1,581
758
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#1
That is a thought I woke up with the other morning. The thought occurred with a “What if.” What would humanity look like if Adam & Eve had not sinned in the Garden? As I tried to work through the many thoughts involved, I think I also came to realize that maybe God knew what He was doing, by allowing the first humans to choose.

Here are a few things I pondered as a result of that early morning thought. See if you agree, or might add some insight. Thanks in advance.

  • If perfection cannot be realized without imperfection, it suggests that contrast is necessary for meaning and appreciation. This idea aligns with philosophical and theological discussions about the necessity of free will, growth, and even suffering in shaping understanding and appreciation of goodness.



  • If Adam and Eve had never sinned, one could argue that humanity might not have fully grasped the value of obedience, love, and divine grace. Without the contrast of sin, would righteousness have had the same significance? Without suffering, would joy be as deeply appreciated?



  • Some theological perspectives suggest that God, in His omniscience, allowed the fall because a greater form of perfection, one that includes redemption, free will, and love chosen rather than forced, and was part of His ultimate plan. In this view, perfection is not merely an absence of sin but the full realization of grace, mercy, and justice through overcoming imperfection.
 
Magenta

Magenta

Senior Member
#2
Jul 3, 2015
63,383
32,072
113
#2
God knew Adam would fail and choose to sin deliberately. Adam was of the natural world, after all.


James 1:14-15; 1 John 2:16 Each one is tempted when by his own evil desires he is lured away and enticed. Then after desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, gives birth to death. For all that is in the world- the desires of the flesh, the desires of the eyes, and the pride of life- is not from the Father but from the world. .:)
 
Lynx

Lynx

Folksy yet erudite
#3
Aug 13, 2014
28,644
10,228
113
#3
Sipsey said:
That is a thought I woke up with the other morning. The thought occurred with a “What if.” What would humanity look like if Adam & Eve had not sinned in the Garden? As I tried to work through the many thoughts involved, I think I also came to realize that maybe God knew what He was doing, by allowing the first humans to choose.

Here are a few things I pondered as a result of that early morning thought. See if you agree, or might add some insight. Thanks in advance.

  • If perfection cannot be realized without imperfection, it suggests that contrast is necessary for meaning and appreciation. This idea aligns with philosophical and theological discussions about the necessity of free will, growth, and even suffering in shaping understanding and appreciation of goodness.



  • If Adam and Eve had never sinned, one could argue that humanity might not have fully grasped the value of obedience, love, and divine grace. Without the contrast of sin, would righteousness have had the same significance? Without suffering, would joy be as deeply appreciated?



  • Some theological perspectives suggest that God, in His omniscience, allowed the fall because a greater form of perfection, one that includes redemption, free will, and love chosen rather than forced, and was part of His ultimate plan. In this view, perfection is not merely an absence of sin but the full realization of grace, mercy, and justice through overcoming imperfection.
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All I know is there will be a lot of people in heaven who will remember living in a place that was not perfect, and will have no interest in breaking the new world with sin the way we broke this one.

We don't overcome imperfection though. We deal with it, we work around it, but we don't overcome it. We live in faith with the hope that one day it will be wiped out and we will be returned to the perfection that we once threw away.
 
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Karlon

Well-known member
#4
Mar 8, 2023
2,980
1,376
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#4
yes, remove your condition response to negativity!
 
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Karlon

Well-known member
#6
Mar 8, 2023
2,980
1,376
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#6
Sipsey said:
Could you provide more information?
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yes, use natural self healing. repeat in your mind that you won't have any negative thoughts about anything. its takes a while & it's hard work but it always works. &, you don't have to pay anyone. read an old book called, 'the powers of your subconscious mind".
 
S

Sipsey

Well-known member
#7
Sep 27, 2018
1,581
758
113
#7
Karlon said:
yes, use natural self healing. repeat in your mind that you won't have any negative thoughts about anything. its takes a while & it's hard work but it always works. &, you don't have to pay anyone. read an old book called, 'the powers of your subconscious mind".
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Sounds like an old book title, “The Power of Positive Thinking.” I understand what you are saying, and a constant positive attitude is a blessing. Our thoughts though, have limitations, God’s do not.
 
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Karlon

Well-known member
#8
Mar 8, 2023
2,980
1,376
113
#8
Sipsey said:
Sounds like an old book title, “The Power of Positive Thinking.” I understand what you are saying, and a constant positive attitude is a blessing. Our thoughts though, have limitations, God’s do not.
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as soon as you recognize a bad, sinful, wrong or negative thought, cast it out in the name of Jesus! the more you condition yourself to this the more it will be conditioned in your brain & you'll get better & better at it. when you "recognize", add in admittance identification & correction. the order is: Admit, Identify, Recognize & Correct. anything is possible or you wouldn't know of it!
 
S

Sipsey

Well-known member
#9
Sep 27, 2018
1,581
758
113
#9
Karlon said:
as soon as you recognize a bad, sinful, wrong or negative thought, cast it out in the name of Jesus! the more you condition yourself to this the more it will be conditioned in your brain & you'll get better & better at it. when you "recognize", add in admittance identification & correction. the order is: Admit, Identify, Recognize & Correct. anything is possible or you wouldn't know of it!
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Sounds like you have worked hard at “taking every thought captive.” Self discipline is a mark of many of my ex military friends, and I think all Christians would do well to heed your advice.
 
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Karlon

Well-known member
#10
Mar 8, 2023
2,980
1,376
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#10
Sipsey said:
Sounds like you have worked hard at “taking every thought captive.” Self discipline is a mark of many of my ex military friends, and I think all Christians would do well to heed your advice.
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thank you Sipsey. i concentrate heavily on self-healing, discipline, perseverance, persistence, not quitting, in other words, the whole realm of what that encompasses. people will be very surprised when they find out what they can do for themselves if they truly try their best, especially being a born again Christian, which is a rare thing in America. Americans are generally lazy, without ambition, spiritually weak, quick to quit, etc. & think of the money people can save helping themselves. too, forsake the psychosematics.
 
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