Can someone lose their salvation?

[eternally-gratefull]

EG, This is a serious question I have in trying to understand you better.

If you say we cannot even count how many times a day we sin, so we are all continual sinners, and then you say if you practice sin you were never of God, what is the difference?

The difference is a person who has not repented and trusted God will continue to live as he did before. Not feel any guilt for his sin, and not see where he is a sinner. thus does not realize how much of a sinner he is.

Were as those who are saved, have changed our lives, Have grown at least some in Christ, but realize how hopeless we are because we are but wretched men, Are repentant of those sins, and realizes how sinful we really are.

So what is the difference of us all continually sinning, from one who practices sin?

see above.

To practice something means to be active in doing such. Continual, means to continue in. So what is the difference?

If one who practices sin is of the devil, what about the one to sins continually?

when you practice something, you willfully do it to try to get something out of it, that is why you practice it. Do you think I willfully and arrogantly want to practice serving self and Not God? I would be a fool, But I still do it on a daily basis don't I? Don't you? (if you say no, I would wonder how serious you are with yourself!) Why do you think paul said he continued to do what he did not want to do, and things he wanted do he found it was hard to do? Because we all struggle on a daily basis, Non of us are perfect. It does not mean we practice those things, or are defiantly doing them, It just means we are still kids waiting to grow up, but even when we grow up, we will still sin.

By the way, John said a person who is born of God can not practice sin, so did John lie? or can we as children of God practice sin and in doing so lose salvation? you can't have it both ways!

 

[feedm3]

The difference is a person who has not repented and trusted God will continue to live as he did before. Not feel any guilt for his sin, and not see where he is a sinner. thus does not realize how much of a sinner he is.

So one who "practices sin" is different from one who "continually sins" because the "practice-er" does not feel any guilt about sinning, verses the "continual sinner" who continues to sin, yet feels guilty about it.

I dont find this anywhere in scripture. I dont see anywhere a difference in sinning based on feeling guilt or not, both are still continuing in sin.

The only difference is the Christian who is continually sinning should actully fear more, as he knows the will fo the Father and is still sinning.

It does not matter if we say "we are so wretched" etc. Just because one can sin with humility does not mean he is escaping judgment for sin.

Were as those who are saved, have changed our lives, Have grown at least some in Christ, but realize how hopeless we are because we are but wretched men, Are repentant of those sins, and realizes how sinful we really are.

You just said above "we who are saved have changed our lives", "are REPENTANT of those sins" and at the same time you said "we realized how sinful we are".

Can you not see how all these cannot be true at the same time. If we have changed our lives, through repentance, (which means stopped, not regret...it is a change of mind that leads to an action) then why are we still sinning continually? Because "continually" implies no repentance.

when you practice something, you willfully do it to try to get something out of it, that is why you practice it. Do you think I willfully and arrogantly want to practice serving self and Not God? I would be a fool, But I still do it on a daily basis don't I? Don't you? (if you say no, I would wonder how serious you are with yourself!)

Actually, if your saying one cannot go a day without transgressing God's law, your saying it's impossible to not sin.

what is sin? I Jn 3:4, I Jn 2:15-17. It is the lust of the flesh, and eyes and pride of life.

Mostly you all bring up things like, have you evangelized to your fullest ability today? Have you feed the poor, visited the sick etc.

These question are made to prove if I have not, then I have sinned by not doing these things, so it can SEEM that it is impossible not to go a day without sinning.

False. Things like benevolence, evangelism, etc, show our maturity, our zeal, our growth, yet is not a sin when are not doing them to the fullest ability everyday. That just shows how much we need to grow.

Yet SIN itself, giving in the lust of the flesh (drinking, porn, drugs), the lust of the eyes (coveting, wanting what others have), the pride of life (pride itself, athiestism, and in religion) are sinful categories that all sin fit into, and it is possible to go a day without transgressing these.

Sin is defined for us I Jn 3:4. It does not matter if I or you have sinned today or not. That does not change what the bible says concerning sin, and does not change the consequences of sin.

Why do you think paul said he continued to do what he did not want to do, and things he wanted do he found it was hard to do? Because we all struggle on a daily basis,

Yes, but Paul never said "i sin daily", Paul showed the struggle between the flesh and spirit. And he revealed to us, that through the commands of God, we see sin. Why? So we can stop doing what we want, and know what God's will is. not so we can recognize it, anc continue doing it.

The same Paul also wrote that we are to become dead to sin. He said do not let sin reign in your mortal bodies etc. Do you think Paul is saying in one place we cant help to sin, and in another, we must be dead to it?

Non of us are perfect.

It depends on how you are using the word perfect. If your using it in the sense the Bible does "telios" which means complete, then we are to become "perfect". Col 1:28

If you mean "flawless" as in never having sinned before, of course none of are even close to that.

It does not mean we practice those things, or are defiantly doing them, It just means we are still kids waiting to grow up, but even when we grow up, we will still sin.
By the way, John said a person who is born of God can not practice sin, so did John lie? or can we as children of God practice sin and in doing so lose salvation? you can't have it both ways!

Exactly, you cant have it both ways. You said by us continuing in sin, we are just kids waiting to grow up? But those who have no guilt are going to be judged? Can you show a passage here?

This is your explanation due to you trying to have it both ways. Your trying to say we must change our lives and stop sinning and at the same time say we cant stop all sinning. Again you cant have it both ways.

John did not lie, and even if your misinterpreting John, that would not make him a liar, just you wrong. John said we cannot sin. Period.

In other words, a Christian cannot continue to sin daily and just say he must because he just a kid waiting to grow up". Why? Because the Christian is forbidden to continue in sin, because "he cannot sin".

Not that "he Cannot sin" means God will stop him, or that he can sin without the consequences,

but it means HE IS FORBIDDEN to live in sin like the rest of the world does.

It does not matter if he feels guilty while he does it, that just shows he knows better.

Anyway, I hope I said everything to you kindly as I am trying to keep it civil as you asked. Thanks for your post.

 

[Grandpa]

Obviously, I'm not arguing that we are saved by faith, and Jesus is the author of our salvation. However, you seem to be sticking strictly with the verses you like and disregarding others you don't.

