Can someone lose their salvation?

[psychomom]

Wrong teaching suggests that our sin does not effect our position with God however, the Bible teaches that our sin actually REFLECTS our position with God. Wrong teaching would lead us to believe that no sin can separate us from God however, scripture states that sin is the evidence of a heart that has already gone astray.

The Word has so much to say regarding our position to the Father in the Son, but I'll let this be sufficient:
But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus (Eph. 2:4-6)
That's our position to God based on the finished work of Christ, and it's just one example of many.

As far as our sin separating us from Him, surely you must have expected Romans 8:37-39?
But in all these things we overwhelmingly conquer through Him who loved us. For I am convinced that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers, nor height, nor depth, nor any other created thing, will be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
I think that list convers everything imaginable, including my own sin, or the sin of anyone who has been purchased by the blood of the Redeemer. (thank God!)

I do not mean to say that sin isn't serious business to be taken seriously. But what pertains to the lost is not the same as that which pertains to the believer.
I admire that you wish to exhort those in the Beloved to be obedient.
However, to say that our sin causes God to renege on His promises is to deny the power of the cross, and to say that our God is faithless.

grace and peace,
ellie

 

[Red33]

The Word has so much to say regarding our position to the Father in the Son, but I'll let this be sufficient:
But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus (Eph. 2:4-6)
That's our position to God based on the finished work of Christ, and it's just one example of many.

As far as our sin separating us from Him, surely you must have expected Romans 8:37-39?
But in all these things we overwhelmingly conquer through Him who loved us. For I am convinced that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers, nor height, nor depth, nor any other created thing, will be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
I think that list convers everything imaginable, including my own sin, or the sin of anyone who has been purchased by the blood of the Redeemer. (thank God!)

I do not mean to say that sin isn't serious business to be taken seriously. But what pertains to the lost is not the same as that which pertains to the believer.
I admire that you wish to exhort those in the Beloved to be obedient.
However, to say that our sin causes God to renege on His promises is to deny the power of the cross, and to say that our God is faithless.

grace and peace,
ellie

Ellie, beautifully expressed in the love of the truth from a heart that is filled with child-like faith.

Crossfire, unfortunately, has been diluted from the grace and truth we have in Christ and it is by his own doing because of the doctrine that he has given place to and allowed to enter into his mind and heart. It is just the those Jews that were addressed in Hebrews that had a difficult time coming unto the knowledge of the truth concerning the sacrifice of Christ. They had been coming along and were being drawn into the truth, but if they turned and fell away from what they had been enlightened, tasting of the good word and of the heavenly gift and made partakers of the conviction of the Holy Spirit, and went back to the old sacrifices it would be impossible to renew them to that place of repentance that they had come so that they could be saved and cleansed by the blood of Christ. This is the willful sin of going back to the old system after receiving the knowledge of the truth and rejecting the sacrifice of Christ and His blood that (Heb 10:26) is talking about. It has nothing to do with personal sin after believing in the power of God unto salvation. This has to do with the sacrifice of sin and willfully rejecting the blood of Christ and letting His sacrifice take them all the way to salvation and cleansing them of all sin once and for all.

I can not ascribe to anything this poster is speaking to because is goes against the cross and the blood of Christ and against justification we have by faith, by grace and by the blood. It is leaven and if we allow it to enter into our thinking it will leaven the faith and doctrine that we have been given through the Spirit of grace and truth that comes from our Lord Jesus Christ. It will eventually move our heart away from truth and get us to depart from the faith of the living God. AND ...the love of God that is shed in our heart by the Spirit of truth will die out and we will be left without continually being filled and bearing the fruit of the Spirit and we will live in the flesh trying to please God which is absolutely impossible to do.

