Can someone lose their salvation?

[eternally-gratefull]

the key part is in the second part of the verse...
"for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us:"

they started out as one of them... but by the time they went out from them, they no longer were of them... the passage gives the impression from the word "continue" that they had to start in order to continue it... in this case, these people did not continue in the faith. they departed from it; either because of sin or false doctrine, that is only speculation; this particular verse doesnt say.

Wow, lets completely ignore the most important part of the verse.

but they were not really of us; for if they had been of us, they would have remained with us; but they went out, so that [d]it would be shown that they all are not of us

Were. past tense. They were never of us. They left to prove that they were never really of us! Talk about twisting scripture to make our belief system believable to us..

the same thing is said for Hebrews 2:1-4, especially v3
"How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him;"

neglect means "to be careless of"... only a believer can be careless of their salvation. an unsaved person cannot be careless with something they do not have. they can only reject it.

Not true. Once you hear the gospel, you are responsible for it. Many play around with it for along time, but never take a hold of it and posses it. They play the game, but never come to true faith. That is why the warning goes to all who are reading. Not all of us who profess to be saved are saved.

more on point with 1 john 2:19, 2 Peter 2:1-2 also talks about the same thing:

1 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.
2 And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of.

the Lord had bought them at one point in their life, but yet these men chose to deny the Lord... because of their turning to false doctrine, they shipwrecked their faith, like Hymenaeus and Alexander did, as mentioned in 1 Timothy...

Again not true. John makes it clear, If they had truly been of us they never would have left. These false prophets came in, and people who had yet to truly recieve the truth in faith were easily convinced of the lie and left.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

eternally-grateful


YOU SAID: The flaw is thinking God will save a person HE KNOWS will walk away and deny him.


The Lord recieves all who come to Him does he not? I agree with you that the Lord knows all about those who come to Him, but flaw in your logic is ..We do not know what the Lord knows. So as far as we can see.. ALL that come before the alter and cofess Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior are Saved according to John 3:16. We have the responsibility of preaching and teaching all of those who come in the Word of God and what He requires of them. When we say people can lose their salvation, it is from the logic that we don't know who may be genuine, so it is not our place to tell them that they are not really saved. What we do know, is that if they continue their unrepented sinful behavior, heaven will not be their home.

When you say people can't lose their salvation it is from the logic that God never accepted them when the said the sinners prayer, so they never had salvation, so they never lost it, but all those who said the sinners prayer thast the Lord accepted, they will be saved forever.....ok..I can actually live with both schools of thought.

True faith will never depart. John says this. As does Christ.

Paul tells us even when we are faithless, he remains faithfull. Remember jesus said faith of a mustard seed is all it takes.

The problem is when we think everyone has to become a super spiritually mature Christian first, then we are saved. There are many baby Christians in heaven today, who lost out on a lot of things God wanted to give them on erth, and probably many reward they could have had in heaven. But as scripture says, he himself will be saved, even though as escaping through the fire (with nothing to show for it)

God knows true faith, and he knows a false faith from someone who realy does not believe.

true faith will produce true works. A false faith will produce no works. that is what separates a true christian who is sealed forever, and a false christian who is still lost.

 

[selenah]

And Selenah, And zill listen up very hard, for this is very important.

Not everyone who goes to church or claims to be a believer in Christ are saved. Many who walk into the doors of our churches are no more saved than a person who claims to be an athiest. When The apostles wrote to these churches. they knew these people were in the midst. and would read or hear these letters of warnings.

John makes it clear. An antichrist is one who denys Christ./

He also makes it clear. they were "never of us" (they were never saved in the first place, they just proffesed salvation) for IF THEY WERE OF US if they were truely saved ) they NEVER WOULD HAVE DEPARTED (never would have left and denied Christ) But they left us to PROVE, THEY WERE NEVER OF US.

The thing is, you say that a Christian would never deny Christ. In the past, I've denied God a few times, but I'm pretty sure that I was a Christian before then. I don't understand how someone can decide to accept God and then they are never able to be tempted to deny God after that. What happens to free will after salvation?