Second Peter 2:20–22 “If they have escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and are again entangled in it and overcome, they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning. It would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than to have known it and then to turn their backs on the sacred command that was passed on to them. Of them the proverbs are true: ‘A dog returns to its vomit,’ and, ‘A sow that is washed goes back to her wallowing in the mud.’ ”

There would be no reason for Peter to address this possibility if it wasn't a possibility. He begins by saying, "if they have escaped the corruption etc. by knowing Jesus, etc, which means they DID KNOW Jesus. But-- then they turned away, becoming entangled in the world again. What then does it say? That by turning away after knowing Jesus, it would have been better if they had never known righteousness. That obviously not only puts them back to square one, it puts them even further back. Again, they knew the Lord and they turned away, and therefore, were much worse off afterward than those who do not know the Lord. That does not imply salvation to me by any stretch of the imagination. Are people who don't know the Lord saved? You're simply not addressing verses that clearly state that a person can lose their salvation by willfully turning away and staying away.

2 Peter chapter 2 is all about false teachers. It is a warning not to take the Salvation of the Lord Jesus lightly. It is a warning not to use the Lord for a persons own vanity and monetary gain.

It is showing a person who loves the world trying to use spirituality as a way to make a name for themselves. These people didn't intend to follow Jesus at all but just wanted to learn and be able to fool people into following them.

To try and show that 2 Peter Chapter 2 has anything at all whatsoever to do with saved christians is a misguided interpretation. Maybe you should start at the beginning of chapter 2 and read the whole thing and see if you agree.

You didn't respond to the question I had for you concerning Hebrews 3:12-14...

 

[Grandpa]

Does God's love ever give up?
Does God's Love ever run out?
Does God's Love ever fail?


NO, it does not, gramps, but we give up, we run out, we fail

And, thus, the gift is not wanted, that is obvious, one who knows Christ in His heart and continues to sin and still be in Him will be lukewarm and spat out.

The being saved is a gift, and, regardless of it being from God, God gives us our own freewill choice of what we WILLFULLY choose to do with that 'gift.'

God is the author and finishrt of our faith. But in the middle is what we choose to do with that faith that's been given to.us. God kneaded 'it,' works 'it, 'grows it,' as we have it and let the Lord lead us, we walk IN FAITH.

That was my point for you to see that God's Love doesn't fail. Our faith and finishing of our salvation is not based on how we feel, how we perform or what we want or don't want. Our faith and the finishing of our salvation is dependant on the Author and Finisher of our Salvation, the Lord Jesus Christ. It is by God's Power we are Saved and it is by God's Power we stay Saved.

Lukewarm is a mixture of Hot and Cold. It is basically the same warning and teaching of Galatians 3. Do you believe in the Gospel or do you believe in YOUR own works? Obviously you believe in your works if you think you can work your way out of the gift that the Lord has promised in His word that He would not take back. Salvation is a Promise from God Himself.

I can't convince you of your salvation if you have faith that you won't recieve it until some future time. The promises of God are for us, right now. If you don't believe that then you don't have faith, you have intellectual philosophy. You have abstract theories for what may or may not happen in the future.

This is what I have to say to your middle part about what we do with our faith;
Romans 8:28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.

When we fail God uses it for our Good. When we give up on God, He does not give up on us.

In conclusion Ephesians 3:14-21 if you are interested...

 

[Ariel82]

Hebrews 3:12–14“See to it, brothers, that none of you has a sinful, unbelieving heart that turns away from the living God. But encourage one another daily, as long as it is called Today, so that none of you may be hardened by sin’s deceitfulness. We have come to share in Christ if we hold firmly till the end the confidence we had at first.”

Here it clearly says, in short, make sure none of you has a sinful, unbelieving heart that turns away from the living God. In other words, obviously you can turn away. Here's another.

1 Corinthians 15:1, 2 “1Now, brothers, I want to remind you of the gospel I preached to you, which you received and on which you have taken your stand. 2By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain.”.

To say "By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you," is also very clear. Then to add, "otherwise, you have believed in vain,'' seems pretty straight forward to me.

According to Revelation 3:5- “He who overcomes will, like them, be dressed in white. I will never blot out his name from the book of life, but will acknowledge his name before my Father and his angels," those who won’t have their names blotted out of the book of life are those who overcome.

And here's one more. 1 Corinthians 9:27 “No, I beat my body and make it my slave so that after I have preached to others, I myself will not be disqualified for the prize.”

Paul said right there that he personally has to beat his sinful nature (or maybe literally, body) to make it a slave so that he himself will not be disqualified from the prize. To suggest that verse means anything but exactly what it says, is stretching scriptures to fit alternate your beliefs.

is there a reason you dug this out of the old threads instead of starting your own thread and do you think it wise to tell a young girl she has to work for her salvation?

why don't you read just ONE of your verses in CONTEXT and realize that the "prize" is not salvation since more than ONE can be given that?

plus salvation not a prize to be won at all but given by GRACE not a payment under the Law.

1 Co 9


24 Do you not know that those who run in a race all run, but one receives the prize? Run in such a way that you may obtain it. 25 And everyone who competes for the prize is temperate in all things. Now they do it to obtain a perishable crown, but we for an imperishable crown. 26 Therefore I run thus: not with uncertainty. Thus I fight: not as one who beats the air. 27 But I discipline my body and bring it into subjection, lest, when I have preached to others, I myself should become disqualified.

GOD gives people power to overcome, if people try and do it themselves they are just being set up for failure.

 

[Ariel82]

Obviously, I'm not arguing that we are saved by faith, and Jesus is the author of our salvation. However, you seem to be sticking strictly with the verses you like and disregarding others you don't.

There would be no reason for Peter to address this possibility if it wasn't a possibility. He begins by saying, "if they have escaped the corruption etc. by knowing Jesus, etc, which means they DID KNOW Jesus. But-- then they turned away, becoming entangled in the world again. What then does it say? That by turning away after knowing Jesus, it would have been better if they had never known righteousness. That obviously not only puts them back to square one, it puts them even further back. Again, they knew the Lord and they turned away, and therefore, were much worse off afterward than those who do not know the Lord. That does not imply salvation to me by any stretch of the imagination. Are people who don't know the Lord saved? You're simply not addressing verses that clearly state that a person can lose their salvation by willfully turning away and staying away.

umm the Pharisess "knew" Jesus but they never accept His salvation, they turned away from Him. Just as some "know" the Bible and the Gospel superficially but that does not mean they have been born again or have the HOLY Spirit within them. some "know" only the Law and the doctrines of Men and have never heard or believed the True Gospel of Christ because they do not have the ears or eyes to hear and see and repent and be truly saved.

anyway, Selena if you are reading this love you girl hope you are doing well and praying about anger issues. remember "be angry but do not let the sun set on that anger" it means to forgive others as God has forgiven you before going to bed. it makes for less nightmares.