 

[Crossfire]

The above poster is on a rampage concerning antinomianism because he does not know or understand the mercy and grace of God in relationship to the death, burial and resurrection of Christ and what was done to sin. He has a problem understanding positional truth and divine imputations that the believer receives BY GRACE THROUGH FAITH which are immutable and irreversible. When the believer is cleansed by the blood of Christ from all sin he is accepted by the Father on that basis and stands justified and perfect before a holy God as a continual state. The believer is presented by the Son, who is our advocate, to the Father through the imputed righteousness of the Son and not upon any of his own righteousness which is based upon the work of Christ and not upon any work of the believing sinner, not even repentance or penance.

There are a number of reasons for what might cause a believer to sin and let's not forget sins of omission and sins of the tongue, or the sin associated with a lack of faith that does not trust in the promises of God's word or to operate in love and wisdom when God has given it. These are all just as much sin as anything we might do outwardly that violates the moral conscience of some who live in the certain moral restraints but have a problem with judging others according to what violates their own consciousness of sin. Some people are so obsessed with the term 'willful sin' that they have to spiritualize it through a convoluted understanding because they don't understand the grace of God and use that term to 'unjustify' the believer, making the blood of Christ count for nothing and judging God to be unfaithful to those He has redeemed and purchased through that shed blood.

What was the willful sin that kept the wealthy young ruler from being saved and inheriting eternal life in (Mk 10:17-27)? Was it not in keeping all the commandments? Was it the wealth he refused to part with and give up? Was it unbelief or the fact that he did not follow Christ? OR was there some secret willful sin that he lived in that we don't know about? The disciples didn't know and Jesus hinted about being trusting in riches. Notice the disciples conclusion and Jesus response to it (v.26.27).

How could we have NT scriptures, inspired by the Holy Spirit, record in (2Pt2:7,8) that Lot was a JUST MAN, when his tendencies where toward Sodom and settled there after leaving his uncle Abraham (Gen 13:9-13). It was Lot's choice and he vexed his RIGHTEOUS SOUL every day with the conduct and conversation of the wicked people of Sodom (v.13). In (Gen 19) these wicked men of Sodom came to Lot's house to take the two men (angels), who entered the city, onto themselves to have sex with them (Sodomize) but in their stead Lot offered to his two daughters, who were virgins, to do with them what seemed good. Do you think this had any thing to do with willful sin on Lot's part when he offered his virgin daughters to these wicked and vile men of Sodom to fulfill their sexual appetites? Did these angels tell Lot that he needed to repent of this wickedness he imagined upon his daughters? Was it a righteous act on Lot's part...

... or when he escaped to Zoar in fear, losing his wife, and fled to the mountains with his daughters and allowed them to get him drunk with wine and unknowingly had incest with both and conceived sons (Moabites and Ammonites)? Where is the righteousness in all these things and was their nothing willful on Lot's part? Did the Holy Spirit's inspiration lead Peter to come to the wrong conclusion by calling him 'JUST LOT' (or justified Lot)? Lot was an example of a believer having God's positional righteousness, even when all these things had taken place as part of his life in Sodom and the surrounding regions.

Can anyone deny these things that are recorded in the scriptures? Are we going to be so ignorant of these things and allow ourselves to be led into arrogance and accuse God of not justifying the believer and securing the believer with His own righteousness imputed by faith and through faith? Are we not complete in Christ and have we not been justified from all sin through the sacrifice of Christ when we believed and trusted in Him? Has not our position in Christ (some 86 times in the book of Ephesians) been secured, sealed, covered, rooted and grounded in the work and shed blood of the new covenant of grace that came through Jesus Christ and Him crucified? Are we going to be foolish believers that do not take upon the faith of the Son of God who died and gave His life for sinners? Are we crucified with Christ or not? Have we been buried with Him or not? Have we been raised with Him or not? And if these things are true. and they are, shall we not be raised up in our bodies and ascend up to put on immortality and incorruption and have new bodies made like unto His glorified body? Shall we let foolish contrived intellectual doctrine take away the hope that we have been given in Christ concerning these things that have been given to the believer by promise and not by merit?

Red,

Not one word I said had anything to do with human works. I totally agree that human works, good or bad, can not effect our position with Christ. However, our works (good or bad) are the result (the evidence) of our existing position with Christ.