 

[Zilla64007]

The thing is, you say that a Christian would never deny Christ. In the past, I've denied God a few times, but I'm pretty sure that I was a Christian before then. I don't understand how someone can decide to accept God and then they are never able to be tempted to deny God after that. What happens to free will after salvation?

according to those who believe in OSAS, free will doesn't exist, either before or after salvation

 

[selenah]

according to those who believe in OSAS, free will doesn't exist, either before or after salvation

Well I have to admit that I think the verses that they posted point towards once saved always saved. It's just that everything inside me and what I know from experience says that's not true. Soo yeah I don't know lol

 

[Zilla64007]

Well I have to admit that I think the verses that they posted point towards once saved always saved. It's just that everything inside me and what I know from experience says that's not true. Soo yeah I don't know lol

those in favor of OSAS will only post their side, selenah... while there are scriptures that teach that, there are also other scriptures that say a man can forfeit his salvation from sin and false doctrine. when it comes to salvation, you can't cite one part of scriptures, and then ignore the other side...

now, if this doctrine, once saved always saved, were indeed biblical and scriptural, it would be painfully evident within the early church fathers... the fact of the matter is, unconditional eternal security didnt exist during that time.

the only place it existed was in Greek philosophy, because that's where it started.
in Epicurean Gnosticism.

 

[jimmydiggs]

i did read the whole statement... v13 doesn't change the outcome of v12.

God has to remain faithful to His word. He cannot say one thing and then do another... He is bound by His Word, and cannot go against His own Word, lest He become a liar and contradict His own Word.

God must remain faithful to His Word, especially when we cant stay faithful to ours...

2 Timothy 2:11-13
11 It is a faithful saying: For if we be dead with Him, we shall also live with Him;
12 if we suffer, we shall also reign with Him. If we deny Him, He also will deny us;
13 if we believe not, yet He abideth faithful; He cannot deny Himself.

Paul is writing to Timothy and to like-minded Christians.
if we cannot remain faithful to His Word, He MUST remain faithful to His Word, for He cannot deny Himself.
so if we deny Him, He cannot deny Himself by not denying us.

if we are dead with Him, we shall also live with Him
if we suffer, we shall also reign with Him
if we deny Him, He will also deny us

this is what He must remain faithful to.
God cannot do anything He wants and get away with it.

Yes, God will not deny his own word. That's why I believe what Jesus said in John 6:37, and 6:44...

John 6:37
37 All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out.
John 6:44
44 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.

Jesus says that those the father gives will come, and he won't cast out. Oh darn, there's no way to get out!

John 6:44, Jesus says that the one who is drawn "...sent me draws him..." will be raised up by Jesus in the Resurrection of the dead.


Romans 6:5
5 For if we have been united with him in a death like his, we shall certainly be united with him in a resurrection like his.


I believe Jesus. Why don't you? Paul is reaffirming the Doctrine of Perseverence of the Saints when he writes Timothy, and also the reliability of God.

 

[Tombo]

those in favor of OSAS will only post their side, selenah... while there are scriptures that teach that, there are also other scriptures that say a man can forfeit his salvation from sin and false doctrine. when it comes to salvation, you can't cite one part of scriptures, and then ignore the other side...

now, if this doctrine, once saved always saved, were indeed biblical and scriptural, it would be painfully evident within the early church fathers... the fact of the matter is, unconditional eternal security didnt exist during that time.

the only place it existed was in Greek philosophy, because that's where it started.
in Epicurean Gnosticism.

You just can't accept what the bible says, so you try using your own reasoning. Well if the bible taught this, that so and so should have taught that, etc.
It is biblical, you just don't like it. You don't want God to have complete soverignty over who He saves or doesn't save. You seem to think if eveyone can't have the same opportunity to "work" for their salvation, or to "accept" Christ, then it isn't fair. You don't believe the biblical witness that all men are sinners, dead in sin, and deserve to be destroyed. You won't embrace that God willed to save for Himself a people out of the whole mass of sinners. Not all will be saved because God doesn't will that all be saved. It has nothing to do with repenting, or conjuring up some feelings of godly sorrow. We can't, and wouldn't even want to "repent" or "accept" God if He didn't first draw us to Himself.
You can't swallow the true teaching of God making us righteous through Christ alone, so you go about to establish a righeousness of your own based on works.
God help you to see the truth.
God bless.

Tom

 

[Katy-follower]

The idea of 'losing salvation' suggests that the person tried to earn it in the first place, which you can't do. A works based salvation isn't biblical. After salvation come the works, prepared for us in advance. Works play no part in saving a person.

You become sealed with the Holy Spirit, into the body of Christ, which is eternal. The Holy Spirit always dwells in you but will remain a quiet resident if you don't call Him up to the front of your life. You have Him to guide you but He won't if you don't allow Him to. It's possible for a person to feel like they've lost their salvation when in actual fact they are just feeling distant from God. This happens if we don't pray often and don't feed on His word.