 

[feedm3]

is there a reason you dug this out of the old threads instead of starting your own thread and do you think it wise to tell a young girl she has to work for her salvation?

Would it be wise to teach someone that they do not have to do anything to inherit eternal life?

Heb 5:9 and being made perfect he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him

Is Jesus telling us that these people that are saved had to work?

Or is he saying he is saving the obedient? The answer is clear, and the context supports what he said.

If he is the author of eternal salvation unto all them that OBEY him, then what does that imply of those who do not obey him? <----No OSAS has ever answered this question concerning Heb 5:8-9

why don't you read just ONE of your verses in CONTEXT and realize that the "prize" is not salvation since more than ONE can be given that?

Salvation is given by Grace, yet grace can be accepted, and then rejected by anyone. Otherwise it would not be possible to receive the grace of God "in vain", nor to have Jesus become "of no effect" to us, nor could the "sacrifice be made of no effect" upon one who willfully sins.

The Problem is, you all try to twist it into God's fault if we choose to receive his grace in vain. And make him out to be one who is giving and taking away.

God gave. You have a choice accept or reject. IF we accept, and then choose to reject by turning back to sin, then God did not take away, we have it back; we rejected it.

Gal 5:4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace (This was warning Christians who returned to the law of Moses, showing it is possible to "fall from grace" and to have "Christ become of no effect)

II Cor 6:1 We then, as workers together with him, beseech you also that ye receive not the grace of God in vain (Again, written to Christians, showing it is possible to receive the grace of God in vain)

Heb 10:
26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, ("we" author includes himself, showing again this is written to Christians)

27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries. (The consequences of "willfully sinning" is the wrath fo God, even upon Christians)

28 He that despised Moses 'law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant (Shows these were not under the law, but were Christians, because their punishment in contrasted with those under the law, and shows a Christans is worth of "a much sorer punishment" than those who were under the law of Moses.)

These Passages PROVE in the context, and their explicit statements, that Christians MUST obey God, and repent of sin.

No one on this site has ever been able to explain these passages. Some attempt to answer, yet they cannot give a justifiable answer to what these are saying.

1. The Gal Christians who returned to the law of Moses, were in sin, and therefore would "fall from Grace" and have Christ become of no effect to them. PROVES a Christian can lose salvation.

2. The Corinthian Christians were warned NOT TO receive the grace of God IN VAIN

3. The Hebrew Christians were warned if the sin willfully (by returning to the law like the Gal) their would be no MORE sacrifice for their sins.

And the writer very explicitly states that if they do, then their punishment is going to be worthy than those who disobeyed under the law - again PROVING the persons being written were Christians, and no under the law.

So how many here will try to get around these passages by saying:

1. "The context is about the law of Moses:"

Answer: true, it is, and it shows it is sinful for a Christian to serve the law. Still, the point is not what is the sin, but the fact that this sin would cause the Gal Christans to fall from Grace.


2. "fall from Grace" does not mean they were not saved"

Answer: Of course it does, if you fall from grace, that means it is no longer effecting you. If Christ has become of no effect, then his blood is not cleansing you.


3. "There are two groups of people being written to."

Answer: Then show ONE pronoun, one change in audience that supports this false claim. Because from Chapter ONE we see it is speaking to Christians. From 1 to 6, NOTHING shows a change of audience, all refers to the group of Christians. If not show it.


4. Heb 10 is about the law of Moses

Answer: Duh, same response concerning the Gal see above.



5. "Those were not Christians in Hebrews."

Answer: Prove it, the who book is written to the church, and shows Christ is better than the law of the purpose of exhorting Christians to keep confessing Christ and not to return. Again I can prove it was written to Christians with many passages, can you show ONE that prove it was not?

I have heard it all on this site. No OSAS can deal with these passages, and if one can, I am waiting.

GOD gives people power to overcome, if people try and do it themselves they are just being set up for failure.

It is sad that someone has convinced you it is impossible to do what God expects of you. He expects you to do your Christian duty - Luk 17:10 shows us that duty is keeping his commands.

Those who think we cannot overcome sin, always use the "your trusting in yourself and not the work of Christ" ploy.

The truth is, those who think they cannot stop sinning are the one who do not trust God. God said through him ALL THINGS ARE POSSIBLE yet you want to convince me, it is not possible to become "Dead to sin" as we are commanded. Is anything too hard for Jehovah? - Gen 18:14

 

[Grandpa]

Would it be wise to teach someone that they do not have to do anything to inherit eternal life?

Heb 5:9 and being made perfect he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him

Is Jesus telling us that these people that are saved had to work?

Or is he saying he is saving the obedient? The answer is clear, and the context supports what he said.

If he is the author of eternal salvation unto all them that OBEY him, then what does that imply of those who do not obey him? <----No OSAS has ever answered this question concerning Heb 5:8-9

What is so difficult about this?

Those who do not obey Him cannot call Him Lord. If they cannot call Him Lord they cannot call on Him to save them. They have not believed.

Those who obey the Lord can call Him Lord. Those that desire to obey 100% can ask for His help and mercy.

We learn obedience often the same way as the Lord Jesus Christ, by suffering.

None of this has anything to do with staying saved once saved by the Lord. It is all kind of a side show.

 

[feedm3]

What is so difficult about this?

Those who do not obey Him cannot call Him Lord. If they cannot call Him Lord they cannot call on Him to save them. They have not believed.

Those who obey the Lord can call Him Lord. Those that desire to obey 100% can ask for His help and mercy.

We learn obedience often the same way as the Lord Jesus Christ, by suffering.

None of this has anything to do with staying saved once saved by the Lord. It is all kind of a side show.

Side show? Well then this "sideshow" message crushes your once saved always saved, because it show one who believes/disbelieves and does not obey is not saved.

now you have two choices:

1. Obedience does not mean keeping his commands

2. The Only obedience required is to believe

Either of these two can be proved wrong with other passages. unless you have another view that I missed. These show that Jesus obeyed to the point of death, so likewise (and it makes sense) he is only going to save those who obey because we are not greater than our Lord, and he left us an example we are to follow.

Why this is important is because many here teach that once saved, even if we choose to stop obeying, then we will still be saved in the end. I have been told God will bring back the disobedient Christian so he will be saved, and I have been told that a Christian will never be judged for sin.

Seeing sin is disobedience, and seeing this letter was written to Christians, and seeing that is says he is the author of salvation unto the 0bedient, then we can conclude those who do not obey God will not be saved. This does not only apply to non believers, but anyone who chooses sin over God.

The Only thing I will agree with you here is that this passage is not difficult to understand, nor are the others I posted.