Christ stated himself stated that those who truly love Him will obey his ordinances. Do you truly understand the context of this statement? It was not a command as many perceive thus they dismiss it as legalism. Rather, it was a declarative, a statement that those who truly belong to Him will obey Him because they do indeed love Him.

Your problem is that you have become so anti-works minded that you are blinded, incapable of seeing what is truly being expressed and that is that sin is not the cause of separation from God but rather sin is the result of separation which has already occurred. To shed more light, sin is the evidence of heart whose affections have already strayed from God & given over to the desires of the flesh and the world.

Sin is the mirror (a reflection) of what truly lives in the heart of man and Christ's motivation behind His discourse in Matthew 12 which teaches us the difference between a good tree and a bad tree, good fruit and bad fruit.

What sad here Red is not once have you ever offered any biblical references to refute the position I've presented. Instead all your offer is a few scriptures which seemingly support your denominational perspective wrapped with slander against my character. May God have mercy on your carnal soul.

 

[Crossfire]

The Word has so much to say regarding our position to the Father in the Son, but I'll let this be sufficient:
But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus (Eph. 2:4-6)
That's our position to God based on the finished work of Christ, and it's just one example of many.

As far as our sin separating us from Him, surely you must have expected Romans 8:37-39?
But in all these things we overwhelmingly conquer through Him who loved us. For I am convinced that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers, nor height, nor depth, nor any other created thing, will be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
I think that list convers everything imaginable, including my own sin, or the sin of anyone who has been purchased by the blood of the Redeemer. (thank God!)

I do not mean to say that sin isn't serious business to be taken seriously. But what pertains to the lost is not the same as that which pertains to the believer.
I admire that you wish to exhort those in the Beloved to be obedient.
However, to say that our sin causes God to renege on His promises is to deny the power of the cross, and to say that our God is faithless.

grace and peace,
ellie

Ellie, neither of those verses contradict what I'm saying but merely add to it. We are seated in heavenly places because we have been given the ultimate gift, right fellowship with God through His Spirit. This allows us to literally partake of heaven even though we still live on earth. We can walk with Christ and talk with Christ, receiving instruction from Him because we now possess that same Spirit that dwelt in Him. Nothing can separate us from Him because because those who are truly His understand that there is nothing we can do that God won't forgive just as long as we are yielded to the guidance of the Holy Spirit. A humble heart and a contrite spirit the Lord will not despise. However, a both pridefulness and stubbornness are a stench in his nostrils.

Please understand, by no means am I attacking "once saved always saved" but rather attempting to refute licentiousness. We live in an hour when heretical teaching is creeping into all denominations in some form or another and unfortunately most are blinded to what's happening in their own household because they're too busy complaining about the neighbors.

 

[Crossfire]

If you guys will take notice, those who have liked or may left positive comments concerning the position that I have presented come from a variety of different denominations and / or backgrounds. However, those who are attempting to refute the position that I'm presenting have a common denominator, they have been exposed to a particular doctrinal position that makes allowances for sin.

Could it be that everyone else is wrong and this small minority is right? Or could it be that the perspective of those who make allowances for sin are spiritually blinded by the sin that they make allowances for? According to scripture, the later of the two appears far more probable.

 

[Crossfire]

The following passage of scripture provides a clear and concise example of true, biblical Grace, both how it is obtained and how it is appropriated:

Hebrews 4: 10 - 16

10 For he who has once entered [God’s] rest also has ceased from [the weariness and pain] of human labors, just as God rested from those labors peculiarly His own.

11Let us therefore be zealous and exert ourselves and strive diligently to enter that rest [of God, to know and experience it for ourselves], that no one may fall or perish by the same kind of unbelief and disobedience [into which those in the wilderness fell].

12 For the Word that God speaks is alive and full of power [making it active, operative, energizing, and effective]; it is sharper than any two-edged sword, penetrating to the dividing line of the breath of life (soul) and [the immortal] spirit, and of joints and marrow [of the deepest parts of our nature], exposing and sifting and analyzing and judging the very thoughts and purposes of the heart.