Ephesians 1:13: "In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise"

John 10: 28-29: "And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father’s hand"

 

[jimmydiggs]

We can't, and wouldn't even want to "repent" or "accept" God if He didn't first draw us to Himself.

True facts son.

Romans 8:7
7 For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God's law; indeed, it cannot.

 

[titus211]

How can someone lose their salvation? How does someone know if they've lost their salvation.

How did they know if they were saved in the first place and how exactly were they saved?

 

[Katy-follower]

a man can forfeit his salvation from sin and false doctrine

The bible does not tell us this.

Apostasy is a demonstration that salvation was never truly possessed in the first place.

unconditional eternal security didnt exist during that time

You cannot change the Gospel. We are sealed at salvation and noone can snatch us from God. Nowhere does God say it's conditional salvation. 'Conditional' is not grace. 'Conditional' suggests you are looking on your own personal merits or failures to either remain or fall from salvation. This stands in opposition to grace.

A person who is saved knows they are saved and knows it's eternal. They have that peace and security. They bear the fruits and are obedient to God. Someone who is not born again does not have this same security.

 

[Tombo]

These people who continually speak of free will, don't understand that an unsaved person is in bondage to a sinful will that is against God. It is only when we are saved and made a slave of God in Christ that our will is truly free to serve God the way that we were intended to. What a beautiful irony!!!! We must become a slave in order to know true free will!!!

Romans 6:20-23 " For when you were slaves of sin, you were free in regard to righteousness. But what fruit were you getting at that time from the things of which you are now ashamed. For the end of those things is death. But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, the fruit you get leads to sanctification and it's end, eternal life. For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord."

It is free people. It is all of God. We can do nothing whatsoever to incite, or move God, to save us, it is all of free grace.
Give all glory to God for saving you, instead of accusing Him of doing wrong if He doesn't save people they way that you think He should!!!!
God bless.

Tom

 

[selenah]

How did they know if they were saved in the first place and how exactly were they saved?

I guess they would know because they wouldn't feel alone and would believe and know that God is there and He has saved them.

 

[titus211]

False teacher complicate the simplicity of the gospel of Christ. Repentance brought about by Godly sorrow, 2 Cor 7:10-11 is how one gets saved. You must strive to enter at the narrow gate, for MANY shall try and not be able to. Ezekiel 18 shows how easily we can fall from grace and Hebrews 10:26, 6:4 and 12:16 are just a few verses that show you can't dilly dally with God when it come to salvation. You can't just sin and repent over and over and not get burnt in the end.

 

[jimmydiggs]

I guess they would know because they wouldn't feel alone and would believe and know that God is there and He has saved them.

Gotta be careful about touchy feely stuff.
Proverbs 14:12
There is a way that seems right to a man, but in the end it leads to death.

Proverbs 16:25
There is a way that seems right to a man, but in the end it leads to death.

 

[selenah]

Gotta be careful about touchy feely stuff.
Proverbs 14:12
There is a way that seems right to a man, but in the end it leads to death.

Proverbs 16:25
There is a way that seems right to a man, but in the end it leads to death.

Then how do you know if it's feelings or the Holy Spirit?

 

[jimmydiggs]

Then how do you know if it's feelings or the Holy Spirit?

James 3:17
17 But the wisdom from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, open to reason, full of mercy and good fruits, impartial and sincere. 18 And a harvest of righteousness is sown in peace by those who make peace

Galatians 1:8
But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let him be eternally condemned!

That's the first that comes to mind.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

The thing is, you say that a Christian would never deny Christ. In the past, I've denied God a few times, but I'm pretty sure that I was a Christian before then. I don't understand how someone can decide to accept God and then they are never able to be tempted to deny God after that. What happens to free will after salvation?

How did you deny God? This is the question. did you stop believing in him fully? Or just lose faith in him?

I have lost faith, and even became a prodigal son. But I never stopped believing Christ was the messiah who died for our sin.

It does not have to do with free will. If you have Christ and the HS in you. and have seen Gods love and his forgiveness. How could you every deny him fully and no longer say he is the christ who died for you? I just can't see it.

Either way, John said we would never depart. So that is good enough for me

 

[eternally-gratefull]

according to those who believe in OSAS, free will doesn't exist, either before or after salvation

More slander. Why don't you fess up you have no clue what I believe. I have never denied free will.

I also see you continue to deny what John says, He said they NEVER were of us. Just like eternal does not mean forever. You want me to twist never to not mean never.