You can try and say the disobedient were never saved, I dont agree, but that's fine if you want to say that, still it shows disobedience will cause one to have never been saved at all. If thats the way one wants to word it, okay then,

If one believes that, he should be teaching other Christians that they better be obeying God or they were never saved. Yet none of you teach this? So why not?

If you dont believe this does not pertain to these "who were never saved" then again it proves the point that oSAS cant be true.

So no matter which you choose, your inconsistent, unless your teaching salvation only belongs to the obedient. Then in that sense you would be agreeing with Heb 5:8-9

I see you said "those who do not obey him cannot call him Lord", So then what are you arguing pertaining to salvation? Is it the fact you want others to accept your opinion that if one is lost he was never saved? Or the other opinion that he "lost salvation", what does it matter?

What does it matter if one believes they were never saved, or one believes they lost salvation? What matters is the fact that those who disobey, remain in sin, continue in sin, practice sin, will not be saved, believer or not. Right?



The point is we MUST obey God. Not ONLY "Desire" to obey, no, that is not what the passage says, it says "unto them that OBEY him" not "desire to obey him".

So that is the reason I bring it up. No one answers it. You kinda gave an answer here, but it actually seems in the answer you just gave, you agree with me on the fact that we must obey God. Or I am I missing your point?

 

[feedm3]

2 Peter chapter 2 is all about false teachers. It is a warning not to take the Salvation of the Lord Jesus lightly. It is a warning not to use the Lord for a persons own vanity and monetary gain.

It is showing a person who loves the world trying to use spirituality as a way to make a name for themselves. These people didn't intend to follow Jesus at all but just wanted to learn and be able to fool people into following them.

To try and show that 2 Peter Chapter 2 has anything at all whatsoever to do with saved christians is a misguided interpretation. Maybe you should start at the beginning of chapter 2 and read the whole thing and see if you agree.

You didn't respond to the question I had for you concerning Hebrews 3:12-14...

Granpa, your interpretation of II Peter 2 is completly wrong, the text itself shows you this. Please take a look:

Notice what it says these false teachers have done
20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world <----If the "escaped teh pollutions of the world, then it implies they were once God's people.

There is no such thing as an unsaved person that has escaped the pollutions of the world, otherwise he would not be unsaved.

So his being unsaved shows he still is polluted with the world (except those who have never heard, in which clearly these false teachers do not fit).

So if they escaped, then they were saved.

It does not say they "Almost escaped", or "could have escaped" but that they did escape them.

through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, <----If they are "again entangled" in the world, then this implies they were once Untangled through the knowledge of Jesus Christ.

Again there is no such thing as an UNSAVED person who has been untangled from the world through the knowledge of Christ. That is impossible.


and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning. 21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them. <------ They are said to "over come", You cannot "turn from" where you have never been.

They "knew the way of righteousness", accepted it, and turned from it, and this disgusts God, because they forsake him.

The word "turned" in this passage gives the idea of reverting back. Implies they were converted.

22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire

So the false prophets were once:

1. Escaped from the pollutions of the world - Escaped meaning to be free from the bondage

2. Untangles from the world, over came through the knowledge of Christ, and knew the way of righteousness before they could TURN from it.

3. and "turned" reverted back to a life of sin, implying conversion at one point.


Again is it possible for one to (escape or) be FREED FROM THE BONDAGE OF THE WORLD (SIN), and still be unsaved?


Notice the Greek word that is used when it says to TURN from the holy command:

G1994
&#949;&#787;&#960;&#953;&#963;&#964;&#961;&#949;&#769;&#966;&#969; -----"TURN"
epistrepho&#772;
ep-ee-stref'-o
From G1909 and G4762; to revert (literally, figuratively or morally): - come (go) again, convert, (re-) turn (about, again).

They turned, which according to the Greek, means they "returned", "reverted" back.

In order to "revert" back to something, you had to first CONVERT to something else. In which they did, Christianity, yet Satan found a weakness in them, and used it.

This is the same thing and the same word used in describing the Galatians apostasy:'

Gal 4:9 But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn(Same word in II Pet 2)ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage?

Gal 4:10 Ye observe days, and months, and times, and years. <--going back to the law of Moses

Gal 4:11 I am afraid of you, lest I have bestowed upon you labour in vain. <---In vain because if they did not repent, they would fall from grace and Christ would become of no effect to them

Gal 5:4Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace

I am trying to show you, that sin is sin, and it will cause us to fall from grace (reject our salvation) if we do not repent.

Those false teachers described by Peter, are still here in many "churches" everywhere preaching for the same reasons false doctrine.

If these men were never saved, and never really converted, then the word used does not make sense, saying they "reverted back", because the inspired writer would have known that they were never really converted in the fist place, so why did the HS use a word that implies they were converted?

Anyone reading these passages without any preconceived Ideas would not come to the conclusion they were never saved, based on the words, "escaped the world, turned from the command, known the way of righteousness, through knowledge of Christ" etc.

the only reason one would say they were never saved is to attempt to remain consistent with a certain teaching.

yet we should not change what is easily understood to fit our doctrines, instead, we should change our doctrines to fit what the Bible says, and what is easily understood.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

So one who "practices sin" is different from one who "continually sins" because the "practice-er" does not feel any guilt about sinning, verses the "continual sinner" who continues to sin, yet feels guilty about it.

why do you twist everything around. why do you think I get sick of our conversations, you take everything I saw a twist it to make it appear like I said something I did not say.

Did the people James spoke to feel any remorse or sorrow for doing what they did? You know, being hearers and not doers of the word. Continuing to live like the world, and not like someone who had come to Christ? Who although the did not commit the so called 'evil sins" people like you wish to throw around, we still practicing sin on a daily basis?

are you telling me you do not chose self over anyone at any point of the day? on a daily basis? do you even know how many times you do this? the thing which would separate you from the people in james if you were saved is other areas of your old self died. you did works, not like them by making the poor sit in the back, but helping people, and doing other things which would glorify God, but to say you do not continue sin you would be fooling yourself. This is the difference your not seeing! and why you think you are more holy than others, when is reality you are no more holy then the person next to you, or anyone else. Remember, one sin of chosing self over God cost the mess we are in today, caused the death of all mankind, and caused you and me to be having this conversation, if one sin can do that, how do you think you can be more holy than ANYONE?

I dont find this anywhere in scripture. I dont see anywhere a difference in sinning based on feeling guilt or not, both are still continuing in sin.