13 And not a creature exists that is concealed from His sight, but all things are open and exposed, naked and defenseless to the eyes of Him with Whom we have to do.

14 Inasmuch then as we have a great High Priest Who has [already] ascended and passed through the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our confession [of faith in Him].

15 For we do not have a High Priest Who is unable to understand and sympathize and have a shared feeling with our weaknesses and infirmities and liability to the assaults of temptation, but One Who has been tempted in every respect as we are, yet without sinning.

16Let us then fearlessly and confidently and boldly draw near to the throne of grace (the throne of God’s unmerited favor to us sinners), that we may receive mercy [for our failures] and find grace to help in good time for every need [appropriate help and well-timed help, coming just when we need it].

 

[Grandpa]

Red,

Not one word I said had anything to do with human works. I totally agree that human works, good or bad, can not effect our position with Christ. However, our works (good or bad) are the result (the evidence) of our existing position with Christ.

Christ stated himself stated that those who truly love Him will obey his ordinances. Do you truly understand the context of this statement? It was not a command as many perceive thus they dismiss it as legalism. Rather, it was a declarative, a statement that those who truly belong to Him will obey Him because they do indeed love Him.

Your problem is that you have become so anti-works minded that you are blinded, incapable of seeing what is truly being expressed and that is that sin is not the cause of separation from God but rather sin is the result of separation which has already occurred. To shed more light, sin is the evidence of heart whose affections have already strayed from God & given over to the desires of the flesh and the world.

Sin is the mirror (a reflection) of what truly lives in the heart of man and Christ's motivation behind His discourse in Matthew 12 which teaches us the difference between a good tree and a bad tree, good fruit and bad fruit.

What sad here Red is not once have you ever offered any biblical references to refute the position I've presented. Instead all your offer is a few scriptures which seemingly support your denominational perspective wrapped with slander against my character. May God have mercy on your carnal soul.

Only the reprobate and the false teacher dwell on peoples sin and try to use it as a wedge between people and God.

The Lord Jesus died specifically because we could not overcome sin on our own. If we could, the Law would have been enough for us. Why people who constantly dwell on sin don't seem to know this is rather odd.

Those who know the Lord Jesus Christ know what He has done for us and point to His Goodness and Love. What He has done for us He is willing to do for others too.

Those who Love the Lord will obey Him precisely because of the gift that the Lord has given them. The scriptures say not that we have love for God but rather His Love for us is what's important.

Our only option is to go to Him for our help. No matter what point you think you are at in your walk with God.

The Lord Jesus says without Him you can do nothing. But with God, all things are possible.

The act of telling someone that their sin separates them from God actually separates them from God if they listen to it. This is a trick, and its a good one. If you can be tricked into taking your eyes off of Jesus Christ, and instead start looking at your own self and your sin you can begin to backslide. Don't fall for it. Its garbage. Keep your eyes on the Lord Jesus.

 

[simplyme_bekah]

John 10:28 | Read whole chapter | See verse in context
And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
So No, you cannot lose your salvation because this verse tells you so.

 

[Abiding]

Red,

Not one word I said had anything to do with human works. I totally agree that human works, good or bad, can not effect our position with Christ. However, our works (good or bad) are the result (the evidence) of our existing position with Christ.

Christ stated himself stated that those who truly love Him will obey his ordinances. Do you truly understand the context of this statement? It was not a command as many perceive thus they dismiss it as legalism. Rather, it was a declarative, a statement that those who truly belong to Him will obey Him because they do indeed love Him.

Your problem is that you have become so anti-works minded that you are blinded, incapable of seeing what is truly being expressed and that is that sin is not the cause of separation from God but rather sin is the result of separation which has already occurred. To shed more light, sin is the evidence of heart whose affections have already strayed from God & given over to the desires of the flesh and the world.