The only difference is the Christian who is continually sinning should actully fear more, as he knows the will fo the Father and is still sinning.

actually this would be in error also. A christian does not fear (as in being scared to death of his father) for God did not give us a spirit of fear, but adopted us as sons. What we do do when we sin, is understand we WILL suffer the consequence of that sin, we WILL be chastened by the father, but God will still love us, as the author of hebrews said:

Hebrews 12:5
And you have forgotten the exhortation which speaks to you as to sons: “My son, do not despise the chastening of the LORD, Nor be discouraged when you are rebuked by Him;

Not only should we get angry at God for giving us what we deserve, we whould not fear or be discouraged by it. The law brings about fear. grace brings about Love and forgiveness, and as children, knowing we can come to our father openly for he adopted us as we were and will love us as we are.

It does not matter if we say "we are so wretched" etc. Just because one can sin with humility does not mean he is escaping judgment for sin.

Your right, it does not matter, What separates you and me is I admit my sin, and acknowledge I am a wretched man who will never be worthy, for some reason you refuse to see your sin, and for this reason can not see how totaly wretched you truly are.

You just said above "we who are saved have changed our lives", "are REPENTANT of those sins" and at the same time you said "we realized how sinful we are".

And? what is repentance, it is a change of heart. Before we came to Christ we did not think we were sinners, or rightfully judged. Repentance brought us to that truth that we are wretched men totally deserving of judgment, Should we change this view and think we are all of a sudden worthy of eternal life and worthy of Gods love? anyone who thinks this has never repented in the first place, and I would seriously question if he was saved at all.

Can you not see how all these cannot be true at the same time. If we have changed our lives, through repentance, (which means stopped, not regret...it is a change of mind that leads to an action) then why are we still sinning continually? Because "continually" implies no repentance.

You don't get it! I am not out living like the world, and like I was before, if I showed no changed life whatsoever i would question my own salvation. But I would be a FOOL to think I am sinless. that I do not on a daily basis chose self over God in anything. Just as John said, if we say we HAVE NO SIN, we decieve ourselves and there is no truth in us. so is there any truth in your freedom? Are you going to admit on a daily basis at least once you chose self over God, over another person, you don;t get angry for any reason, you never covet what someone has or is getting? can you be true to yourself and honest to yourself, because if you say no, you are not being honest with yourself or God.

Actually, if your saying one cannot go a day without transgressing God's law, your saying it's impossible to not sin.

Actually John said this in his first epistle. your argument is with him.

what is sin? I Jn 3:4, I Jn 2:15-17. It is the lust of the flesh, and eyes and pride of life.

Mostly you all bring up things like, have you evangelized to your fullest ability today? Have you feed the poor, visited the sick etc. [/quote[

You must be talking about someone else, I have never brought those up, yet once again, as always, you are misrepresenting what i have said, and making false accusations against me.

and what is sin? Sin is ANYTHING WE DO which is NOT GOD FOCUSED, but is SELF FOCUSED. 2 people can give to someone in need, which is commanded By God, but one can do it with selfish attitude expecting to get something out of it, thus he sinned when he did good, and the other did it out of love for the one in need, Like God did us. you evidently can not comprehend this fact!

why go further, I think we see how you have twisted what I said, made an attack on things I never said, and do not understand what is going on or what I believe, I don;t have the time or patience to continue to go over everything you said anymore.

 

[feedm3]

why do you twist everything around. why do you think I get sick of our conversations, you take everything I saw a twist it to make it appear like I said something I did not say.

Did the people James spoke to feel any remorse or sorrow for doing what they did? You know, being hearers and not doers of the word. Continuing to live like the world, and not like someone who had come to Christ? Who although the did not commit the so called 'evil sins" people like you wish to throw around, we still practicing sin on a daily basis?

are you telling me you do not chose self over anyone at any point of the day? on a daily basis? do you even know how many times you do this? the thing which would separate you from the people in james if you were saved is other areas of your old self died. you did works, not like them by making the poor sit in the back, but helping people, and doing other things which would glorify God, but to say you do not continue sin you would be fooling yourself. This is the difference your not seeing! and why you think you are more holy than others, when is reality you are no more holy then the person next to you, or anyone else. Remember, one sin of chosing self over God cost the mess we are in today, caused the death of all mankind, and caused you and me to be having this conversation, if one sin can do that, how do you think you can be more holy than ANYONE?

[/size]


actually this would be in error also. A christian does not fear (as in being scared to death of his father) for God did not give us a spirit of fear, but adopted us as sons. What we do do when we sin, is understand we WILL suffer the consequence of that sin, we WILL be chastened by the father, but God will still love us, as the author of hebrews said:

Hebrews 12:5
And you have forgotten the exhortation which speaks to you as to sons: “My son, do not despise the chastening of the LORD, Nor be discouraged when you are rebuked by Him;

Not only should we get angry at God for giving us what we deserve, we whould not fear or be discouraged by it. The law brings about fear. grace brings about Love and forgiveness, and as children, knowing we can come to our father openly for he adopted us as we were and will love us as we are.


Your right, it does not matter, What separates you and me is I admit my sin, and acknowledge I am a wretched man who will never be worthy, for some reason you refuse to see your sin, and for this reason can not see how totaly wretched you truly are.




And? what is repentance, it is a change of heart. Before we came to Christ we did not think we were sinners, or rightfully judged. Repentance brought us to that truth that we are wretched men totally deserving of judgment, Should we change this view and think we are all of a sudden worthy of eternal life and worthy of Gods love? anyone who thinks this has never repented in the first place, and I would seriously question if he was saved at all.



You don't get it! I am not out living like the world, and like I was before, if I showed no changed life whatsoever i would question my own salvation. But I would be a FOOL to think I am sinless. that I do not on a daily basis chose self over God in anything. Just as John said, if we say we HAVE NO SIN, we decieve ourselves and there is no truth in us. so is there any truth in your freedom? Are you going to admit on a daily basis at least once you chose self over God, over another person, you don;t get angry for any reason, you never covet what someone has or is getting? can you be true to yourself and honest to yourself, because if you say no, you are not being honest with yourself or God.





Actually John said this in his first epistle. your argument is with him.

what is sin? I Jn 3:4, I Jn 2:15-17. It is the lust of the flesh, and eyes and pride of life.