Sin is the mirror (a reflection) of what truly lives in the heart of man and Christ's motivation behind His discourse in Matthew 12 which teaches us the difference between a good tree and a bad tree, good fruit and bad fruit.

What sad here Red is not once have you ever offered any biblical references to refute the position I've presented. Instead all your offer is a few scriptures which seemingly support your denominational perspective wrapped with slander against my character. May God have mercy on your carnal soul.

Crossfire...what red said to you was right on the money....you blew it big...you said position/standing
surely being so schooled. Should have known you stepped in it there.
Your were corrected after that a few times with scripture showing the error.

Couldnt you have just cleared it up by saying it was just a glitch and a use of a wrong word?
Instead you try to make it into a public personal problem and point the finger at Red?

 

[OFM]

John 10:28 | Read whole chapter | See verse in context
And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
So No, you cannot lose your salvation because this verse tells you so.

i agree see 1st. john 5:9-13.

 

[WolfInOxHide]

Can someone lose their salvation?

If you know salvation, you know the answer...

...That the saying might be fulfilled, which he spoke, Of them which you gave me have I lost none.

This says YHWH, your Elohim.

Peace.

 

[Crossfire]

Only the reprobate and the false teacher dwell on peoples sin and try to use it as a wedge between people and God.

The Lord Jesus died specifically because we could not overcome sin on our own. If we could, the Law would have been enough for us. Why people who constantly dwell on sin don't seem to know this is rather odd.

Those who know the Lord Jesus Christ know what He has done for us and point to His Goodness and Love. What He has done for us He is willing to do for others too.

Those who Love the Lord will obey Him precisely because of the gift that the Lord has given them. The scriptures say not that we have love for God but rather His Love for us is what's important.

Our only option is to go to Him for our help. No matter what point you think you are at in your walk with God.

The Lord Jesus says without Him you can do nothing. But with God, all things are possible.

The act of telling someone that their sin separates them from God actually separates them from God if they listen to it. This is a trick, and its a good one. If you can be tricked into taking your eyes off of Jesus Christ, and instead start looking at your own self and your sin you can begin to backslide. Don't fall for it. Its garbage. Keep your eyes on the Lord Jesus.

While God's grace is freely given, we can only access that grace through faith. If faith where not the prerequisite of grace, then there was no reason for Christ to come to earth and lay down his life.

Sin is the evidence of a heart that is being led astray. Allowing condemnation and / or refusing to acknowledge the convictions of the Holy Spirit through repentance is what drives the wedge. While this does not mean that God has given up on you, this does mean that you have given up on God thus faith has been depleted.

Without faith is it even possible to believe? How many understand that repentance is both an act (fruit) of faith & humility?

Unfortunately, far too many have been listening to the doctrines & sermons of sinful men than reading their Bibles.

 

[Crossfire]

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The act of telling someone that their sin separates them from God actually separates them from God if they listen to it. This is a trick, and its a good one. If you can be tricked into taking your eyes off of Jesus Christ, and instead start looking at your own self and your sin you can begin to backslide. Don't fall for it. Its garbage. Keep your eyes on the Lord Jesus.

With all due respect Grandpa, show me one incident where I stated that sin separates us from God? No one can because I didn't.

Many have completely missed my point and are making false accusations & baring false witness because of it, exposing their true spiritual condition in doing so.

 

[Abiding]

With all due respect Grandpa, show me one incident where I stated that sin separates us from God? No one can because I didn't.

Many have completely missed my point and are making false accusations & baring false witness because of it, exposing their true spiritual condition in doing so.

Crossfire Online
Senior Member

Join Date: August 31st, 2011
Age: 40
Posts: 2,218
Rep Power: 5

Re: Can someone lose their salvation?
Wrong teaching suggests that our sin does not effect our position with God however, the Bible teaches that our sin actually REFLECTS our position with God. Wrong teaching would lead us to believe that no sin can separate us from God however, scripture states that sin is the evidence of a heart that has already gone astray.


Theres one..do you want more?