Mostly you all bring up things like, have you evangelized to your fullest ability today? Have you feed the poor, visited the sick etc. [/quote[

You must be talking about someone else, I have never brought those up, yet once again, as always, you are misrepresenting what i have said, and making false accusations against me.

and what is sin? Sin is ANYTHING WE DO which is NOT GOD FOCUSED, but is SELF FOCUSED. 2 people can give to someone in need, which is commanded By God, but one can do it with selfish attitude expecting to get something out of it, thus he sinned when he did good, and the other did it out of love for the one in need, Like God did us. you evidently can not comprehend this fact!

why go further, I think we see how you have twisted what I said, made an attack on things I never said, and do not understand what is going on or what I believe, I don;t have the time or patience to continue to go over everything you said anymore.

Wow man, I did not attack you at all. I said everything in a civil manner, never said anything toward you personally, never accused you of anything. It seems like no matter what I say or how I say it, your going to say these things. In fact your the one now getting personal, can you not see that?

All I did was question what your saying and your getting angry about it. Nothing was twisted, you were not attacked your over reacting. Maybe its just a habit to speak to me this way or something. Seriously though, if you go back read what I said, and how I said, youll see your just over reacting and being contentious.

Sorry I questioned your doctrine.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Wow man, I did not attack you at all. I said everything in a civil manner, never said anything toward you personally, never accused you of anything. It seems like no matter what I say or how I say it, your going to say these things. In fact your the one now getting personal, can you not see that?

Do you not understand how tiring it gets when someone says something, and continually someone comes back and interprets what they said in a way which does not even come close to be what they said? You do it to me all the time, it gets tiring,

All I did was question what your saying and your getting angry about it. Nothing was twisted, you were not attacked your over reacting. Maybe its just a habit to speak to me this way or something. Seriously though, if you go back read what I said, and how I said, youll see your just over reacting and being contentious.

Sorry I questioned your doctrine.

I did read it. I showed how we sin on a daily basis, and many times do not even know it. You misinterpret it to mean we are continuing in sin, Which is not the biblical interpretation of continuing in sin, In fact John said we who are born of God can not continue in sin, but if we say we are without sin we deceive ourselves.

Can't you see the logic flowing in what John said?

if we say we are without sin (present tense active mode in the greek meaning this is a continual action which does not end) we decieve ourselves, and then says we who are saved can not sin, for we are born of God and his spirit is in us, that in order to make these two statements jive and agree is that those born of God will sin, there is not a present time in their life where they can say they are without sin, but they can ot continue in sin. meaning that, unlike the world, who's life is nothign but sin, the one born of God CAN NOT LIVE IN THIS MANNER!

but you cant see that. it is like you read what someone says and look for key words, then a light goes on in your head and you say, OK I GOT YOU NOW, instead of looking for what someone says and trying to see where they are coming from, what it is they are trying to say, and why they are saying it.

 

[feedm3]

but you cant see that. it is like you read what someone says and look for key words, then a light goes on in your head and you say, OK I GOT YOU NOW,

Okay, sorry, not trying to make you mad or ask tiresome questions.

As for the " ok I got you now", sorry if it seems that way but that is not what I am doing. I am reading what you say, and questioning the implications your saying, that's all.

For the life of me, even with what you just said, I still do not understand how you say we sin daily, but do not continue in sin.

Not because I am trying to "get you", because that really does not make sense to me. Their are not two different ways to sin. Either we do, or we dont.

Not that anyone remains sinless all the time, but as your speaking of daily sins etc, I dont see a difference in daily sin, and continual sin.

You keep speaking of John's words, and I understand them just fine. I dont know what your getting at with his words. He is not contradicting himself.

I really just dont get what you mean, and not just me, trust me, there are others as well.

You asked why we could not speak civil, and that's all I am trying to do. If you would rather me just not speak to you, then just say so, I am not trying to provoke you.

 

[GreenNnice]

Your right, it does not matter, What separates you and me is I admit my sin, and acknowledge I am a wretched man who will never be worthy, for some reason you refuse to see your sin, and for this reason can not see how totaly wretched you truly are.


We are covered by the blood, yes, we SIN, I admit it, I sin all the time, but I AM covered by His blood.

There should be a pretty good logic flow to that, I would hope, and, I will pray, too.

Yes, we ARE wretched, Paul says that his own flesh does what he does not want it too, therefore, that is Paul SINNING. But, again, we are COVERED by the blood,the precious blood of the Lamb

 

[Ariel82]

Would it be wise to teach someone that they do not have to do anything to inherit eternal life?

they don't have to DO anything if they had to DO to EARN it would be wages and not a gift, but I'll go read Hebrews 5 now.....

Heb 5:9 and being made perfect he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him

7 who, in the days of His flesh, when He had offered up prayers and supplications, with vehement cries and tears to Him who was able to save Him from death, and was heard because of His godly fear, 8 though He was a Son, yet He learned obedience by the things which He suffered. 9 And having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him, 10 called by God as High Priest “according to the order of Melchizedek,” 11 of whom we have much to say, and hard to explain, since you have become dull of hearing.


12 For though by this time you ought to be teachers, you need someone to teach you again the first principles of the oracles of God; and you have come to need milk and not solid food. 13 For everyone who partakes only of milk is unskilled in the word of righteousness, for he is a babe. 14 But solid food belongs to those who are of full age, that is, those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.

... ok lets see what you take from the chapter....

Is Jesus telling us that these people that are saved had to work?

nope that chapter is about how Jesus suffered and was perfect in faith and saved people....

Or is he saying he is saving the obedient? The answer is clear, and the context supports what he said.

its saying that suffering causes people to learn to be obedient.

If he is the author of eternal salvation unto all them that OBEY him, then what does that imply of those who do not obey him? <----No OSAS has ever answered this question concerning Heb 5:8-9

since we disagree on the premise of your statement, shouldn't we discuss that before continuing this dialog and can we do it on another thread?

Salvation is given by Grace, yet grace can be accepted, and then rejected by anyone. Otherwise it would not be possible to receive the grace of God "in vain", nor to have Jesus become "of no effect" to us, nor could the "sacrifice be made of no effect" upon one who willfully sins.

The Problem is, you all try to twist it into God's fault if we choose to receive his grace in vain. And make him out to be one who is giving and taking away.

"you all" the clumping and false blanket statements begins.....or is it continues? I don't normally talk to you and I'm beginning to see why God never really placed it in my heart to dialog with you.

God gave. You have a choice accept or reject. IF we accept, and then choose to reject by turning back to sin, then God did not take away, we have it back; we rejected it.

Gal 5:4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace (This was warning Christians who returned to the law of Moses, showing it is possible to "fall from grace" and to have "Christ become of no effect)

you mention it but with your other words it makes me wonder if you truly understand what it means to fall from grace and return to the law of Moses?

if you want to continue arguing you will find plenty of people to indulge you,

however I don't have the time or patience. I only respond because you address me in Selenah's thread.

God's love is NOT earned its given freely. Salvation is through grace by faith. Faith is a gift of God which one can diligently add to virtue, knowledge, self control, brotherly kindness and love. with love being the mature/perfect state we should all strive to reach. love for the world as God loves us and them.

the difference between the LAW of sin and death and the Law of Grace is the HEART of the believer. it is the Heart that does it out of LOVE and not out of fear of losing salvation but out of the wisdom and understanding of God's plan for the world and our place in it that we as children of God obey Him.

I would never tell one that they should NOT strive to overcome their sins and believe everyone should strive to obey God. However I protest those who say they can lose their salvation because they believe they can by their actions gain or lose it at all. its false. Salvation is a gift and learning to obey is a blessing.

anyway love you Selenah! as always you are in my prayers.

 

[Ariel82]

Side show? Well then this "sideshow" message crushes your once saved always saved, because it show one who believes/disbelieves and does not obey is not saved.

now you have two choices:

1. Obedience does not mean keeping his commands

2. The Only obedience required is to believe

Either of these two can be proved wrong with other passages. unless you have another view that I missed.

I have another view you have totally not mentioned.

I believe in God's grace. How He gives people faith and as they grow, He forgives them their mistakes. Just as when you teach a child how to go to the potty, you clean up their messes as they learn.

however at a certain stage you expect them to understand what it takes to go to the restroom on their own.

When they are mature enough then God expects certain things from us. He expects us to clean up our messes. He wants to forgive people who hurt us. He expect us to because He has shown us forgiveness when we have hurt Him by our disrespect and disobedience.

Obedience is not needed to obtain salvation. God teaches us to LOVE His laws because in our heart we have the desire to obey, because in our minds we have the wisdom to know WHY we should obey and in our limbs we have learned self control to be able to follow through.

when a child is first learning to be potty trained will you tell them they are no longer your child if they don't make it to the potty?

why would God be more cruel then evil humans to His children?

 

[feedm3]

they don't have to DO anything if they had to DO to EARN it would be wages and not a gift, but I'll go read Hebrews 5 now.....

... ok lets see what you take from the chapter....

Okay lets see.

As for the gift, your saying if we do anything, as in obey, we are earning?

So you think if you obey God your earning something? Thats your mistake.

Luke 17:10 So likewise ye, when ye shall have done all those things which are commanded you, say, We are unprofitable servants: we have done that which was our duty to do

Also Ecc 12:13 - see my sig, same princple, we must fear God and keep his commands, because it is the DUTY of man.


So is keeping his commands according to this passage earning? Or doing a "duty"?

If we do our duty, are we earning?

If you say yes, then were those in Luke 17:10 worthy of their masters reward, because they did their DUTY and kept his commands?

If you say yes to that, then why did Jesus tell them they were still unprofitable servants?

Because he is teaching us when we obey we are NOT deserving of anything, we are only doing what is required of us.

If you know Jesus teaches this, and you know he explictily states that keeping his commands are a duty, adn we should be humble knowing we are not deserving,

Then why would you teach people if they are doing their duty they are earning salvation???? KNowing what is says here in luke 17, you should not be thinking obedience is a work, that is deserving of anything.

Yet you all ignore this and continue saying it is earning? That is flat our ignoring the lord.

It is evil for anyone to try to convince one who believe they must keep their duty to go to heaven, that he is trying to earn his way to heaven. PURE EVIL


I tell you this, because I care, you have fallen into satan's trap, of thinking you earning by keeping your duty.

Until you see the difference you will stay in error on this subject.

nope that chapter is about how Jesus suffered and was perfect in faith and saved people....

Very good, now how does that change what is stated in verse 9?

He is the author of salvation unto all that obey him? Just because you said what the chapter is about, does not take way the words of verse 9.

The chapter is showing you, He obeyed, you must too. And obedience is directly linked to salvation. you cant get around that.

its saying that suffering causes people to learn to be obedient.

Really? Is that all it said? Cause if you keep reading it also adds this:

"and being made perfect he Became THE AUTHOR OF THE SALVATION UNTO ALL THEM THAT OBEY HIM"

Like I said cant get around that. You still have not explained how this does not imply only the obedient will be saved.

Does it imply that? IF not, why not?

since we disagree on the premise of your statement, shouldn't we discuss that before continuing this dialog and can we do it on another thread?

Sure. which statement?

"you all" the clumping and false blanket statements begins.....or is it continues? I don't normally talk to you and I'm beginning to see why God never really placed it in my heart to dialog with you.

Look, being rude, and making personal comments, ONLY shows a digression, and makes it seem as if you dont want to deal with the arguments.

If you dont want to talk to me, then please dont. I an not making you respond, and just because I responded directly to you does not mean you have to respond back, especially with statements like this.

you mention it but with your other words it makes me wonder if you truly understand what it means to fall from grace and return to the law of Moses?

Okay explain it then, just telling me I do not understand, does nor proves anything.

if you want to continue arguing you will find plenty of people to indulge you,

Yes I see I have found one. You. All your doing so far is making accusation of what I dont understand, rudley saying things like why you see why God...etc, and now arguing with me that I just want to find people to argue with.

That does not even make sense. Of course, this is a thread, what is the point of all these statements, if you dont want to talk to me, nor argue with me?

If that's the case, then this is just immature.

however I don't have the time or patience. I only respond because you address me in Selenah's thread.

Please dont feel you have to. And again, then why are you? This is kind of ridiculous dont you think?

God's love is NOT earned its given freely. Salvation is through grace by faith. Faith is a gift of God which one can diligently add to virtue, knowledge, self control, brotherly kindness and love. with love being the mature/perfect state we should all strive to reach. love for the world as God loves us and them.

You just said you dont have time, dont want to, talk, and now your back to making an argument?

Okay, anyway, Many repeat this saying, without any knowledge of what it means. Faith is to be obeyed. The gift can be rejected, and it's through sin we do this.

Otherwise, there would be no such thing as "receiving the grace of God in vain" if it is a gift freely given. How can you ahve a gift given in vain? - II Cor 6:1

How can you fall from grace, if its a freely given gift that requires no action on our part?

How can grace teach us to be dead to sin, if it requires no action on our part? Tit 2:11-12

the difference between the LAW of sin and death and the Law of Grace is the HEART of the believer. it is the Heart that does it out of LOVE and not out of fear of losing salvation but out of the wisdom and understanding of God's plan for the world and our place in it that we as children of God obey Him.