 

[GreenNnice]

Crossfire Online
Senior Member

Join Date: August 31st, 2011
Age: 40
Posts: 2,218
Rep Power: 5

Re: Can someone lose their salvation?
Wrong teaching suggests that our sin does not effect our position with God however, the Bible teaches that our sin actually REFLECTS our position with God. Wrong teaching would lead us to believe that no sin can separate us from God however, scripture states that sin is the evidence of a heart that has already gone astray.


Theres one..do you want more?

Sin = seperation from God. So how does one not seperate from God? One does NOT sin. And, one 'born of God, does not sin,' 1 John 3:6 states. Why do they, of course, do wrong and not have it be sin? Because they KNOW they are covered by the Blood (of the Lamb). 'Course, we only lie of the Truth if we say we are without sin, for we all have it, 1 John 1 tells us, too.

If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 1 John 1:8

"None are righteous, not one." Romans 3:10

But, with Christ, we have His righteousness imputed, and, with His Spirit we have knowledge of ALL Truth. Scripture is CLEAR, squirrel, it can be NO other way

Pure and simple, giving, pulsating thought, even, eh, Christ peeps. YOU are covered by the Blood, but does this mean His Spirit will not lead you to sorrowful repentence of something done while UNDER His care? Of course not. He leads, YOU are to follow, and, LIVE fully in His grace, mercy, Love. So simple, and, so important, too, is the Spirit to EVERY believer's life. Intimately important, eternally important, and, dare I say, 'faithfully' important . The power of God in Jesus saved Him. Why does Scripture state the Spirit 'drove Him into the wilderness.' ??? He WAS needed for Jesus to prepare by His power, prayer, fasting, and, then, the biggee, withstanding the temptations of Satan. Now, as I said before, God was in control the whole time, but, of course, Satan didn't know, or , he would have never done the temptations. He learned a lot earlier in his life, don't you think, who was in control . Our God reigns !!

 

[1still_waters]

Crossfire Online
Senior Member

Join Date: August 31st, 2011
Age: 40
Posts: 2,218
Rep Power: 5

Re: Can someone lose their salvation?
Wrong teaching suggests that our sin does not effect our position with God however, the Bible teaches that our sin actually REFLECTS our position with God. Wrong teaching would lead us to believe that no sin can separate us from God however, scripture states that sin is the evidence of a heart that has already gone astray.


Theres one..do you want more?

Here's the link for easier referencing.

link--->http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/51001-believers-assurance.html#post812336

 

[Crossfire]

For the record, I did not say sin caused separation from God. Please read it again .... SLOWLY. It says that sin is the result of a heart that has already gone astray. In other words, sin is the result (the evidence) of a heart which has already strayed.

My statement is no different than Jesus' own proclamation in Matthew 5: 27 -28 where He states that a man who lusts after a woman in his mind has already committed adultery even though he never committed the physical act of adultery. Why wouldn't the same hold true with idolatry and the desires of this world?

James 1: 12 - 15

12 Blessed (happy, to be envied) is the man who is patient under trial and stands up under temptation, for when he has stood the test and been approved, he will receive [the victor’s] crown of life which God has promised to those who love Him.

13 Let no one say when he is tempted, I am tempted from God; for God is incapable of being tempted by [what is] evil and He Himself tempts no one.

14 But every person is tempted when he is drawn away, enticed and baited by his own evil desire (lust, passions).

15 Then the evil desire, when it has conceived, gives birth to sin, and sin, when it is fully matured, brings forth death.

 

[1still_waters]

For the record, I did not say sin caused separation from God.

False doctrines suggest that our sin does not effect our position with God

I don't see how these two statements are different.

 

[1still_waters]

For the record, I did not say sin caused separation from God.

Just to clarify.

Which of the following statements is true in your view?

1. Sin does cause separation from God.
2. Sin doesn't cause separation from God

 

[Abiding]

And the poor little boy had very little knowledge of what
would be appearing on the horizon for him in a little over a month.
Im already starting to squint