If it is only done for love, and has nothign to do with losing salvation, then why does Paul convince the Christians to obey, so they dont have to face the wrath of God?

Why did the Lord tell those he spoke with "to repent or PERISH"? Luke 13:3

Why did the author of Hebrews warn Christians that if they sinned willfully they would be worthy of a much sorer punishment?
Heb 10:29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant

Why did Paul tell the Corinthians to obey knowing "the terror of the Lord" and the judgement that is coming?
II Cor 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad. 11 Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are made manifest unto God; and I trust also are made manifest in your consciences

Because he is trying to warn Christan not to be fooled by doctrines exactly what you are teaching.

Sure we obey because we love him - Jn 14:15

Yet that does not remove our fear of not obeying him.

I would never tell one that they should NOT strive to overcome their sins and believe everyone should strive to obey God.

Good.

However I protest those who say they can lose their salvation because they believe they can by their actions gain or lose it at all. its false. Salvation is a gift and learning to obey is a blessing.

We can reject salavtoin, you protesting it, does not change what we can read. Your actions can keep you from being in fellowship with God.

To think there is nothign you can do to separate your self from God, is ignoring all the warnings God has given you.

II Pet 2 has already been discussed, the false teachers actions of reverting back, caused them to fall from Grace.

I Pet 1:22 Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently

I Jn 1:7 John says "IF WE walk in the light as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another", this is conditional, hence the word "if".

So this shows it is by our actions we walk in the light, or we walk in darkness. Now if we choose darkness, and have no fellowship with him, can we expect salivation?

I Jn 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us

Many run to this passage as if it is teaching that we all continue in sin, and if we say we do not, we are liars.

That is far from what John is saying. He is saying, we must walk in the light, if we think we have no sin, and dont need God to cleanse us, we do not know the truth.

The truth teaches us we must be washed by the blood of Christ. ANd after, we must obey him in doing our duty, and his blood continues to cleanse us.

Our actions show our faith, without them our faith is dead. Our duty is to obey God, it "is the whole duty of man", we choose not to do our duty, then we choose darkness.

I would ask you the same as paul asked the Gal, who has deceived you that we dont have to obey the truth?

Now if one was never saved, or lost salvation, as I have said, I dont care which you believe, the fact is, Christians must obey God.

To think we dont have to is too take God's words and block them out.

Heb 5:9 is plain, the words are plain, the implication is plain.

I will ask you plainly,

Does "he is the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him" place salvation upon the obedient and imply condemnation for the disobedient?

anyway love you Selenah! as always you are in my prayers.

Thank you same to you.

 

[feedm3]

I have another view you have totally not mentioned.

I believe in God's grace. How He gives people faith and as they grow, He forgives them their mistakes. Just as when you teach a child how to go to the potty, you clean up their messes as they learn.

Sure, I agree, it's called repentance. We lean what sin is, we repent from it. The Bible never teaches anywehre that are sins are just little mistakes we do as we grow. That is purley man made, and that's why there is no scripture here to support that.

HEre is what the Bible does say:
31 Now we know that God heareth not sinners: but if any man be a worshipper of God, and doeth his will, him he heareth

Isa 591 Behold, the Lord 's hand is not shortened, that it cannot save neither his ear heavy, that it cannot hear:2 But your iniquities have separated between you and your God,and your sins have hid his face from you, that he will not hear

however at a certain stage you expect them to understand what it takes to go to the restroom on their own.

Yes, and sense we have the will of God written and unified, we have no exucse not to "grow up". If we choose to sin, and do not repent, the Bible tells us we will face the wrath of God - Heb 10:26-f

When they are mature enough then God expects certain things from us. He expects us to clean up our messes. He wants to forgive people who hurt us. He expect us to because He has shown us forgiveness when we have hurt Him by our disrespect and disobedience.

I agree with some of this, it still does not take away from what unrepentant sins does. It separates you from God.

Obedience is not needed to obtain salvation.

The Bible clearly disagrees with you. Again Heb 5:9 is plain, you never explained how this passage does not imply salvation is only to the obedient.

Next John 3:36 clearly disagree with you. If you use the KJV you need to read this verse in other translation, because there are two different Greek words here for believe and obey.

(ASV) He that believeth on the Son hath eternal life; but he that obeyeth not the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abideth on him.

(ESV) Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him.

(GNB) Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever disobeys the Son will not have life, but will remain under God's punishment.

Now please tell me how you read this passage, and at the sometime say obedience is not required? How do you read Heb 5:9 and say obedience is not required?

Rom 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
Rom 6:17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
Rom 6:18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.

You cant try to water these down, yet they mean what they say. II Pet 2 is still also explicitly stating, those who "reverted" back, were not saved.

There is nothign cruel about saying we must obey God. I would rather it be that all I have to do is believe, yet it is not.

Teaching this does not mean I think I am perfect, or that I am trying be better than others, as so many one here want to portray those who accept what the scriptures teach. I do not want to be fooled, or fool anyone. God's word is here, there wil be no excuse in the end for teaching false doctrine. It does not matter how sincere we act, how humble, God already warned each of us

James 3:1 be not many teachers my brethren no we will receive a heavier judgements.

How can teachers be judged more harsly, if Christians are not going to be judged?

This shows again, that teachers will be judged more strictly. Proves we will all be judged, even Christians, as peter said, "judgment must begin at the house of God".

None of these are speaking of an earthly judgement as I know many would love to water it down to. There is no such thing as earthly judgement for sin. That is for the second coming. That is when judgement will begin, and it will be by the words of this book (the bible) Jn 12:48.
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[Ariel82]

Your right, it does not matter, What separates you and me is I admit my sin, and acknowledge I am a wretched man who will never be worthy, for some reason you refuse to see your sin, and for this reason can not see how totaly wretched you truly are.


We are covered by the blood, yes, we SIN, I admit it, I sin all the time, but I AM covered by His blood.

There should be a pretty good logic flow to that, I would hope, and, I will pray, too.

Yes, we ARE wretched, Paul says that his own flesh does what he does not want it too, therefore, that is Paul SINNING. But, again, we are COVERED by the blood,the precious blood of the Lamb

hi Greenie, how are you this evening?

I have a great need to talk to someone who doesn't totally misunderstand what I'm saying.

sigh.... maybe in another thread?

I don't have a point to prove, I just have a life to live for the Glory of God.

I don't have time for pointless arguments where others place words I never said or even thought into my mouth. I prefer conversation about what I actually believe or have said.

but i guess today its too much to hope.

I'll go wander off and start another thread, if you have a chance greenie come talk to me there. love you bro.

(feeling kind of discouraged)